It has officially hit the fan...

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:01 am

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040322/D81F6M8G0.html

ScottE · Post by **ScottE** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:04 am

Idiots, on both sides of this thing.

lance-tek · Post by **lance-tek** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:04 am

check yer PM's

lance-tek · Post by **lance-tek** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:06 am

Originally posted by ScottE

Idiots, on both sides of this thing.

oh wait I was talkin about the article .... you weren't referring to your post were ya

-lance

EvilAngel · Post by **EvilAngel** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:26 am

Not looking forwward to the outcome of this......

cho · Post by **cho** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:30 am

Originally posted by EvilAngel
Not looking forwward to the outcome of this......

Yeah...it was already pretty bad

AAF Striker · Post by **AAF Striker** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:42 am

I usually don't get in threads like this (or at all that I can remember) Anyway ....

Oh darn. I couldn't care less about what they do. If they want to get even and what not and fight for the land, then so be it. Why should we stick our nose in and intervene. Other countries can solve their own damn problems however they see fit, it is time to stop babysitting.

cho · Post by **cho** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:48 am

Originally posted by AAF Striker
I usually don't get in threads like this (or at all that I can remember) Anyway ....

Oh darn. I couldn't care less about what they do. If they want to get even and what not and fight for the land, then so be it. Why should we stick our nose in and intervene. Other countries can solve their own damn problems however they see fit, it is time to stop babysitting.

Right now it is pretty much a powder keg just like the mediterian was pre-world war I. All it takes is for certain other groups to back a side taking the civil war to a whole new level causing it to easily spread across Europe / Asia and easily into North America. Then bang we can have a good old World War 3. Wouldn't that be fun...having to fight 3 wars at once.

AAF Striker · Post by **AAF Striker** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:19 am

Originally posted by *cho*
Right now it is pretty much a powder keg just like the mediterian was pre-world war I. All it takes is for certain other groups to back a side taking the civil war to a whole new level causing it to easily spread across Europe / Asia and easily into North America. Then bang we can have a good old World War 3. Wouldn't that be fun...having to fight 3 wars at once.

Alright... don't fight at all. It serves no point anyway. Can't we all just get along. Not that this directly relates to the situation, but I thought I would share:

Anti-Flag - "Anatomy Of Your Enemy"

10 easy steps to create an enemy and start a war:
Listen closely because we will all see this weapon used in our lives.
It can be used on a society of the most ignorant to the most highly educated.
We need to see these tactics as a weapon against humanity and not as truth.

THIS IS HOW TO CREATE AN ENEMY. THIS IS HOW TO START A WAR.
THIS IS HOW TO CREATE AN ENEMY.

First step: create the enemy. Sometimes this will be done for you.

Second step: be sure the enemy you have chosen is nothing like you.
Find obvious differences like race, language, religion, dietary habits
fashion. Emphasize that their soldiers are not doing a job,
they are heartless murderers who enjoy killing!

Third step: Once these differences are established continue to reinforce them
with all disseminated information.

Fourth step: Have the media broadcast only the ruling party's information
this can be done through state run media.
Remember, in times of conflict all for-profit media repeats the ruling party's information.
Therefore all for-profit media is state-run.

Fifth step: show this enemy in actions that seem strange, militant, or different.
Always portray the enemy as non-human, evil, a killing machine.

THIS IS HOW TO CREATE AN ENEMY. THIS IS HOW TO START A WAR.
THIS IS HOW TO CREATE AN ENEMY.

Sixth step: Eliminate opposition to the ruling party.
Create an "Us versus Them" mentality. Leave no room for opinions in between.
One that does not support all actions of the ruling party should be considered a traitor.

Seventh step: Use nationalistic and/or religious symbols and rhetoric to define all actions.
This can be achieved by slogans such as "freedom loving people versus those who hate freedom."
This can also be achieved with the use of flags.

Eighth step: Align all actions with the dominant deity.
It is very effective to use terms like, "It is god's will" or "god bless our nation."

Ninth step: Design propaganda to show that your soldiers
have feelings, hopes, families, and loved ones.
Make it clear that your soldiers are doing a duty; they do not want or like to kill.

Tenth step: Create and atmosphere of fear, and instability
and then offer the ruling party as the only solutions to comfort the public's fears.
Remembering the fear of the unknown is always the strongest fear.

THIS IS HOW TO CREATE AN ENEMY. THIS IS HOW TO START A WAR.
THIS IS HOW TO CREATE AN ENEMY.

We are not countries. We are not nations. We are not religions.
We are not gods. We are not weapons. We are not ammunition. We are not killers.
We will not be tools.

