It has officially hit the fan...

[cho]

If you want the most recent Innocents killed..

A total of four people were killed and 12 were wounded in the attack, witnesses said.

[messiah]

Enter... Rantissi


Rantissi has considerable influence over the Palestinian public, in general and the Hamas operatives, in particular. He delivers sermons, addresses, and interviews utilizing extreme language, in which he calls for the continuation of the terrorist activity against the State of Israel and its citizens, opposing any cease fire. This serves as instructions to the field operatives in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank to continue their terrorist activity.

The Hamas leadership in Gaza is also involved in the recruitment and operation of terrorist cells among Israeli Arabs, which has so far, been thwarted by Israeli security forces. Rantissi was directly involved in directing and guiding this activity.

Rantissi is responsible for directing many terrorist attacks by Hamas, including the June 8, 2003, attack in which four Israeli soldiers were killed at the Erez Checkpoint in the Gaza Strip. Following this attack, Israel unsuccessfully attempted to assasinate Rantisi on June 10.

Public statements by Rantissi calling for and encouraging attacks against Israel:

January 2001: Rantissi, quoted on the Hamas website, calls to step up the painful strikes against the "Zionist enemy" in order to create a balance of deterrence and to bring about the expulsion of the enemy. He added that "what happened in Lebanon, will also happen in Palestine."

January 2001: Rantissi notes that it is clear to all that the military wing of Hamas, the Az a-Din Al Qassam, is responsible for military "operations" against the "Israeli occupation forces." Rantissi also calls for the continuation of the armed "Intifada," and states that [the hurling of stones] will not suffice.

April 2001: Rantissi admitted publicly that the Hamas fires mortars, and notes that in the future Israeli cities will be targeted.

May 2001: Rantissi calls on Hamas in Gaza to wage an all out war against Israel.

June 2001: Rantissi states on the Hamas website the intention to continue with suicide bombings. In addition, Rantissi praises the suicide bombers.

July 2001: Rantissi calls to strike every Israeli politician, especially Sharon and Peres (following the killing of Hamas operatives in Nablus) and noted that Az a-Din Al-Qassam operatives will respond.

March 2002: Rantissi, on the Hamas website, calls on the military wing of Hamas to carry out suicide attacks in Israel.

March 2002: During a television interview, Rantissi states that with"Allah's help," we will also kill Prime Minister Sharon.

April 2002: In an interview on the Hamas website following the terrorist attack in Adura, Rantissi states that this is the beginning of a cycle of revenge and that every drop of Palestinian blood will be avenged.

October 2002: During a television interview, Rantissi calls for the military wing of Hamas to carry out suicide bombings in all Israeli territory.

March 2003: Rantissi is quoted in a Reuters article following the attack on Macadma, as stating that a new phase in the war against the Jews has been initiated, and that all Israeli leaders are legitimate targets.

March 2003: An announcement by Hamas in the Gaza Strip calls for the Az a-Din Al Qassam to strike at Israeli ministers and Knesset members.

May 2003: Rantissi calls for the continuation of jihad (holy war) and "resistance" against Israeli soldiers, and states that this is "the only way to free the prisoners."

May 24, 2003: Rantissi, on Radio Teheran, states that the "Road Map" is a "scheme of Sharon's." Rantissi also notes that Sharon's acceptance of the "Road Map" is a conspiracy against the Palestinian nation and against the "resistance."

June 2003: Interviewed in "A-Sharq al-Awsat" newspaper, Rantissi stated that he does not know why Abu Mazen is optimistic about a cease-fire. He stressed that resistance to the "occupation" will continue. Additional statements by Rantissi regarding suicide bombings, including calls for such bombings against American targets:

On April 7, 2003, the Hamas website, quoted Rantissi discussing the suicide attack by two women against American soldiers in Iraq. Rantissi called for Muslims to blow themselves up against U.S. soldiers.

In a Reuters article on March 31, 2003, Rantissi notes that the Iraqi suicide bombings against American soldiers encourages Hamas to carry out suicide bombings against Israeli targets.

Rantissi and his associates opposed the creation of the new Palestinian government and flatly rejected any intention to cooperate with it to reduce violence.

On April 23, Rantissi tells a French news agency that this is not the time to establish a government, but rather, is the time for "jihad." Rantissi also notes that Hamas would accept a Government if it would tolerate terrorism against the Zionist entity, but would not support a government that did not allow terrorist activities.

In a March 30 interview to the above-mentioned agency, Rantissi states that Hamas would not accept a government which accepts Oslo and recognizes the State of Israel.

-oh yeah: copy and pasted for information purposes on the newly announced leader of Hamas. The information was taken from Here

On a side note however

With Isreal stating they are targeting leaders of Hamas, what do you think the response to the "job opening" was? haha. Rass was next in line and by far more vocally vigilante towards both the PLO and Isreal as a nation.

[Think]

I'm not going to read all that propoganda. I'm sure a Palestinian journalists could make a similar case in point about wacko Sharon.

I don't understand why all the sympathy towards Israel or in some rare cases - Palestine. There both a bunch of vixon of cancer on this planet.

[Norm]

Don't mistake any of my posts for support of either side please (anyone)

Neither side deserves my vote of approval. After so many years of tit for tat, they're both nuts to have allowed it to go on this long. I think present leaders, on both sides, are criminally insane.

It's not a onesided affair here, that's the message I wanted to convey.
Any of my posts that 'appear' to side with the Palestinians was more a counter to anyone siding with the Israelis.
(playing the devils advocate)

[nepenthe]

Originally posted by torsten
You're comparing situations that have very little in common when it comes to culture/religion/ideology. I think people forget how many of the opposing forces (that includes supporters, not just combatants) were killed in WWII - how devastated the defeated nations were. Sometimes that has to happen for people to accept defeat. The Palestinians have been offered peace initiatives for decades, always rejecting them and resorting to terrorism. For this they don't deserve more initiatives, they deserve to be smashed. IMO the Palestinians need to get a taste of their own medicine - RANDOM unceasing terror. In spite of the ridiculous contentions here that the Israelis actions are equivalent, they're NOT. Their strikes are in RESPONSE to terror and are typically surgical narrowly targeted attacks on combatants or terror leaders. Anybody that isn't willing to recognize that profound difference obviously has an agenda and can't be taken seriously about that issue.

