boat folks...

mountainman · Post by **mountainman** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:18 pm

So my wife is convinced that we need a small boat to take our family of four out on the water for a little cruising and a little tubing. She's hitting up the Craig's List and similar, but neither of us know anything about boats. I'm thinking something in the high teens to low 20's and a single engine.

Can I get some recommendations on some more reliable boats that might fit that profile? I'd prefer something that's not as spendy to maintain, but I know the saying - if it flies, floats or f***s...rent. She just HAS to have a floating money pit.

Anyway... thoughts?

TIA

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:43 pm

Sure....lots of input here!

How large is the family...in other words, how many people do you wish to have onboard at any time?

Looking to tow? Or keep at a dock/mooring?

2x options for power in your price range....Outboard, or Inboard/Outboard (I/O)

I'd say to start looking in the 18" range for your budget, something with a 100-150hp outboard, or 160-225hp I/O for similar performance. Easier on the maintenance budget IMO is the outboard engine.

I love Tahoe boats...check out their Q5 series...many different submodels
http://www.tahoesportboats.com/boat/?boat=3004
Also Stingray boats makes some economical yet sleek/fast boats.

mountainman · Post by **mountainman** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:37 pm

Thanks, Cat! I knew you'd chime in.

It would be my wife and I with two little kids. Perhaps we'd take another couple out instead of the kids, but VERY rarely. It would also need to be something trailered.

Good to hear on the diff between outboard and I/O.

I'll check those out you listed. If you got anymore advice, I'd love to hear it.

twwabw · Post by **twwabw** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:56 pm

I agree completely about I/O vs Sterndrive. If it's for casual, occasional use, an outboard is typical a lot less to maintain. Arguably more expensive to repair sometimes, but not as much for the user to care for. W/kids and a wife- a little cuddy with a potty makes the day easier. Doesn't need to be much, just enough to duck into and, well.... you know.

PsykoPenguin · Post by **PsykoPenguin** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:08 pm

twwabw wrote:a little cuddy with a potty makes the day easier. Doesn't need to be much, just enough to duck into and, well.... you know.

mountainman · Post by **mountainman** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:34 pm

Cuddy?

De Plano · Post by **De Plano** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:44 pm

A cuddy cabin is a small cabin with just a few amenities. No galley, maybe a smallish bed, and no enclosed bathroom

CableDude · Post by **CableDude** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:49 pm

lol sneaker ads.

Gixxer · Post by **Gixxer** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:06 pm

YeOldeStonecat wrote:Sure....lots of input here!

How large is the family...in other words, how many people do you wish to have onboard at any time?

Looking to tow? Or keep at a dock/mooring?

2x options for power in your price range....Outboard, or Inboard/Outboard (I/O)

I'd say to start looking in the 18" range for your budget, something with a 100-150hp outboard, or 160-225hp I/O for similar performance. Easier on the maintenance budget IMO is the outboard engine.

I love Tahoe boats...check out their Q5 series...many different submodels
http://www.tahoesportboats.com/boat/?boat=3004
Also Stingray boats makes some economical yet sleek/fast boats.

dude that might be a tad small.

Gixxer · Post by **Gixxer** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:10 pm

http://www.boattrader.com/

Gixxer · Post by **Gixxer** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:16 pm

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1996- ... E-95322050

Humboldt · Post by **Humboldt** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:18 pm

Gixxer wrote:dude that might be a tad small.

good catch

He must have been thinking about his favorite toy

Gixxer · Post by **Gixxer** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:20 pm

Humboldt wrote:good catch

He must have been thinking about his favorite toy

and even then that would be too small

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:25 am

Gixxer wrote:dude that might be a tad small.