Mother ****ers
I will not die
I will not kill
I will not be your slave
I will not fight your battle
I will not die on your battlefield
I will not fight for your wealth
I am not a fighter
I am a human being!!!

Joint Chiefs of Staff · Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:33 am

Past Israeli governments were reluctant to target Yassin, fearing a firestorm of revenge attacks.

Do you think?

messiah · Post by **messiah** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:26 am

Interesting is the relationship between Ahmed Yassin and the PLO.

If the PLO really had no control or cooperation with Hamas, we should see a significant decline in suicide bombings. Unless Hamas now merges with other groups to "cut of Sharon's head"

My prediction is that Sharon is completely avoiding Ararat and focusing on easier and more accessible "leaders".

I mean Ahmed Yassin has not only been in a wheelchair since puberty but he has been arrested lots of times. He was sentenced to life in prison, returned to gaza to get 3 missles fired on his vehicle? WOW!

His passing is just one less thing for the PLO to worry about

Hamas seen as PLO's chief rival for leadership of Palestinian people

oh well, the entire situation needs global prayer.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:33 am

messiah! Nice to see your still around!

Actually I find myself in agreement with you on the PLO thing. Do you not think that this too, will help to swell the ranks of Al-Qaeda and it's off shoots?

Zilog B · Post by **Zilog B** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:37 am

Both sides are so beyond rationality...........

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:53 am

I dont understand the issue here? He was a terrorist and deserved what he got? Same thing we are hoping to do to bin laden. Here are some facts about him from cnn.com:

JERUSALEM (AP ) -- Key facts about Hamas founder and spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, who was killed in an Israeli helicopter missile strike Monday.

-- Yassin born in what is today the coastal Israeli city of Ashkelon. His Palestinian passport listed his date of birth as January 1, 1929, but Yassin claimed he was born in 1938.

-- 1948: Yassin family uprooted in creation of the state of Israel. Yassin grows up in Gaza refugee camps. At age 12 is paralyzed in sporting accident. He later raises 11 children in three-room apartment in Gaza City slum.

-- 1987: Yassin founds Hamas from ranks of Muslim Brotherhood religious organization. Hamas soon emerges as strongest political rival to mainstream Fatah movement of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Hamas opposes peace talks with Israel and carries out scores of suicide bombings, killing hundreds of Israelis, to thwart peace agreements negotiated by Arafat and his supporters.

-- 1989: Yassin arrested in mass roundup of nearly 200 Hamas members. Sentenced to life in prison for ordering attacks on Israeli soldiers and on Palestinians suspected of collaborating with Israel. The quadriplegic Yassin suffers from various illnesses in jail, including chronic bronchitis and eye and ear infections.

-- 1997: Israel frees Yassin in exchange for two agents from Israel's Mossad spy agency held by Jordan after botched attempt on life of another Hamas leader there.

-- 2000: With breakdown of peace talks and outbreak of new Israeli-Palestinian fighting, Hamas and other militant groups step up campaign of suicide bombings, killing more than 450 people during fighting that has lasted more than three years.

-- 2003: In response to suicide bombings, Israel intensifies targeted killings of militants and declares top Hamas leaders "marked for death."

-- September 6, 2003: Israeli air force drops 550-pound bomb on Gaza building where Hamas leaders had gathered; Yassin escapes with a small wound on his hand.

-- January 30, 2004: Yassin says Hamas making every effort to kidnap Israeli soldiers to use as bargaining chips for release of Palestinians in Israeli jails.

-- March 22, 2004: Helicopter launches three missiles, instantly killing Yassin as he leaves a mosque after morning prayers.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:58 am

GH...the problem is...unlike Laden.....he's a religious leader. This will polarize the extremists in the middle east.

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:06 am

This act by Israel is just as much a terrorist act as a Palesinian suicide bombing.

And the cycle continues.
Talk peace while ya kill each other, great way to secure a future for the next generations

Yeah, both sides are a bit off the wall.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:19 am

Originally posted by downhill
GH...the problem is...unlike Laden.....he's a religious leader. This will polarize the extremists in the middle east.

i dont care if the guy is an aethiest/pagan/pope

he is a terrorists dont matter, and i would not expect anyone to back down to terrorism

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:20 am

Originally posted by Norm
This act by Israel is just as much a terrorist act as a Palesinian suicide bombing.

