Terminal Services SBS2K

m4a2t0t · Post by **m4a2t0t** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:27 pm

i just talked to the boss and he would like me to be able to connect all the PC's(4 total) at once, meaning i need to put the server in application sharing mode, i read that the server should be in app sharing mode before any backoffife products are installed or there will be major problems. the only progam the will be accessing for right now will be the database, would it be ok to put it in app mode and then install the database. will(should) i have to reinstall SBS if i want to use exchange. the server is in remote admin mode right now.

I dont plan on using exchange until i build them a new server, the only thing that I need to do is get TS working. I already had the boss connect from one of the prescott stores so i know TS is working. He will be bringing the database and office prog later 2day.

I just called cox and they will be installing a 1.5Mb/256Kb line in a few days.

also is there anyway to determine how much memory will be needed for each TS user. i only have 768MB right now. There will be a max of 5 users connected at once.

twwabw and cyberskye i require your input if you dont mind

cyberskye · Post by **cyberskye** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:15 pm

Sorry bro - we are drifting from my area of specific knowledge. TS I have touched only as a client.

In general terms, tho, 768M is kinda light for a dbms (this really depends on what is done with the data, tho). Throw TS in there and I might worry.

Can you not stage this yourself? Start the system up, baseline the memory after a few minutes of settling, start launching TS sessions (5 total) taking memory/cpu snapshots at each interval. Without knowing exactly how the database will be used this will be of only so much use.

Hope someone else can be more helpful.

Luck,

Skye

twwabw · Post by **twwabw** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:29 pm

A little more info on the database would be helpful. What specifically is it? And, do you need to run it in TS? Without going back through the whole post- I thought they were going to use RAS to connect via dial-up, and share the database. A link to what DB you're using will help determine where you go from here.

TS should not effect your use of Exchange.

Memory and processor(s) are concerns- this is where duel processors come into their own.

Remember too the licensing costs of putting that server into application mode. A 5- pack of licenses costs $ 750.00 !!

Shinobi · Post by **Shinobi** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:38 pm

Some questions I have to ask you.
This Cox pipe 1.5Mb/256Kb , thats for your Server?
The 256kb upload is kinda small, you are going to have big
problems with your bandwidth when "5" TS Clients try to access it,all at the same time.
What CPU is in the Server? and How much Memory?
I'm afraid with Terminal Server running with Back Office and you are going to have multi profiles running for the TS, your goning to get bogged down real fast. Even if you have Dual Cpu's on your Mobo' your still going to be bottlenecked with your upload speed.
Don't get me wrong, I like what your doing, but do you "have" the hardware and the bandwidth to do the job?

m4a2t0t · Post by **m4a2t0t** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:51 pm

Its a access databse that he made himself. He wants to be able to use remote desktop to connect.

When we bought the software package we got 5 licenses with it.

Were stuck using my 1.4GHz t-bird for now with a max of 1.5GB of RAM. Im going to tell him again that he should wait to run app mode until i build them a real server. I still need to incorporate a backup solution first.

m4a2t0t · Post by **m4a2t0t** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:55 pm

4 of the clients will be connecting to their ISP through dial-up, 1 person may be connecting through broadband or through my phone but thats only 56K

If i need more bandwidth i can go up to 384

twwabw · Post by **twwabw** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 5:19 pm

Originally posted by m0a2t4t
When we bought the software package we got 5 licenses with it.

You didn't get 5 Terminal Services Client Access licenses did you? 5 Licenses for what? Or just to distribute the database app.?

twwabw · Post by **twwabw** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 5:24 pm

Originally posted by m0a2t4t
4 of the clients will be connecting to their ISP through dial-up, 1 person may be connecting through broadband or through my phone but thats only 56K

If i need more bandwidth i can go up to 384

Ouch- TS clients over dial up? Man- I can't imagine it. TS chews bandwidth- it is so graphic intensive. I would consider looking at something like Citrix if the GUI is a prerequisite. They'll claim 4-8 Kbps per client- which is bologna- even is 16 color mode Metaframe will eat up closer to 20.

I have never experienced TS over dial-up- but I just can't imagine it will be bearable.

cyberskye · Post by **cyberskye** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 5:52 pm

I have never experienced TS over dial-up- but I just can't imagine it will be bearable.

Not as bad as you might think - assuming a 'quality' dial up connection (I know, I know). It can ceratinly be done for form/data entry.

I have to use it from the hotels that havent gotten their broadband offerings together yet. Our knowledge base app is very sensitive to time-outs, so you get better over-all performance from a TS (on GB segment with KB app), vs. thick client.

If this is to be something like a cash register and all stores hit the db at the same time, folks could be looking at a lot of hour-glass time.