The sentiment in the region IS irrational. "Native perspective?" You've got to be kidding me. That's exactly what's wrong with the way much of the world responds to such barbarian backward hostility. They appease it, or worse yet, let it emmigrate to their shores. Trying in vain to "understand" just where these theocrats, savages, and thugs are coming from is futile. Thankfully, no one seemed to give Hitler that kind of understanding after 1940. They deserve no more of it than the Nazis did. If they had Hitler's war machine, they'd use it. Instead they steal the weapons from societies with superior cultures (yep, read that right) and reek misery on innocents. I agree with someone earlier who said this IS WWIII. It's time we started treating it like it was.

By native perspective, I meant for you to consider life in the shoes of a Palestinian rather than a student in a Florida college (or a bald headed dentist ). Accuse them of barbarism, then remember the massacres commited by Americans and Europeans. Weapons from "superior cultures" are being sold to Middle East by these "superior cultures".

[JawZ]

Originally posted by nepenthe
By native perspective, I meant for you to consider life in the shoes of a Palestinian rather than a student in a Florida college (or a bald headed dentist ). Accuse them of barbarism, then remember the massacres commited by Americans and Europeans. Weapons from "superior cultures" are being sold to Middle East by these "superior cultures".

If this were going on in our backyard...we'd ban those weapons. You have a very fined tuned accumen on this subject David and I think that point pretty much sums it up. If we all wanted peace...there would be a drought of weapons....this situation is sort of like the police arming everyone in a domestic dispute.

[jayyy]

Originally posted by torsten
You're comparing situations that have very little in common when it comes to culture/religion/ideology. I think people forget how many of the opposing forces (that includes supporters, not just combatants) were killed in WWII - how devastated the defeated nations were. Sometimes that has to happen for people to accept defeat. The Palestinians have been offered peace initiatives for decades, always rejecting them and resorting to terrorism. For this they don't deserve more initiatives, they deserve to be smashed.

Don't really know what to say about that, other than it makes me sad and sick.

Israel has slaughtered an uncountable number of palestinians. Far more than palestine has israelis.

They've never been offered a reasonable offer of peace.

they steal the weapons from societies with superior cultures (yep, read that right) and reek misery on innocents. I agree with someone earlier who said this IS WWIII. It's time we started treating it like it was.

Thats the thinking process of Hitler. You believe in Racial superiority and crushing people that oppose with force.

You believe in an other. You don't believe are the same underneath it all people have a common humanity, or in treating people with the same respect you treat your own kind.

Thats what created this situation in the first place. Its people with thinking like yours that are responsible for a good deal of the misery in the world.

Ghosthunter,
You've made some excellent points above in the thread.

That pretty much speaks for itself.

[nepenthe]

Originally posted by jayyy
Israel has slaughtered an uncountable number of palestinians. Far more than palestine has israelis.

They've never been offered a reasonable offer of peace.

Actually the numbers are countable, and they are not pleasant. Neither has been the expulsion of Jews from Palestine before the creation of Israel. The right of return has been the sticking point. It is still in the minds of elder Palestinians who suffered a similar fate as their Jewish counterparts at the hands of the Ottomans and Jordanians.

Reasonable peace plans have been tendered, however it is the manner that made them unacceptable. Both sides are keen to have face in the end, claiming some form of victory and rubbing it in to the other. It is why mediation has not managed to bring about peace.

[knightmare]

hmm why was the spain bombings 911 days exactly, after the world trade center bombings, Why was the hamas leader killed exactly 11 days after the spain bombings?

I'll post the answers in another thread...

[Ghosthunter]

Originally posted by torsten
Unfortunately it can seem that way with the number of people pushing a certain view, but I hope you don't give up on it. You seem to have a more objective understanding of it than many. That view is needed.

Ghosthunter,
You've made some excellent points above in the thread.

Thanks!

[Ghosthunter]

Originally posted by Prey521
GH, you're wasting your time in this thread defending Israel, I'll support them, but not on SG anymore, it's pointless here.

many threads i am usually in the minor so i am use to it..LOL

[Ghosthunter]

Originally posted by knightmare
hmm why was the spain bombings 911 days exactly, after the world trade center bombings, Why was the hamas leader killed exactly 11 days after the spain bombings?

I'll post the answers in another thread...

hmm that is interesting..i did not realize it was 911 days after.

Very interesting

[Ghosthunter]

Originally posted by jayyy
That pretty much speaks for itself.

No clue what this means but sounds like you are very bitter about something.

[knightmare]

wow ghost hunter lol right now your posts are 7411

which is 7+4=11 & 11 how wild is that?

and right when i posted this the thread had 1111 views total

1111 views

i'm freaking myself out now...lol

[SeedOfChaos]

Originally posted by knightmare
wow ghost hunter lol right now your posts are 7411

which is 7+4=11 & 11 how wild is that?

and right when i posted this the thread had 1111 views total

1111 views

i'm freaking myself out now...lol

... and you registered in 2002, if you average that out you got 1111 as well OMG OMG OMG!!!

[nepenthe]

Originally posted by Ghosthunter
many threads i am usually in the minor so i am use to it..LOL

Everyone is entitled to their opinion . It is not that I completely disagree with your viewpoints on this manner. Like Evan, I would very much like to see some resolution, but this can only be accomplished by both sides understanding each others needs.

[knightmare]

and you registered in 2002, if you average that out you got 1111 as well OMG OMG OMG!!!

its called truth -seeds of chaos,
as weird and humorous as it may seem its very true.

As far as killing the leader of hamas, shoulda happened a long time ago,

guess the cia puppet arafat got scared he was gonna be replaced

i'd have my crosshairs on him next, he shoulda been bumped off in 72'.

[torsten]

Originally posted by nepenthe
By native perspective, I meant for you to consider life in the shoes of a Palestinian rather than a student in a Florida college (or a bald headed dentist ). Accuse them of barbarism, then remember the massacres commited by Americans and Europeans. Weapons from "superior cultures" are being sold to Middle East by these "superior cultures".