And the cycle continues.
Talk peace while ya kill each other, great way to secure a future for the next generations

Yeah, both sides are a bit off the wall.

nah difference is isarael could have just bombed everyone one they just went after their leader

not like the palestininas who specifically go after innocent people including women/children

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:22 am

Originally posted by Ghosthunter
nah difference is isarael could have just bombed everyone one they just went after their leader

Who is everyone?

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:22 am

Originally posted by downhill
Who is everyone?

i meant palestinians

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:26 am

Understood.

You don't think that act would not make the world a more dangerous place to live?

My guess is this simply action is going to make extremist out of a lot of the Muslim faith. You do know that there are already thousands of people protesting this, the world over?

IMHO....I agree with Norm...Shooting a missile at a paraplegic isn't going to do much for Israels PR..

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:31 am

Originally posted by downhill
Understood.

You don't think that act would not make the world a more dangerous place to live?

My guess is this simply action is going to make extremist out of a lot of the Muslim faith. You do know that there are already thousands of people protesting this, the world over?

IMHO....I agree with Norm...Shooting a missile at a paraplegic isn't going to do much for Israels PR..

I have come to the conclucison that no matter what happens there will never be peace.

At this point I say Isreal must do what they need to do to defend themselves.

Day in day out I am seeing and hearing stories of suicide bombings left and right killing people. You can go to just local store and boom get blown up, go on a bus and you get blown up...

we all discuss this from linving on the outside of what is going on, but if U.S, or a big city like New York had to deal with the bombings that Israel is going through on a daily basis you bet everyone would be fighting back and doing whatever is necessary.

Rouse · Post by **Rouse** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:08 am

There's not much you can do about it, plus Americas plate is full right now, a side order of israel just won't fit. America can only save so much of he world at once.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:20 am

I wonder if Arafat made a deal with the devil.

Jamie_R · Post by **Jamie_R** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:51 pm

i may get flamed for this, but i'm gonna say it anyway ...

why don't we (the world) just let Israel and Palestine duke it out and be done with it? neither nation seriously wants or can handle peace. they (BOTH sides) can't stop killing each other long enough to even talk about it.

and am I the only one who thinks the US's steadfast support of Israel has helped bring alot of terrorism to our doorstep?

Prey521 · Post by **Prey521** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:12 pm

Originally posted by Norm
This act by Israel is just as much a terrorist act as a Palesinian suicide bombing.

How so? The killing of this loon will most hopefully weaken those Hamas retards in the longrun, though they will retaliate for his assasination. What the Israeli's need to do is bust a cap in Arafats ass, since, unless you're ridiculously naive, know that he supports Hamas, even though the coward will never admit it. Good riddens too all them psychopaths.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:33 pm

Originally posted by Jamie_R
i may get flamed for this, but i'm gonna say it anyway ...

why don't we (the world) just let Israel and Palestine duke it out and be done with it? neither nation seriously wants or can handle peace. they (BOTH sides) can't stop killing each other long enough to even talk about it.

and am I the only one who thinks the US's steadfast support of Israel has helped bring alot of terrorism to our doorstep?

nah they just hate us anyway, just the whole idea of capitilism and freedom

they would find some other excuse to kill us

SGTMAJRET · Post by **SGTMAJRET** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:36 pm

Originally posted by *cho*
Right now it is pretty much a powder keg just like the mediterian was pre-world war I. All it takes is for certain other groups to back a side taking the civil war to a whole new level causing it to easily spread across Europe / Asia and easily into North America. Then bang we can have a good old World War 3. Wouldn't that be fun...having to fight 3 wars at once.

I honestly think WWIII has already started.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:40 pm

Originally posted by SGTMAJRET
I honestly think WWIII has already started.

You may have a point there. I'm guessing that most posting to this thread, haven't been watching the news on this.

Jamie, there is no Palestine...only a group of people wishing that were the case...

Prey...some history lessons are in order I think. Iit's not an issue of "us vs. them".

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:45 pm

Originally posted by downhill
You may have a point there. I'm guessing that most posting to this thread, haven't been watching the news on this.

Jamie, there is no Palestine...only a group of people wishing that were the case...

Prey...some history lessons are in order I think. Iit's not an issue of "us vs. them".

Fill us in on what is going on for those who cannot see the news?

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:14 pm

From the Washington Post....and just a brief..

The killing, writes Zev Schiff, senior correspondent for the liberal Tel Aviv daily Haaretz, was intended to eviscerate Yassin's claim that the Gaza withdrawal vindicated Hamas's military strategy of striking at Israeli civilians. "Hamas will not be able to claim that the withdrawal was prompted by the group's terrorist operations and that if these attacks continue, they will lead to a complete Israeli withdrawal."