We're talking about
*Budget
*First boat...so no experience yet, which makes outboards even better. Smaller open "bow rider" runabouts are better for the first time boater when it comes to family water sports. Maneuvering close to family member/friends while they're in the water on a tube/kneeboard/wakeboard/water skiis is much easier with an 18' or under boat, non-cuddy cabin. Safer and easier to maneuver.
*Probably trailerable. Speaking of trailering the boat..how long is the trip to destination lake? If it's a hour drive or something...towing a larger boat safely and comfortably may require a heavier duty tow vehicle. Especially when you get over an 18 foot boat, and a boat with a cuddy cabin. What does he currently have for a tow vehicle? What is max tow rating? 2000 lbs? 2500 lbs? A 17 or 18 footer can fit below that, go above 18 feet..more likely to require a new tow vehicle. Budget is now what?
*Performance for tubing
*Just for a lake...they often have size limits, horsepower limits
*He said "small boat"...I pushed it up to an 18 footer because I know he has kids. Small sport boats for tubing are often 15-17 feet.

TonyT · Post by **TonyT** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:02 am

And by all means contact the local Coast Guard who offer a free (or cheap) boating safety course. This is more important than you realize, esp if have small kids.

If trailor the boat, I suggest you go to a few empty parking lots and practice backing up. The KEY is to back up SLOWLY. Then go to a few public ramps on weekdays when empty and practice backing up at the ramp. (avoid looking like a fool on the weekend) Experience boaters often get impatient with novices at the ramp.

Consider getting a smaller deck boat. They give lots of onboard room for kids. Adults will stay seated on a boat but little kids get interested in stuff quickly and as well they get bored quickly, and they will move around the deck a lot. If they feel cramped they get antsy and can spoil an outing fast.

Here's a good universal starting point:
http://www.iboats.com/b/

Deck Boat: (this is an IO, but can get OB too)

joecool169 · Post by **joecool169** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:17 am

What lake?

Humboldt · Post by **Humboldt** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:28 pm

*whoosh* sound of going right of YESC's head

YeOldeStonecat wrote:We're talking about
*Budget...
*First boat....
*Probably trailerable...
*Performance for tubing...
*Just for a lake...
*He said "small boat"...I pushed it up to an 18 footer because I know he has kids. Small sport boats for tubing are often 15-17 feet.

yadda yadda yadda.

You recommended an 18" boat genius...EIGHTEEN INCHES. He even put the 18" in bold when he quoted you.

Hence my favorite toy comment

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:38 pm

Humboldt wrote:
Hence my favorite toy comment

HAH! dripping?

Debbie · Post by **Debbie** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:39 pm

jasonb31 · Post by **jasonb31** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:18 am

A good 19-21 foot deck boat is the way to go and make dam sure it has a newer Evinrude-Johnson or Mercury 2 stroke outboard on it. DFI 2 strokes are the way to go.
Evinrude E-Tec is the best hands down. It will cost you the least to maintain and operate. Always make sure the boat has the maximum horsepower on the back that the Coast Guard sticker says the boat can handle, You will thank yourself later.

4 strokes are very expensive to maintain, If a 4 stroke outboard ever overheats then you will need to go get a loan to fix it. Mercruisers-I/Os should have never been designed for pleasure boats.

Unless the boat is brand new then ALWAYS HAVE THE BOAT CHECKED FROM TOP TO BOTTOM BY A FACTORY AUTHORIZED MARINE TECHNICIAN WHO IS CERTIFIED ON THE ENGINE IN QUESTION. Make the shop prove to you they know what they are doing.

If you have any other questions just send me a message and I will get back to you. I have seen many people get screwed bad in my 15 years as a Marine Master Tech so don't let it happen to you.

TonyT · Post by **TonyT** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:21 am

4 strokes are very expensive to maintain, If a 4 stroke outboard ever overheats then you will need to go get a loan to fix it.

Agreed. The key to preventing this is regular maintenence, i.e. always make sure the impeller is pumping, keep it clean and avoid jumpimg waves where the shaft comes out of the water and pumps air.