What makes you think I haven't tried to consider life in the shoes of a Palestinian --- the fact that my conclusions don't agree with yours? Massacres committed by Americans and Europeans? What far-reaching excuse-making. How many of those suicide bombers heading to Tel Aviv are doing it because they were victims of an American "massacre"? I've seen numerous profiles of these people. They're brainwashed zealots and religious fanatics.

I'm sure you're aware that there are valid reasons behind arming one side or another during a confict. I wasn't referring to Hussein getting a few missiles to fight Iran. When I said stealing, I had in mind commercial jets.

[torsten]

Originally posted by jayyy
Don't really know what to say about that, other than it makes me sad and sick. Israel has slaughtered an uncountable number of palestinians. Far more than palestine has israelis. They've never been offered a reasonable offer of peace.

Why do you say "they've never been offered a reasonable offer of peace"? Peace is almost a standing offer. Do you instead mean that they've not been offered everything they want? Palestine's problem isn't Israel, it's its own culture and distorted ideologies. Israel should not give an inch until the terror stops.

Originally posted by jayyy
Thats the thinking process of Hitler. You believe in Racial superiority and crushing people that oppose with force. You believe in an other. You don't believe are the same underneath it all people have a common humanity, or in treating people with the same respect you treat your own kind.

I have to say I'm very disappointed that you'd write that. Whatever your assumptions, I'm neither Israeli nor Jewish and have said nothing about anyone's race. NOTHING! Why would you just make up something like that? It's not like you at all. This issue is about culture, ideas, and actions - not skin. My position stands. The Israeli actions are narrowly targeted RESPONSES to terror. Palestinian actions are aggressions that tend to be of the put-a-bomb-on-a-bus variety. The "need to be smashed" comment comes from observing what's gone on during my lifetime. It's always the same old thing, and it's time to put a stop to it. The Palestinians have had their chance to stop the terror. They haven't and won't. Much of the population supports it.

BTW, it's all well and good to believe that all people are the same underneath and have a common humanity, but how are you to deal with those who have viciously abandoned that concept? Again, we're not talking about greeting your friendly next door neighbors, we have to deal with forces that have sworn to kill us and end our civilization.

And I'm not sure I have an "own kind." I'm just me.

Originally posted by jayyy
Thats what created this situation in the first place. Its people with thinking like yours that are responsible for a good deal of the misery in the world.

Not true. Just the opposite. It's people like you (apparently.... I hope I'm wrong) who make excuses for the misery (terror) and search for every excuse to avoid supporting those who try to do something to stop it. It's unfortunate, but sometimes there are people and groups that can't be dealt with through diplomacy. Did you misunderstand why I mentioned Hitler? How would you have advocated dealing with the Nazis in 1938? Do you think think the Chamberlain strategy was admirable or effective?

Originally posted by jayyy
That pretty much speaks for itself.

What? I can't agree with Ghosthunter about anything? Yeah, I know, we've locked horns on quite a few things, but he's right about this. I don't want to feel like I have to pick personal sides and always agree/disagree with the same people. It's my view that the commonly accepted political ideologies aren't a philosophically consistent group of positions. I can't be anyone else's definition of "a liberal" or "a conservative." When issues are discussed, for me it's about the ideas, not the people. I don't hate anybody around here.

[nepenthe]

Originally posted by torsten
What makes you think I haven't tried to consider life in the shoes of a Palestinian --- the fact that my conclusions don't agree with yours?

Might I suggest you reread your chauvinistic posts. It is painfully obvious that you have made little consideration as to sentiments of the Palestinians or the rest of the Middle East for that matter. There is a reason why they are attacking, torsten. You may twist your arguments in the wind all you like regarding the civility or cultural superiorities, it does not wash. I loathe the homicide bombings as much as anyone, then again I feel the same when I hear that civilians are being crushed under bulldozers and blown to bits by helicopter gunships and missiles.

Originally posted by torsten Massacres committed by Americans and Europeans? What far-reaching excuse-making.

Because my viewpoint differs from yours, I suppose.....

Originally posted by torsten How many of those suicide bombers heading to Tel Aviv are doing it because they were victims of an American "massacre"? I've seen numerous profiles of these people. They're brainwashed zealots and religious fanatics.

Many have witnessed or at least read of the massacres committed by Israeli soldiers. Some folks would argue that with our support, we too are culpable to the bloodshed. Yes, it is debatable

The funny thing about brainwashing, propagandism and other forms of mind control, is that the subject does not realize that he is a subject. He believes that he is armed with the truth. Anyone of us can be guilty of this.

Originally posted by torsten When I said stealing, I had in mind commercial jets.

Originally posted by torsten Instead they steal the weapons from societies with superior cultures (yep, read that right) and reek misery on innocents.

Which member of the of the 9-11 cell was Palestinian?

[torsten]

Originally posted by nepenthe
Might I suggest you reread your chauvinistic posts. It is painfully obvious that you have made little consideration as to sentiments of the Palestinians or the rest of the Middle East for that matter. There is a reason why they are attacking, torsten. You may twist your arguments in the wind all you like regarding the civility or cultural superiorities, it does not wash.

I've reread the posts. It's the word superior that got to you isn't it? When one team wins a basketball game and the reporter gives the actual score, is it chauvinism? It's certainly an acknowledgment of hierarchy *horror of horrors*. But such factual observations about culture seem destined for all sorts of nasty reactions. "Chauvinistic" certainly doesn't apply to me just because my posts have taken one side in this matter. If you've read my other posts around here you're aware that I don't attach much sentiment to my country for its own sake. I don't salute flags or say pledges of allegiance, and I find most people's idea of "patriotism" to be mindless cheerleading. But if my stance on Israel vs Palestine causes you to apply that term, perhaps you belong to the extreme in the other direction..... those who see the reluctance to take a firm position, no matter how obvious the situation (especially in support of the United States), as a badge of enlightenment. I don't know the correct word for that view..... perhaps relativist. I hope you don't think that way, but I've seen a lot of it around here, and I don't know how to otherwise account for the condescension. I can assure you, however, that relativists don't have a monopoly on insight.