I'll see if TechGurlie's home yet - she works support at an ASP that uses metaframe.

m4a2t0t · Post by **m4a2t0t** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 6:11 pm

Originally posted by twwabw
You didn't get 5 Terminal Services Client Access licenses did you? 5 Licenses for what? Or just to distribute the database app.?

when we bought the software it came with a license for 5 client PC's, im pretty sure the licenses are for TS clients

at the compant they worked before they made this one, they were accessing the same database over dial-up. He said that the speed wasnt bad and im sure the other company had more than 5 PC's connecting

littletechgirl · Post by **littletechgirl** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 6:26 pm

Work for an ASP that hosts a variety of applications via the web.

We are running 2000 with Terminal Services and Citrix. DBs are MS SQL.

Currently installing another ASP site running Red Hat and Oracle.

We have 12 dedicated Terminal Servers and our DBs are stored on their own MS SQL hosts with clustered DBs.

So trying to envision things on a much smaller scale....

Citrix SUCKS for printing. And maintaining profiles associated with the terminal services and citrix (cause they go hand in hand) can be a pain.

Have to license Citrix separately...more $ for licenses.

TS and Citrix SUCK over dial-up weather you are doing data entry or not. We don't support dial-up. We require our people to have DSL or cable connection AT LEAST! (And some of our clients are small - only having one or 2 people connecting). You can do it over a dial up but it is extremely frustrating! Especially if you are doing DB lookups where large blocks of data are being sent.

Yes to your question about app share mode BEFORE installing your apps.

I am not sure I have a real clear image of what your end users are doing?

And all of this running on a single server/host ....you need to up your memory, absolutely. Need more info about your DB and what your users are doing with it.

m4a2t0t · Post by **m4a2t0t** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 6:32 pm

i havent personally seen the DB but they are just using it when the sell a cell phone or the need to check stock on cell phones. dial-up is the only option at this point, possibly dsl at a few of the stores later on.

it is a access DB written in VB, thats about what i know about the DB.

ill be talking to the owner later today, so if you want to know more about the DB.

twwabw · Post by **twwabw** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 6:35 pm

We have 12 dedicated Terminal Servers and our DBs are stored on their own MS SQL hosts with clustered DBs.

foam begins to form and druel down my chin.......

Citrix SUCKS for printing

I remember the dreaded printer profile configurations with Metaframe... even worse in WinFrame. (oh god.... NT 3.51 !!)

TS and Citrix SUCK over dial-up weather you are doing data entry or not. We don't support dial-up. We require our people to have DSL or cable connection AT LEAST! (And some of our clients are small - only having one or 2 people connecting)

We had remote sites, all connected via frame relay, most 128 & 256K. Still, ended up putting packet shapers in some locations for prioritizing Citrix packets to prevent disconnects and time outs. Big pipe = good.

And all of this running on a single server/host

Not only single server, but SBS- so it is also the DC; GC; file and print server; ISA firewall server; and talk of Exchange!! This, IMO is just too much.

littletechgirl · Post by **littletechgirl** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 6:38 pm

If they are doing VERY simple (not graphical intensive) forms for data entry. You will probably be ok over dial up. Hope they don't type too fast (lol).

Citrix is GREAT for grapgical intense apps. Looks so nice! For a ASP business it is a great thing. Utilities that come with are pretty cool too.

littletechgirl · Post by **littletechgirl** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 6:42 pm

Not only single server, but SBS- so it is also the DC; GC; file and print server; ISA firewall server; and talk of Exchange!! This, IMO is just too much.

ABSOLUTELY!!!. I am no great tech but ... I agree. Exchange on a separate host/server. And depending on the DB and how big it is and how many threads it spawns... And there HAS to be someone doing DB look-ups and queries. Who's managing the business. The monthly reporting for business reasons can have a great affect on users try to connect also.

We had remote sites, all connected via frame relay, most 128 & 256K. Still, ended up putting packet shapers in some locations for prioritizing Citrix packets to prevent disconnects and time outs. Big pipe = good.

No joke that is ALL I hear. It is slow...I got kicked off...

That is the technology that your office decided to invest in... sorry.

Wish I could say that.

m4a2t0t · Post by **m4a2t0t** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 6:53 pm

wish i knew a little more about the database, sorry.

thanks for the input guys and gals

off to reformat a PC

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 7:11 pm

Originally posted by twwabw
Not only single server, but SBS- so it is also the DC; GC; file and print server; ISA firewall server; and talk of Exchange!! This, IMO is just too much.

Heh heh......tenacious at that one aren't ya....teehee...

It is a trimmed down, special version of Exchange on SBS...about 3/4 size...she does run leaner.