Aljazeera.net, the Arab cable news network Web site says, "Today's killing will be seen by many political observers as part of an Israeli plan to crush resistance in Gaza before the Zionist state withdraws completely from the Strip."

While Arab writers recalled Yassin sympathetically, Israelis suggested his demise was deserved.

"To his enemies he was the epitome of evil," writes Faisal Bodi, a senior editor at Aljazeera.net, "but the man I met was the embodiment of one of the most unequal struggles of our times."

"Sitting hunched in a wheelchair in his breezeblock Gaza home, the frail shaikh symbolised the Palestinians' apparently hopeless resistance against the Middle East's military superpower, Israel."

"Yasin's legacy of unflinching resistance will inspire thousands in years to come," Bodi predicted.

Mostafa el-Sawwaf, correspondent for the Qatar-based news site Islam Online, says Yassin looked forward to dying in the service of the Palestinian cause. Describing Yasin's final hours, he says the blind sheikh who went to prayers early Monday morning "had no idea this was the day he long dreamed of and yearned for."

When three Israeli missiles struck his entourage "ambulances raced to the scene while dumbfounded Palestinians gathered the remains of the nine victims, including the dashed out brains of Sheikh Yassin."

As a martyr of the Palestinian cause, says Sawwaf, Yassin "remains close at the hearts of all Muslims, Arabs and freedom fighters around the world."

Danny Yatom, former chief of the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, writes in Maariv that "killing Yasin was a necessary step in the comprehensive war against terror."

Yatom adds that the assassination will not put an end to attacks on Israeli civilians. "In the short-term, it is likely to increase [terrorism]. However, the attack could damage Hamas's medium-range ability to perpetrate attacks and cause serious long-term damage," he writes.

The biggest beneficiary of his death, suggests Danny Rubinstein, an Israeli journalist knowledgeable about Palestinian politics, may be Hamas. The West Bank correspondent for Haaretz, Rubinstein writes today that Yassin's assassination ends "once and for all to the possibility that the [Palestinian Authority] will take measures to restrain Hamas and curb its members."

"The more Israel hits Hamas leaders and rank-and-file members, the more their popularity climbs. In tandem, they become increasing immune to operations by the [Palestinian Authority's] security force, since any such operation would only be interpreted as treacherous collaboration with Israel."

"The assassination of Yassin could, therefore, merely contribute to the collapse of the Palestinian Authority, and, by creating chaos in the Gaza Strip, turn Hamas into the only side to benefit politically from Yassin's death."

------------------------------------------

Headlines around the world echo either Israel has a right to defend itself or condemn them for how the assassination was carried out.

Jamie_R · Post by **Jamie_R** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:40 pm

found this editorial .... pretty interesting view ...

Hamas founder Sheik Ahmed Yassin was the Osama bin Laden of Palestinian terrorism. By assassinating Yassin, the Israelis just applied the Bush Doctrine to one of the most deadly terrorist leaders on the planet. In the winner-take-all war on terror, countries are either with us or against us. They either take decisive action — even preemptive military action — to bring terrorists to justice, or they are guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy.

Israel's side is clear.

You'd think, therefore, that the Bush administration — fresh off of losing Spain as a major ally in the war against radical Islam — would be grateful and publicly praise our only democratic ally in the Middle East as a true partner for peace.

Think again.

The Bush administration's initial reaction to Israel's act of self-defense has been mealy-mouthed, pathetic, and morally offensive.

White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan says all parties in the region should show "maximum restraint." State Department spokesman Lou Fintor likewise says "the United States urges all sides to remain calm and exercise restraint." National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice concedes "Hamas is a terrorist organization and that Sheik Yassin has himself, personally, we believe, been involved in terrorist planning." But she's quick to add that "it is very important that everyone step back now and try now to be calm in the region."

Hardly a full-throated defense for an American ally under siege by a seemingly never-ending wave of 9/11-style suicide bombers. Indeed, the Bush administration suddenly sounds eerily similar to our warm-weather friends in Europe. British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw says Israel's the assassination of Sheik Yassin "unacceptable, it's unjustified, and it's very unlikely to achieve its objective." French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin says Israel's actions will "only fuel the cycle of violence."

Au contraire.