You say there are REASONS why they are constantly deliberately killing as many innocents as possible. Hmmmm. Actually everyone has reasons for what they do, but I'm more interested in whether they're valid. I don't recall your putting up as much a defense for Timothy McVeigh. As I remember, he had reasons too - well articulated ones that were aligned pretty closely with the concerns of some prominent politicians. I've spent years listening to the news about Palestine. They (anyone from Arafat to professors, to the man in the street) have been stating their reasons ad nauseum for that duration. Believe me, I've heard it. It's the same old ethic/religious resentment and hatred couched in the language of borders for the TV cameras. After all of it, I'm convinced that further negotiations, initiatives, and plans will be about as effective as telling a charging lion to "stop that this instant."

Originally posted by nepenthe
I loathe the homicide bombings as much as anyone, then again I feel the same when I hear that civilians are being crushed under bulldozers and blown to bits by helicopter gunships and missiles.

You still aren't acknowledging the only point that really counts here: The fact that civilian deaths at the hands of Israelis are not the intended target, while those at the hands of Palestinians are deliberate. One side tries to avoid hurting innocents; one tries to inflict as much carnage on them as possible. If you won't make that basic distinction and understand its fundamental importance, there's no real point in discussing this.

Originally posted by nepenthe
The funny thing about brainwashing, propagandism and other forms of mind control, is that the subject does not realize that he is a subject. He believes that he is armed with the truth.

What are you getting at here? Moral culpability? A pit bull attacking a baby doesn't realize the full extent of the situation either, but I doubt that would stop you from shooting the dog if the baby were your own. If you were on one of the sept 11 flights, would your thoughts have been, oh... the poor things have been brainwashed? Or would you have tried to end their existence before they ended yours?

Originally posted by nepenthe
Which member of the of the 9-11 cell was Palestinian?

Read the whole paragraph. It begins... "the sentiment in the region is irrational." I was speaking in more general terms than just Palestinians. Surely you've had occasion to read one of my rants about fundamentalism whether manifested by Al Qaeda, the Palestinians , or the Iranian govt.

[downhill]

lol....good one. A bit of reaching if I do say so myself.

torsten...what finally put the Hatfield and McCoy war to rest? It wasn't one side taking out the other......

[Ghosthunter]

Here is a perfect example:

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/ ... 4101c.html

Sent to die

They promised the boy $22 and 72 virgins

By DEBORAH BLACHOR in Jerusalem and CORKY SIEMASZKO in New York
DAILY NEWS WRITERS


Would-be suicide bomber Hussam Abdu, 14.

A Palestinian boy bomber who was given $22 and promised 72 virgins in paradise was forced at gunpoint by Israeli soldiers to strip and remove the explosives strapped to his body.
"Do I have to take my clothes off here?" Hussam Abdu, 14, asked as soldiers yelled orders from behind barricades at a West Bank checkpoint.

The soldiers insisted.

"He panicked, lifted his hands and a tragedy was prevented because he did not manage to detonate the explosive," said Lt. Col. Guy, commander of the paratrooper unit.

It was around 3 p.m. when Abdu walked up, wearing an oversized red jacket. The soldiers were suspicious and ordered him to raise the jacket, revealing a gray vest packed with explosives.

"We could see that there was something on under his jacket," said one of the paratroopers.

They ordered Abdu to take off his clothes, one item at a time - a suspenseful striptease caught on camera.

When Abdu had stripped down to his underpants, the soldiers used a yellow, remote-controlled robot to deliver a pair of scissors to cut off the vest.

"Lift your right hand and reach out to grab the scissors with the left," one yelled.

The frightened boy did as he was told, and after struggling with the scissors he was free of his deadly payload.

"He said he didn't want to die," said another soldier who was at the checkpoint. "He didn't want to blow up."

Abdu was bundled in a green hooded parka and rushed off to safety while the vest was taken away and safely detonated.

The boy later told investigators that Tanzim - a militant group affiliated with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement - told him that the only way he would ever have sex was to blow himself up.

They also promised to give 100 shekels to his mother, who is ill. The boy said he wanted to be "a hero."

"This is another example of the atrocious tendency of the Palestinians to sacrifice their own children for the purpose of attacking innocent Israelis," said government spokesman David Baker.

Abdu's neighbors in Nablus said the boy belonged to the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a militant group.

His family, however, said Abdu was no terrorist.

Israeli soldiers are increasingly on the lookout for kiddie bombers.

They recently caught a 10-year-old Palestinian boy carrying explosives through the same roadblock. But unlike Abdu, Abdallah Quran apparently did not know the package he was paid $1 to carry was explosives. Both boys are students at the same school.

It is bad enough that they use suicide bombers to intentionally kill innocent, but to use children to carry out their acts?

[jayyy]

Originally posted by torsten
I'm neither Israeli nor Jewish and have said nothing about anyone's race. NOTHING! This issue is about culture, ideas, and actions - not skin.

Inferior society? Thats deeply, deeply racist. If you claimed the same thing about Puerto Ricans or africans you'd be strung up by your ears.

The Israeli actions are narrowly targeted RESPONSES to terror.

Bull****. The Isralis commited a terrorist act. They are, by definition, terrorists. You don't see it as such. When or If the Palestinians succeed in killing an israeli leader in revenge, suddenly you will.

The Israelis have killed far more palestinians They've slaughtered hundreds of women and children in a single sweep in their "Narrowly targeted 'responses'".

Why is terror when one does it and the other doesn't?

Why would you advocate rutheless murder of the civillian population in this case? Would you suggest it in the case of, say, the catholic IRA? Should the British have murdered Irish in cold blood in response to terrorism? Whats the difference?

Oh, thats right, one is an "inferior society".

Utterly disgusting hypocrisy. Beneath contempt.

BTW, it's all well and good to believe that all people are the same underneath and have a common humanity, but how are you to deal with those who have viciously abandoned that concept?

LIKE YOU.

[Ghosthunter]

Originally posted by jayyy
Inferior society? Thats deeply, deeply racist. If you claimed the same thing about Puerto Ricans or africans you'd be strung up by your ears.



Bull****. The Isralis commited a terrorist act. They are, by definition, terrorists. You don't see it as such. When or If the Palestinians succeed in killing an israeli leader in revenge, suddenly you will.

The Israelis have killed far more palestinians They've slaughtered hundreds of women and children in a single sweep in their "Narrowly targeted 'responses'".

Why is terror when one does it and the other doesn't?

Why would you advocate rutheless murder of the civillian population in this case? Would you suggest it in the case of, say, the catholic IRA? Should the British have murdered Irish in cold blood in response to terrorism? Whats the difference?