I've seen My Console through dial up....it really isn't that bad. Even Citrix is optimized to run on a 24k connection. And the Terminal Services in 2K Server is just an old version of Citrix.

Plus it is only an Access database he's running...not going to kill server resources like separate SQL clients would.

I think he'll be alright...and note in his earlier post....the store already ran this over dial up through SBS before.

twwabw · Post by **twwabw** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 7:42 pm

Originally posted by YeOldeStonecat
Heh heh......tenacious at that one aren't ya....teehee...

I know.. I know... I just can't help it. I too manage SBS installs, and they become too bloated with time, running too much crap, trying to be all things to all people. The hardware requirements of an Exchange install don't change whether it's SBS or not- I've never heard that SBS Exchange is any "leaner" than full blown. You'd have to prove that one to me. You still need fast, multiple scsi disc subsystems, and in 2000, dual processor is a HUGE benefit- much more so than in 4.5.

I know SBS works. But its performance compared to the standalone method is not the same. It can't be . I know it has a place, and is a good fit for many places. But, to add SQL or a database app, possilbly Exchange, and now throw in TS app server too??? No - I don't like it. You have to sacrifice something... anything. If I knew I had to run a dynamic DB app AND Term Svcs, I would at the very least try to eliminate something running on this one box. My first inclination would be ISA server.

This scenario keeps growing and growing. What's next? RRAS? VPN? A certificate server? I know it's an economical alternative to the multi server typical scenario, but where and when do you cry uncle?

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 8:02 pm

The best I can give is from Harry Brelsford's book on "Small Business Server 2000 BEST PRACTICES". Harry is one of the top SBS consultants, has written many books on it, participated with the team in developing SBS. He talks about it in the...oh...first third of the book somewhere.

http://www.nethealthmon.com

I feel the horsepower of todays hardware has easily kept up with the software demands....for 5 -6 grand, you can get a dual CPU box with a couple of gigs of RAM, RAID 5 U160 array, redundant power supplies...the power is there. I figure most places use maybe half the features of SBS...so not every site is bogging her down with 50 clients running everything.

Hey, on another note...have any Blackbaud clients? Blackbaud is upgrading from Sybase to full blown SQL......setup a new workstation for a clients main book-keeper today, and the guy from a Blackbaud accounting house was there doing some Blackbaud upgrades, converting the database....in preparation for the big upgrade this summer.

I built them a nice little ML350 dual PIII RAID 5 server almost 2 years ago...will be stuffing some RAM in that box for SQL soon.

(or upgrading to SBS so they can get SQL....snicker snicker snicker....)

twwabw · Post by **twwabw** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 8:56 pm

Thanks for the link- I'll read it for sure. SBS is suitable for lots of places- I agree... just not all. (especially when they drop those rebates

)

Who's Blackbaud? Don't know about them?

Oops... threadjacking... sorry about that m0a2t4t .

Don't forget to fill us in on some details about this database.

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 9:19 pm

Originally posted by twwabw
Who's Blackbaud? Don't know about them?

Hugely popular accounting/fund raising software package for non-profits.

http://www.blackbaud.com/

cyberskye · Post by **cyberskye** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 9:17 am

I feel the horsepower of todays hardware has easily kept up with the software demands....for 5 -6 grand, you can get a dual CPU box with a couple of gigs of RAM, RAID 5 U160 array, redundant power supplies...the power is there. I figure most places use maybe half the features of SBS...so not every site is bogging her down with 50 clients running everything.

I agree that the low-cost horsepower available is formidable. I also see that MS software keeps requiring more and more just to run. To be honest, working in software myself, the fact that the hardware keeps improving has GREATLY REDUCED SOFTWARE QUALITY AND EFFICIENCY - it allows developers to be sloppy because the hw can make up the difference for their bloated code. Try and run that same code on hw from a couple of years ago and it hurts.

We have our own network OS (and a bunch of add-on solutions). You could run several server processes on one box (especially those sunE15000 w/ 64 or 128 processors : DROOL: ) but once you turn on debug logging, the whole thing will come to its knees trying to write to disk; a blocking function. Long story short - if only storage could keep up with cpu/memory.

m4a2t0t · Post by **m4a2t0t** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 1:04 pm

Oops... threadjacking... sorry about that m0a2t4t .

I dont mind, I like listening to you guys talk shop...Interesting stuff

what are the odds that i would find a problem, goto technet and find a KB article that describes my problem to the T and then not being able to fix it.

to better explain i have 3 errors in event viewer for applications, i find KB article 258296 http://support.microsoft.com/default.as ... -us;258296 and it describes the 3 entries in the log viewer but i have already put the primary network adapter first in the list(before I even ran ICS I did this).