However, if one is mechanically inclined, it's not hard to rebuild a motor. I rebuilt my Evenrude 112, got the pistons and parts at cost via a dealer I know. Took a few hours & help from a knowledgable friend.

mountainman · Post by **mountainman** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:31 am

Thanks, all, for the info! We're keeping our eye out for a good, used 18' boat to have little fun with. I'm currently applying for jobs in the Columbus area, so if something comes sooner rather than later, that wouldn't be a bad thing.

Keep it coming if you think of something else!

jasonb31 · Post by **jasonb31** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:00 pm

TonyT wrote:Agreed. The key to preventing this is regular maintenence, i.e. always make sure the impeller is pumping, keep it clean and avoid jumpimg waves where the shaft comes out of the water and pumps air.

However, if one is mechanically inclined, it's not hard to rebuild a motor. I rebuilt my Evenrude 112, got the pistons and parts at cost via a dealer I know. Took a few hours & help from a knowledgable friend.

Did you miss the I am a Evinrude Master Tech part?

All it takes is a clump of weeds or an ice bag and your water pump is gone, If you get the engine to hot then you will blow a head gasket or seize the pistons. You can not always count on hearing the warning horn, I have seen many fail to alert the customer one way or the other when needed.

Water then gets in the engine, Not to bad on a 2 stroke because its simple to clean out. On a four stroke you will damage the valves in most cases and bend a rod as well because your now trying to compress water in a sealed chamber witch don't work well.

Go price some parts for the cylinder heads on the 4 stoke outboards and then go ask who can rebuild one for you by the book, round about how much it cost. My machine shop who has been fixing four-stoke auto heads for 35 years had to make the tools to repair them properly as the factory did not offer them.

A 50hp four stroke will cost over a grand. A two stroke will cost about $110.00 parts and labor.

Anyone can be a shade tree mechanic and I love fixing their screw ups.

Please tell me how you aligned your connecting rod caps and what you used to seal up the crankcase? A proper rebuild of a HP engine takes at least 10hours to do properly, That means doing every cylinder not just the one that blew. Check the book, And thats not rebuilding the carbs or doing the water pump witch had better be done while its being rebuilt. Let alone testing the boats fuel system for air intrusion or a fuel restriction. Two things that will kill an outboard faster than anything.

After all that is done the top end timing is set at 5000rpms in gear, Yes you do it in the water if you want it set properly. Then you tune that sucker so it will per like a kitten by the book in the water.

For any shop to rebuild a four cylinder two stroke outboard properly they will charge you about 20 hrs labor. Parts and labor will be around $3200.00

If you blow a four-stoke then its best to buy a new power-head at about $6000.00 and up.

Jumping a boat will not hurt the water-pump as your not out of the water long enough and the engines are designed to purge air out quickly. MERCURY AND THE JAPS LOVE USING THAT EXCUSE TO DENY WARRANTY CLAIMS!!!!

The Thermostats have small holes in them to purge air and the engines also have a pressure relief valve that will let it out.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:06 pm

mountainman wrote:So my wife is convinced that we need a small boat to take our family of four out on the water for a little cruising and a little tubing. She's hitting up the Craig's List and similar, but neither of us know anything about boats. I'm thinking something in the high teens to low 20's and a single engine.

Can I get some recommendations on some more reliable boats that might fit that profile? I'd prefer something that's not as spendy to maintain, but I know the saying - if it flies, floats or f***s...rent. She just HAS to have a floating money pit.

Anyway... thoughts?

TIA

butt folks makes me think of maddoc

jasonb31 · Post by **jasonb31** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:33 pm

mountainman wrote:Thanks, all, for the info! We're keeping our eye out for a good, used 18' boat to have little fun with. I'm currently applying for jobs in the Columbus area, so if something comes sooner rather than later, that wouldn't be a bad thing.