Oh, thats right, one is an "inferior society".

Utterly disgusting hypocrisy. Beneath contempt.




LIKE YOU.

wonder how many of those palestinians statistics were killed by their own suicide bombs?


I bet they dont include that in their own number?


I also dont think you understand the definition of terrorism.

[SeedOfChaos]

Originally posted by Ghosthunter
I also dont think you understand the definition of terrorism.

Main Entry: ter·ror·ism
Pronunciation: 'ter-&r-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1795
: the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
- ter·ror·ist /-&r-ist/ adjective or noun
- ter·ror·is·tic /"ter-&r-'is-tik/ adjective

(http://www.britannica.com/dictionary?bo ... =terrorism)

and...

Main Entry: ter·ror
Pronunciation: 'ter-&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French terreur, from Latin terror, from terrEre to frighten; akin to Greek trein to be afraid, flee, tremein to tremble -- more at TREMBLE
Date: 14th century
1 : a state of intense fear
2 a : one that inspires fear : SCOURGE b : a frightening aspect <the terrors of invasion> c : a cause of anxiety : WORRY d : an appalling person or thing; especially : BRAT
3 : REIGN OF TERROR
4 : violence (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands <insurrection and revolutionary terror>

(http://www.britannica.com/dictionary?bo ... &va=terror)

So... if I try to take these two definitions and replace "terror" in the definition of "terrorism" with the most logical meaning of "terror" to get away from the root of the words (using the same root as a description isn't really helpful, is it?) , I get...

"Terrorism is the the systematic use of a state of intense fear especially as a means of coercion"

I think Jayyy understands this one quite well, and did so before I made this post. What he is getting at is that the Israelis pretty much do the same thing. How is Israeli-style bulldozing of civilian buildings not terrorism?

(the following is aimed more towards Torsten)I am not defending terror, merely stating that both sides do it. And the "reaction" argument is REALLY a moot point, as both sides do it on a constant basis and both claim the "reaction" bit. It is, because it's all one huge chain reaction. One is sanctioned by the Israeli government and carried out by the official Israeli military, the other is sanctioned by the Palestinian authorities and carried out by their militia, because they don't have an official army. Do you think Israel would allow them their own army?!?!? Both kill innocent people. And both fully calculate the terror effect this has. I'm quite sure Hamas would LOVE to bomb Sharon into bits and pieces instead of innocent civilians. It would be irrational to assume anything else. The thing just is... they can't. Because they don't have the comparatively unlimited resources of Israel. Please do tell me why you accept the Israeli claim that it's a reaction while dismissing the Palestinians claiming the same.

If Israel truly meant to target no civilians, they wouldn't be using missiles with lots of explosives while knowing that their targets are in residential areas. Bombs are much less selective weapons than machine guns, and even those aren't in all situations. I think the Israelis are WELL aware of this fact. IMO it makes no sense to deny that Israel is also deliberately killing innocent Palestinians, and especially "Sharon" should ring more than one bell in this context. If "Sabra" and "Shatila" don't ring a bell right now, please take the time to google it. How do his actions and inactions NOT match "the systematic use of a state of intense fear especially as a means of coercion"?

Sorry, but I can't see a culture who votes someone like Sharon for president as "superior" to a culture like the Palestinian having Arafat as their leader. And yes, the use of "superior" in the context with cultures bugs me quite a bit, but that's a whole different story. So should we smash Israel because they're "inferior", too? How about the US? Should Europe smash the US in case we truly believe your culture to be "inferior" to ours? What universally accepted standard are you applying to measure "superior" and "inferior"? I think that standard is quite important, if you want to "smash" the "inferior cultures"...

I think we'll end up agreeing to disagree. But maybe both you Torsten and Jayyy could take the personal attacks out of your posts, quite unecessary guys.

[torsten]

Originally posted by jayyy
Inferior society? Thats deeply, deeply racist.

To say that is just lying. A society is not about skin color or dna. Societies are differentiated by their cultures... that is, by the way people live -- their habits, belief systems and actions. Artificially injecting race into such a discussion is a cheap tactic to insulate cultural practices from valid scrutiny. It's you who seem to be obsessed with race here.

Originally posted by jayyy
Bull****. The Isralis commited a terrorist act. They are, by definition, terrorists. You don't see it as such. When or If the Palestinians succeed in killing an israeli leader in revenge, suddenly you will.

Are you so angry and ideological that you don't have the capacity for making distinctions about this? The guy they killed was a leader/founder of Hamas, a terrorist organization, not some legitimately elected leader of a democratic nation. Again, it is in RESPONSE to terror. They are acting against the aggressors.

Originally posted by jayyy
The Israelis have killed far more palestinians They've slaughtered hundreds of women and children in a single sweep in their "Narrowly targeted 'responses'". Why is terror when one does it and the other doesn't?

Are you talking about Jenin? The facts that came out about that incident were far different from what was claimed in the anti-Israeli world press. As for why an action is terror or isn't, again, consider the goal and intent. You're not incapable of understanding that. It's pretty obvious that one side is engaging in terror and the other is trying to stop it, but those facts don't help the side you're trying to support.

Originally posted by jayyy
Why would you advocate rutheless murder of the civillian population in this case? Would you suggest it in the case of, say, the catholic IRA? Should the British have murdered Irish in cold blood in response to terrorism? Whats the difference?

Ruthless murder of the civilian population? That sounds more like genocide than war. I simply mean that those who support the terrorism that the Palestinians are carrrying out should face the consequences of what they're doing. That means war. If they faced the prospect of their own demise, maybe there would be a change of attitude. I don't want to causelessly wipe out anyone. I want to stop the terrorism. And if the only way to stop terrorism is to kill terrorists and their supporters, that's what a nation must do to protect itself.

Originally posted by jayyy
Oh, thats right, one is an "inferior society".
Utterly disgusting hypocrisy. Beneath contempt.