Israel's move was both justified and likely to achieve its objective, if it's followed up by an all-out war on Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the militant elements of Yasser Arafat's murderous regime. Let's be clear about the facts. Under Sheik Yassin's inspiration and direction, Hamas launched 425 attacks against Israel over the past three and a half years. Among these were more than 50 suicide bombings, such as the March 2002 bombing of a Passover celebration at a seaside hotel and the June 2002 suicide bombing of a Jerusalem bus carrying children on their way to school. All told, Hamas has killed some 377 Israelis and wounded 2,076 others, a horrifyingly huge number given Israel's relatively small population. Indeed, in proportion to our own population, that would be similar to al-Qaeda killing 16,956 Americans, and wounding another 93,420.

Can you imagine the Bush administration exercising "maximum restraint" if over 100,000 Americans had been killed or wounded at the hands of a radical Islamic terrorist network? Of course not. It's hard to imagine even John Kerry showing such "restraint" if Americans were being slaughtered in such ghastly numbers.

Why then won't the Bush White House proudly stand side-by-side with Israel as a strategic ally against a radical Islamic jihad? Is not Israel following President Bush's own requests?

On September 20, 2001, the president addressed a Joint Session of Congress and told the world: "Our war on terror begins with al-Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated.... Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes, visible on TV, and covert operations, secret even in success. We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime."

In his State of the Union address on January 29, 2002, President Bush said: "My hope is that all nations will heed our call, and eliminate the terrorist parasites who threaten their countries and our own. Many nations are acting forcefully. But some governments will be timid in the face of terror. And make no mistake about it: If they do not act, America will."

In his June 1, 2002, speech at West Point, President Bush stated unequivocally: "Our security will require transforming the military you will lead — a military that must be ready to strike at a moment's notice in any dark corner of the world. And our security will require all Americans to be forward-looking and resolute, to be ready for preemptive action when necessary to defend our liberty and to defend our lives."

Distancing ourselves from foul-weather friends such as Israel won't help us win the war on terror. Indeed, for the first time, Hamas — convinced the U.S. gave Israel the green light for assassinating Yassin — is now directly threatening the United States with retaliation. "All the Muslims of the world will be honored to join in on the retaliation for this crime," says a new Hamas statement. "The Zionists didn't carry out their operation without getting the consent of the terrorist American administration, and it must take responsibility for this crime." Mohammed Mahdi Akef — head of an Egyptian terrorist faction known as the Muslim Brotherhood — told al-Jazeera television: "There can be no life for the Americans and Zionists in the region. We will not rest until they are expelled from the region."

There is no point in pretending: The United States and Israel are in this war together. We've both been targeted by radical Islam. The only way to win is to stay united.

Link To Article

Zilog B · Post by **Zilog B** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:49 pm

Heck with Israel, they made their bed let them sleep in it. This country already supports them financially & militarily (although indirect). I don't want to have to pay to rebuild more real estate in the middle east for a long time.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:32 pm

Originally posted by Jamie_R
i may get flamed for this, but i'm gonna say it anyway ...

why don't we (the world) just let Israel and Palestine duke it out and be done with it? neither nation seriously wants or can handle peace. they (BOTH sides) can't stop killing each other long enough to even talk about it.

and am I the only one who thinks the US's steadfast support of Israel has helped bring alot of terrorism to our doorstep?

Why don't we? Becasue we are scared that one side will lose.

ScottE · Post by **ScottE** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:57 pm

Originally posted by lance-tek

oh wait I was talkin about the article .... you weren't referring to your post were ya

-lance

I was talking about the Israelis and the Palestinians.

Joint Chiefs of Staff · Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:14 pm

Hamas vows revenge against the United States.

If I'm not mistaken the Israelis targeted Yassin, not the United States.

brembo · Post by **brembo** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:20 pm

Originally posted by Joint Chiefs of Staff
Hamas vows revenge against the United States.

If I'm not mistaken the Israelis targeted Yassin, not the United States.

JCOS-

Logic and rational went out the windows MANY moons ago. Why would Israel/Palestine begin to use it now?

Joint Chiefs of Staff · Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:22 pm

Originally posted by brembo
JCOS-

Logic and rational went out the windows MANY moons ago. Why would Israel/Palestine begin to use it now?

True

My take on it is that I just don't know what to make of it. This world is so screwed up.

Jamie_R · Post by **Jamie_R** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:40 pm

Originally posted by Joint Chiefs of Staff
Hamas vows revenge against the United States.

If I'm not mistaken the Israelis targeted Yassin, not the United States.

Israel=USA to the terrorist groups I think ...

Joint Chiefs of Staff · Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:44 pm

Originally posted by Jamie_R
Israel=USA to the terrorist groups I think ...

Yes that's what I've been watching. Revenge to the US and Israel. Is it because we are close allies with Israel?

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It has officially hit the fan...

It has officially hit the fan...

Big Hit?