Keep it coming if you think of something else!

http://www.hurricaneboats.com/

What the hell, You can finance it for 30 years if need be. Get one of these pimped out with a 225-250hp E-TEC. And one of these in it and thats all you need.

http://store.humminbird.com/sonar-gps-c ... 60-1V.html

And one of these!!

http://www.uniden.com/products/productd ... ct=OCEANUS DSC&filter=Fixed Mount

That way you could sell it in any market on any waters if need be. The engine would come with a 5-7 year warranty. Just make sure you store it in the winter time properly and your good to go. E-TECs also have a self winterizing feature that none of the others have witch would be great for your climate.

TonyT · Post by **TonyT** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:16 am

Please tell me how you aligned your connecting rod caps and what you used to seal up the crankcase?

The friend that helped me has been taking apart engines and rebuilding them since he was 10 years old. He's in his 50s now. And he's a mechanical engineer. He can tell you your engine timing just by listening to the motor using a screwdriver on the ear. He's rebuilt many motors. And it's not that hard to align pistons and rod caps by eye.

Anyway, I was not trying to minimize your credentials or skills. I agree, this type of work is NOT for the novice. But one need not be Evenrude certified to do it. Experience and knowledge does not come from certs.

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:15 am

I have been eyeballing those Tahoe and Hurricane deck boats for a while now. Thinking soon as my house sells 'n we're settled with a new house, sell the rocketship Baja and get one of those. Still strong performers, comfy for the semi-protected ocean environment I boat in, roomy for fishing, kids, laying out while anchored on the sand flats, etc.

I like the lines of the Tahoes.

twwabw · Post by **twwabw** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:40 am

TonyT wrote: He can tell you your engine timing just by listening to the motor using a screwdriver on the ear. He's rebuilt many motors. And it's not that hard to align pistons and rod caps by eye.

Anyway, I was not trying to minimize your credentials or skills. I agree, this type of work is NOT for the novice. But one need not be Evenrude certified to do it. Experience and knowledge does not come from certs.

LOL- Tony, you're old school! I can sympathize, cause so am I!! But I think you missed Jason's point- you're talking about rebuilding the OLD ones, he's talking about rebuilding the NEW ones. There's a world of difference there, and it's not about CERTs- it's about OEM knowledge, specialized tools, and procedures. Many of the new engines have moved out of the realm of the shade-tree mechanic. I've been a gear head my whole life too, and yes- I also rebuilt my V6-150 hp Evinrude. But that was a 1990, old-school low tech motor- likely a big brother to your V4 115. One that guys like you and me could still work on. The new engines- you better have the tools. Better have the electronic scanners. Better have the knowledge. Time with a screwdriver and your ear? On the old ones- sure. Not any of the new electronically controlled engines though.

I have a mercruiser 350 Magnum MPI+ EFI in my Formula- no problem, right? Small block Chevy... piece of cake. NOT. Better go buy the Mercruiser/Rinda scan tool. You won't be timing it without it. And if you try, you will toast the engine. The computer handles all ignition timing, and you need the scan tool to interface with the comoputer and put it in "service mode". No ear timing there. You also need it to diagnose and take readings from virtually every sensor on the engine.

The E-Tecs Jason speaks of are arguably the most sophisticated 2-stroke outboards ever built- period. Completely computer controlled, from ignition, to fuel (efi), to oil ratio. The computer controles everything, making this the most awesome 2-stroke you've ever seen- better emmissions than a 4-stroke, better economy than a 4-stroke, and much better performance. Easy starting, and silent- it's really impressive. A few friends of mine have them, and it's almost hard to believe. But rebuild them yourself??? Best of luck.

I think that's the dividing line- If you buy something old and used- sure,.... you can still wrench on 'em yourself. But if you buy something new or newer used, there's a pretty good chance your shade-tree days are over.

TonyT · Post by **TonyT** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:04 pm

LOL, yes, I definitely would never fool with a newer motor. Mine is a '96 and is cake to work on. The new ones are too sophisticated for me to do anything except change plugs and clean.

If I were to get a new motor it would definitely be a 4 stroke. But you could buy a cabin w/ 5 acres in upstate PA for the same price as the new 4 strokes!

twwabw · Post by **twwabw** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:50 pm

TonyT wrote:If I were to get a new motor it would definitely be a 4 stroke.