Ah... so we're getting to it. Seems the ultimate sin is to make a distinction about culture. If you honestly think making conclusions about whether or not there are better ways to live life, is "beneath contempt," you seem to have lost your capacity for judgment. Yes, I spend quite a bit of my time around a major American university and as such I'm constantly bombarded with the all-cultures-are-equally-good BS propaganda. But fortunately, I have a mind of my own and can incorporate the perspectives of history and observe the results of current societies and come to more objective conclusions. The Israelis have created a democratic and prosperous society in a very short time. The Palestinians have made a mess. The sad thing is that they seem determined to keep it that way.

[torsten]

Originally posted by SeedOfChaos
(the following is aimed more towards Torsten) I am not defending terror, merely stating that both sides do it. And the "reaction" argument is REALLY a moot point, as both sides do it on a constant basis and both claim the "reaction" bit. It is, because it's all one huge chain reaction. One is sanctioned by the Israeli government and carried out by the official Israeli military, the other is sanctioned by the Palestinian authorities and carried out by their militia, because they don't have an official army. Do you think Israel would allow them their own army?!?!? Both kill innocent people. And both fully calculate the terror effect this has. I'm quite sure Hamas would LOVE to bomb Sharon into bits and pieces instead of innocent civilians. It would be irrational to assume anything else. The thing just is... they can't. Because they don't have the comparatively unlimited resources of Israel. Please do tell me why you accept the Israeli claim that it's a reaction while dismissing the Palestinians claiming the same.

I understand that you aren't defending terror. I wouldn't make that claim. But you are equating terrorism with response to terror. Both sides do not do it. That's the point where we're probably not going agree. If you won't acknowledge the difference between blowing up a bus and going after the people who mastermind it, how can I make you acknowledge it? It doesn't matter that each side claims it is reacting. Claims are made strategically to influence world opinion. Confusing the issue of blame is a common tactic to avoid actually identifying the source of a problem. It's the same reason I'm infuriated by the all too typical response to playground conflict. One kid intimidates and torments another constantly, then finally when it becomes physical, some idiot teacher who's been watching all along comes in and says, "both of you stop fighting and go to the Principal's office." That sets a very bad principle for accountability. The same can be said for nations and terror groups.

Since you don't approve of my view of terror and response, I'll pose a question to you: What do you think is the proper response to forces like Al Qaeda and Hamas? If you can't go after them without being called a terrorist yourself, what exactly would you do? Meet all their demands and wait for the next demand?

Originally posted by SeedOfChaos
If Israel truly meant to target no civilians, they wouldn't be using missiles with lots of explosives while knowing that their targets are in residential areas. Bombs are much less selective weapons than machine guns, and even those aren't in all situations. I think the Israelis are WELL aware of this fact. IMO it makes no sense to deny that Israel is also deliberately killing innocent Palestinians, and especially "Sharon" should ring more than one bell in this context. If "Sabra" and "Shatila" don't ring a bell right now, please take the time to google it. How do his actions and inactions NOT match "the systematic use of a state of intense fear especially as a means of coercion"?

There's no way I can confidently say what specific stretegies are most effective at taking out specific terrorist leaders in specific situations. I'd need up to the minute military intelligence info. But I would think that at times bombs may be more effective. Now if the message Palestinians receive from last week is don't associate with terrorist groups and leaders because you might get blown up with them, then that's not such a bad message.

As for Sabra and Shatila, it is my understanding that Isreal had no direct role in that. Wasn't there an ongoing process to transfer some authority to lebanese groups? When that happened, the subsequent violence was committed by a Lebanese militia. Is that not so? To me, it's stretching things to blame that on Israel, no matter how much scapegoating went on afterward to satisfy the usual anti-Israeli world opinion. Let's not forget that "camps" like that tend to be used by terror groups as launching grounds for terrorist actions -- not that the press will emphasize it of course.

Originally posted by SeedOfChaos
Sorry, but I can't see a culture who votes someone like Sharon for president as "superior" to a culture like the Palestinian having Arafat as their leader. And yes, the use of "superior" in the context with cultures bugs me quite a bit, but that's a whole different story. So should we smash Israel because they're "inferior", too? How about the US? Should Europe smash the US in case we truly believe your culture to be "inferior" to ours? What universally accepted standard are you applying to measure "superior" and "inferior"? I think that standard is quite important, if you want to "smash" the "inferior cultures"...

First of all, your judgment of Sharon simply mirrors your similar refusal to make distinctions about the nature of terrorism. I have no problem with Sharon. Electing someone who will fight, rather than negotiate and capitulate with terrorists, is a rather rational political decision. Yes, I know it pisses off the terrorists, their apologists, the anti-Israelis, and the entire international relativist do-nothing feel-goodism cabal. Boo hoo.

As for cultures, I'm disappointed that you'd deliberately twist my points and set up arguments that I didn't make. No one advocated smashing a society because of inferiority. The responses I advocate are due to years of unceasing terrorism. If the Palestinians weren't doing this, there would be no reason for action.

Originally posted by SeedOfChaos
I think we'll end up agreeing to disagree. But maybe both you Torsten and Jayyy could take the personal attacks out of your posts, quite unecessary guys.

Ah.... real objective there. I hadn't mentioned jayyy or said anything about race, but he came out of nowhere to label me a racist and compare me to Hitler. I'd say that's far more personal than anything I'd said (especially since I hadn't said anything to him). Yet you feel compelled to equate by saying "maybe both you Torsten and Jayyy could take the personal attacks out of your posts, quite unecessary guys." "BOTH"???? No wonder you can't make distinctions about Israelis and Palestinians. Its seems you come from an ideological perspective where everyone must share blame and guilt equally no matter what the facts.

[torsten]

Arrrrgh !!!
I can certainly see the reasons behind the point Prey521 made earlier. When it's 3 against 1, it's just too much work for the 1. I like to respond thorougly to anyone who addresses me, but my time is limited. Unfortunately some of the contentions around here may have to go unchallenged because of the sheer volume.

[JawZ]

Torsten,

When the Israeli government plans a "response to terrorism", they know for a fact that the operation will incur civilian casulties.

Palestine has no recognized military, therefore, there are no recognized military targets. The PLO/Hamas terrorists live amongst the general civilian population. When Isrtael strikes, civilians die...always. They know this and accept it as such therefore it makes them no better.

So this response to terror theory that you have ...doesn't work. This is why the circle of violence does not end. The PLO/Hamas is only concerned with "victory" while the Israeli government is only concerned with their security. Neither is concerned with humanity.