I noticed this before I installed SP1 but i was also reading that windows SP3 would fix the problem so I install ed SBS SP1

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 1:16 pm

You didnt' change the share on the C partition, did you? Dont' ever share the C drive on an NT system....a directory/folder...yes, but never the entire C partition/drive.

m4a2t0t · Post by **m4a2t0t** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 1:34 pm

I only shared the F drive with some docs and my software apps and the CD drive

m4a2t0t · Post by **m4a2t0t** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 3:41 pm

not only can i not view shared folders on either computer, when i try to install his DB it says my system files are out of date and it will update the files, reboot and then rerun the setup...says the same thing after a reboot....LOL

im just wondering if something got messed up with when i went into app sharing mode after i had fully installed SBS.

im going to go read some of that SBS:best practices book

cyberskye · Post by **cyberskye** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 3:52 pm

not only can i not view shared folders on either computer, when i try to install his DB it says my system files are out of date and it will update the files, reboot and then rerun the setup...says the same thing after a reboot....LOL

I've seen installers looking for specific versions of files and will bark even if yours is newer.

Per my LittleTechGurl, you do need to cojnfigure app sharing mode first or you run into problems.

I don't know about that myself. I am a unix guy and she is dead set on microsoft. You should spend an evening at our dinner table...

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 4:23 pm

Originally posted by m0a2t4t
not only can i not view shared folders on either computer, when i try to install his DB it says my system files are out of date and it will update the files, reboot and then rerun the setup...says the same thing after a reboot....LOL

im just wondering if something got messed up with when i went into app sharing mode after i had fully installed SBS.

Oh boy....wish I could help you, but I'm not even minimally experienced in this area.....

"Third time's a charm!"

objohn · Post by **objohn** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 5:36 pm

I use WTS a lot. Access isn't the best application to run on TS as it doesn't scale very well. 5 users shoud be OK though.

Win2K CALS are very different from WTS CALS. If your clients are Win2K/ XP you're OK, however if previous OS's are being used, you will have installed these through Terminal Services Client Licensing if you have them. Otherwise you will be using 90 day temporary licenses that will run out after 90 days and you will not be able to log on. Look at the WTS licensing utility to check this out.

WTS over a modem is OK. I use it regularly asnd it is not that bandwidth hungry especially seeing as RDP5 ( the version of theprotocol that comes with Win2K) enables data compression and caching of bitmaps.

OJ

m4a2t0t · Post by **m4a2t0t** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 5:49 pm

ya all clients are xp boxes so no client licenses needed.

well off to install TS properly, I think i can get it done in a few hours.

objohn · Post by **objohn** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 5:52 pm

Installing it is a pice of cake - will take 20 mins tops.
Configuring the client seesions takes a bit longer!!!!!

There are some 'best practices ' for this if you're interested.

OJ

m4a2t0t · Post by **m4a2t0t** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 1:21 am

ahhhhh..............if it were only more simple. the $hit i went through to get the app mode working..sheesh. everytime it went to the small business portion of the install(while its actually installing SBS,exchange etc.) when it got to SBS portion it would tell me it couldnt find a file, so i reboot find right setup file, rerun the install and install SBS it doesnt have any problems. The funny thing is I selected every option under SBS and after the install finished and i rebooted the ICS wizard wasnt installed.. I know i had it selected.

even funnier is the fact that the first try when it was installing the domain controller ther was a error, so i reboot reinstall the DC and finish the rest of the SBS install..but when im all finished i am unable to get into the active directory..no DC found...LOL

were up and running now with app mode and no errors in the event viewer yet. Now i gotta get TS working again

m4a2t0t · Post by **m4a2t0t** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:49 pm

for some odd reason i cant get into TS working again. If i enter my WAN IP address i cant access it but if i enter the IP on the LAN i can get into it(this is from my LAN PC)

i have my packet filters for TS port 3389, and i have my router set to forward port 3389 also, and i set it up for TS in the ICS

m4a2t0t · Post by **m4a2t0t** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 5:21 pm

OMFG ITS WORKING NOW!!! WOOHOO

i mean everything!! TS, i can now map drives and view all shared folders

cyberskye · Post by **cyberskye** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 5:50 pm

Congrats!

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 7:15 pm

WOOHOO!!!

Time to celebrate!

littletechgirl · Post by **littletechgirl** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:15 pm

Good feelin, hugh? Good job.

m4a2t0t · Post by **m4a2t0t** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:28 pm

OMG it was fantastic until i installed the service pack, now the computers dont see each other again. the client can still connect to the net though.

I think this may be the problem,http://support.microsoft.com/default.as ... us;271213, i had these errors after i installed and i fixed it by going into the advanced properties in networking and putting the internal nic in the front of the list.

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