[Ghosthunter]

Originally posted by UOD
Torsten,

When the Israeli government plans a "response to terrorism", they know for a fact that the operation will incur civilian casulties.

Palestine has no recognized military, therefore, there are no recognized military targets. The PLO/Hamas terrorists live amongst the general civilian population. When Isrtael strikes, civilians die...always. They know this and accept it as such therefore it makes them no better.

So this response to terror theory that you have ...doesn't work. This is why the circle of violence does not end. The PLO/Hamas is only concerned with "victory" while the Israeli government is only concerned with their security. Neither is concerned with humanity.

i guess the united states are terrorists as well?? since we did invade iraq and did know that civlians would get killed, even though our main goal is not out to get the civlians?

[torsten]

Originally posted by UOD
When the Israeli government plans a "response to terrorism", they know for a fact that the operation will incur civilian casulties.

As is the case with most military actions. Although we have the capacity to make war cleaner than it used to be, we're still not at the level that we can protect all civilians.

Originally posted by UOD
Palestine has no recognized military, therefore, there are no recognized military targets. The PLO/Hamas terrorists live amongst the general civilian population. When Isrtael strikes, civilians die...always. They know this and accept it as such therefore it makes them no better.

No better? Are you aware that following that logic can put the forces you serve in in the same position? If a military action isn't totally clean, you're then "no better" than the terrorists or enemies you're fighting. I of course don't buy that at all. My guess is you really don't either, otherwise how could you be a member of such a force?

What did you think of WWII? Pretty nasty wasn't it? I think there were a few civilian casualties. Of course if Churchill, Roosevelt knew that any of their actions would cause civilian casualties, and approved them despite that..... that makes them "no better" than the other side. Do you really believe that?

Originally posted by UOD
So this response to terror theory that you have ...doesn't work. This is why the circle of violence does not end. The PLO/Hamas is only concerned with "victory" while the Israeli government is only concerned with their security. Neither is concerned with humanity.

Huh? Isn't being concerned with their security (protecting their population from terrorism), being concerned with humanity? Again, if the terror stops, the Israeli actions will stop. If Israeli military actions stopped (as they have for significant periods of time) the terror doesn't stop. You know this. The sides are NOT equivalent no matter how elevated and enlightened it may make you feel to say so.

[jayyy]

Originally posted by torsten
The Israelis have created a democratic and prosperous society in a very short time.

Bull****. Israel is a hunk of rock that exists only through the military power of the united states. They forced their way onto the land, slaughtered thousands to clear the way, and routinely slaughter palestinian women and children in the gaza strip. I've met israeli soldiers that have done it. there are tons of young israelis in Thailand, and they all served in the army through conscription. Without US aid they would have nothing.

The sides are NOT equivalent no matter how elevated and enlightened it may make you feel to say so.

Well, you're actually right about this. Fundamentalism has been taken to the extremes where palestinians are taking their lives to continue fighting, and Israel has still committed far more terrorism and taken far, far more lives. To say "Do they count their suicide bombers in their deathcounts?" shows a disgusting amount of ignorance on your part.

Yes, I spend quite a bit of my time around a major American university and as such I'm constantly bombarded with the all-cultures-are-equally-good BS propaganda.

You need to get off your god-damn university campus. There are a lot of muslims in the part of the world I'm in, and by and large they're usually friendlier than the non-muslims.

You advocate the extermination of these people, and label overt terrorism and genocide of their ranks as "rational reactions" by a "superior society", and you expect me to believe you're bombarded by PC Propoganda???


Utterly revolting.

[jayyy]

Originally posted by Ghosthunter
i guess the united states are terrorists as well?? since we did invade iraq and did know that civlians would get killed, even though our main goal is not out to get the civlians?

Yes. They broke all international law to do what they did, and have nothing to show for it. The united states are regarded as no better or worse than the official terrorists internationally.

Its international relationships are in shambles. Polls have shown most to consider George Bush the world's greatest threat to world peace. That goes far beyond the muslim population

The UN voted to keep doing inspections, those lying pieces of **** moved in anyway, found nothing, and came back to the UN to beg fortroops and money after calling them irrelevant.

Now the truth is being exposed. We know the US's leads on links to Al Qaeda were distorted lies and that they never had the proof of WMD they claimed to have.


A bully that does whatever it wants and kills whoever it wants to get its way through fear and coercion without any respect for the law or peace is a terrorist.

[SeedOfChaos]

Originally posted by torsten
I understand that you aren't defending terror. I wouldn't make that claim. But you are equating terrorism with response to terror. Both sides do not do it. That's the point where we're probably not going agree. If you won't acknowledge the difference between blowing up a bus and going after the people who mastermind it, how can I make you acknowledge it? It doesn't matter that each side claims it is reacting. Claims are made strategically to influence world opinion. Confusing the issue of blame is a common tactic to avoid actually identifying the source of a problem. It's the same reason I'm infuriated by the all too typical response to playground conflict. One kid intimidates and torments another constantly, then finally when it becomes physical, some idiot teacher who's been watching all along comes in and says, "both of you stop fighting and go to the Principal's office." That sets a very bad principle for accountability. The same can be said for nations and terror groups.

I am acknowledging a distinction between blowing up a bus and going after the masterminds. However, leveling city blocks with people still in the houses is not much different. These kind of actions was what I was talking about.

Since you don't approve of my view of terror and response, I'll pose a question to you: What do you think is the proper response to forces like Al Qaeda and Hamas? If you can't go after them without being called a terrorist yourself, what exactly would you do? Meet all their demands and wait for the next demand? There's no way I can confidently say what specific stretegies are most effective at taking out specific terrorist leaders in specific situations. I'd need up to the minute military intelligence info. But I would think that at times bombs may be more effective. Now if the message Palestinians receive from last week is don't associate with terrorist groups and leaders because you might get blown up with them, then that's not such a bad message.

since there was a misunderstanding earlier, this is a moot point. I never meant that you shouldn't go after terrorists. It's how you do it though that makes a difference. IMO there are different ways than those employed by Israel that should be favored. Of course I'm no expert on this, but I'm quite sure things could be done with a little less "collateral damage".

As for Sabra and Shatila, it is my understanding that Isreal had no direct role in that. Wasn't there an ongoing process to transfer some authority to lebanese groups? When that happened, the subsequent violence was committed by a Lebanese militia. Is that not so? To me, it's stretching things to blame that on Israel, no matter how much scapegoating went on afterward to satisfy the usual anti-Israeli world opinion. Let's not forget that "camps" like that tend to be used by terror groups as launching grounds for terrorist actions -- not that the press will emphasize it of course. First of all, your judgment of Sharon simply mirrors your similar refusal to make distinctions about the nature of terrorism. I have no problem with Sharon. Electing someone who will fight, rather than negotiate and capitulate with terrorists, is a rather rational political decision. Yes, I know it pisses off the terrorists, their apologists, the anti-Israelis, and the entire international relativist do-nothing feel-goodism cabal. Boo hoo.

Well, yeah, there was no direct involvement, as you put it. AFAIK though, the Lebnese militia was more or less under Sharon's command, and he let those events happen. Those camps being launching pad for terrorist strikes doesn't really justify killing the women and children who have nothing to do with terrorism in it as well, does it? IMO, if you can prevent such a slaughter, you are required to do so. Sharon didn't.

As for cultures, I'm disappointed that you'd deliberately twist my points and set up arguments that I didn't make. No one advocated smashing a society because of inferiority. The responses I advocate are due to years of unceasing terrorism. If the Palestinians weren't doing this, there would be no reason for action.

Sorry, my bad on this part, I misunderstood what you were saying. Still, I do not advocate the smashing of a society under any conceivable circumstances.

Ah.... real objective there. I hadn't mentioned jayyy or said anything about race, but he came out of nowhere to label me a racist and compare me to Hitler. I'd say that's far more personal than anything I'd said (especially since I hadn't said anything to him). Yet you feel compelled to equate by saying "maybe both you Torsten and Jayyy could take the personal attacks out of your posts, quite unecessary guys." "BOTH"???? No wonder you can't make distinctions about Israelis and Palestinians. Its seems you come from an ideological perspective where everyone must share blame and guilt equally no matter what the facts.

Ah come on! Aren't you overinterpreting a bit here? Defending your life versus bits and bytes on a discussion board? I read the thread backwards and saw insults from both of you. They have no place here. Regardless of who started getting personal. I for one find it rather childish to resort to insults here on SG, no matter if someone else started it first, and was merely asking for the isults to stop. Yet, in response you post this which I could interpret as an insult dressed nicely. Whatever. But don't draw conclusion about my cognitive abilities from this one line, would ya? Apart from this instance, I find your other assessments of my ability to comprehend certain situation rather off base, but that's your view, not mine. There's usually much much more thought behind my posts than the posts themselves, so maybe it's not always easy to follow what I'm saying. But don't just dismiss what I say as naive/stupid/ignorant/whatever because it doesn't match your opinion, and I have a feeling that you're doing exactly that, at least subconsciously.

[jayyy]

The entire line of reasoning disgusts me. Literally. thats how angry I am about it.

Its not really an insult to torsten personally. Its just the realization of how many people in the United States think that way.


I know it must seem like I'm overreacting. But I can't tell myself "calm down, its just the intenet". Its NOT just the internet, the internet just happens to be where I'm reading it from. Its the state of the whole planet.






alright, edited out middle paragrah for insults..none directed toward you torsten, in case you're reading this late and were wondering.

[jayyy]

I don't want to see little fights on here... I apologize for fanning the flames, I guess...I don't think I've ever been so angry about something that didn't relate to me personally, ever.

[brembo]

Ease up some jayyy, folks are entilted to thier own opinions. Step back a second and see that you are angry over how people see the world thru thier eyes. Kinda a silly thing to get worked up over. Torsten has his own views and are just as valid as yours. He sees two cultures in conflict, and has catagorized them as he sees fit....whats wrong with that. Your insistence that he sees the situation as you do is akin to whats goin on over in the 'strip.

[torsten]

Originally posted by jayyy
Bull****. Israel is a hunk of rock that exists only through the military power of the united states. They forced their way onto the land, slaughtered thousands to clear the way, and routinely slaughter palestinian women and children in the gaza strip. I've met israeli soldiers that have done it. there are tons of young israelis in Thailand, and they all served in the army through conscription. Without US aid they would have nothing.

Military aid does not create a high standard of living.
Look at the categories that actually mean something to average people --- education, health care, the economy, etc.
I notice you didn't even try to dispute what I actually said..... that it became a democratic and prosperous country in a short time. What's the source of such avoidance? The fact that that Israel's neighbors can't even approach that level of liberty and success even though some of them are sitting on some of the world's biggest oil supplies? Could it have anything to do with the way they live and govern themselves? Nah....

Originally posted by jayyy
Well, you're actually right about this. Fundamentalism has been taken to the extremes where palestinians are taking their lives to continue fighting, and Israel has still committed far more terrorism and taken far, far more lives. To say "Do they count their suicide bombers in their deathcounts?" shows a disgusting amount of ignorance on your part.

What kind of nerve on your part does it take to invent quotes that I never made? This is getting ridiculous. I notice you haven't backtracked on calling me racist either. You had absolutely no reason for that beyond malice. I don't easily forget that kind of baseless smear. Disagreeing is one thing, but this is seriously not like you. What's going on?

Originally posted by jayyy
You need to get off your god-damn university campus. There are a lot of muslims in the part of the world I'm in, and by and large they're usually friendlier than the non-muslims.

What does this have to do with muslims in Thailand? You're responding to my posts, but do you even read them? It seems you're arguing with someone else.

Originally posted by jayyy
You advocate the extermination of these people, and label overt terrorism and genocide of their ranks as "rational reactions" by a "superior society", and you expect me to believe you're bombarded by PC Propoganda??? Utterly revolting.

When you're ready to stop lying about what I say, we could probably discuss this, but at the present tone there's not much use.

EDIT: I now see your last post the was written while I was composing mine.

[Ghosthunter]

Originally posted by jayyy

A guy like Ghosthunter would be the person he is anywhere in the world. I think too little of him to think he'd be any better coming from anywhere else. But when anyone else thinks the way his nasty, selfish, stupid little head does...that shows how bad things are.

Well i guess i really know how you feel about me...

I never had anything against you but you seem to be taking things way too personal.