Not me... when they first came out- yes. They were appealing. Performance wise though, they're slugs. Too heavy, no out of the hole "oomph". 2-strokes always killed 'em and still do with bottom end power to twist that prop out of the hole. You really owe to yourself to see and try one of the new 2 strokes to see how far they've come. I remeber when the 4-strokes came out, we all thought it was the end of the 2-stroke. Now, I think it may end up being the other way around. All of the advantages of the 4-stroke have been neutered by the new technology- there's no valid reason for a 4 stroke anymore. Everything that was ever negative about a 2 cycle is changed.

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:55 pm

twwabw wrote:Too heavy, no out of the hole "oomph". 2-strokes always killed 'em and still do with bottom end power to twist that prop out of the hole.

Have driven a few...agree, once you're done with the awe over the quietness, once she's warmed up and you're away from shore and your throw it forward...immediate disappointment in "where's the kick in the pants and getting up on plane?"

jasonb31 · Post by **jasonb31** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:44 pm

TonyT wrote:The friend that helped me has been taking apart engines and rebuilding them since he was 10 years old. He's in his 50s now. And he's a mechanical engineer. He can tell you your engine timing just by listening to the motor using a screwdriver on the ear. He's rebuilt many motors. And it's not that hard to align pistons and rod caps by eye.

Anyway, I was not trying to minimize your credentials or skills. I agree, this type of work is NOT for the novice. But one need not be Evenrude certified to do it. Experience and knowledge does not come from certs.

Wrong again. Evinrude connecting rods are forged as one piece and then the caps are snapped off at temps well below freezing. In other words you have to squeeze them together from the sides with the $400.00 alignment tool before you can even think of torquing them down or you will damage the rod and cause a bearing to fail prematurely. Now if you just happen to be in a deep freeze then maybe you could get them to line up correctly if you know what your doing.

Your buddy obviously don't. Anyone can rebuild engines for 40 years the wrong way. His may last a few months if they are not pushed hard. Done correctly you can beat the hell out of them day in and day out for ten plus years.

The are checked by feel not sight!!!

"He can tell you your engine timing just by listening to the motor using a screwdriver on the ear" LOL MY ***

I want to see him try that. All two stroke outboards have the timing adjusted and set at 5000 rpms in the water, That means if your boat does 65mph your hanging on and checking it while someone else drives. If you go to 5000rpms out of the water in neutral you risk having a connecting rod implanted in your head after centrifugal force takes over and the last thing you hear is your engine spinning 10,000 rpms on a water hose. BOOM is the next thing you will hear.

What seems easier, Holding your head to screw driver and then to an engine screaming 5000rpms while the boat is doing 60mph or just aiming a timing light at it? A timing light will be easier and perfect. You buddy will be way off with a dam screw driver.

"But one need not be Evenrude certified to do it."

No but you sure had better know enough to one do the job properly and two try getting someone to pay $3000.00 for a rebuild after you explain your not certified to do the job. Certifications are there for a reason. To protect the customers from guys like your buddy.

"And he's a mechanical engineer"

Honestly I have ran across one that had common sense, Most of them could not even think about telling you how an engine worked. He has a certification on how to machine things and thats it. Those guys are the hardest to deal with because they think they know everything when they don't know JACK.

"Experience and knowledge does not come from certs"

Evinrude taught me stuff at the certification schools that I did not know after 10 years in the game having only worked for Evinrude dealers. Your buddy would not even have a clue how to repair an Evinrude E-TEC till he had major schooling.

Gixxer · Post by **Gixxer** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:14 am

YeOldeStonecat wrote:We're talking about
*Budget
*First boat...so no experience yet, which makes outboards even better. Smaller open "bow rider" runabouts are better for the first time boater when it comes to family water sports. Maneuvering close to family member/friends while they're in the water on a tube/kneeboard/wakeboard/water skiis is much easier with an 18' or under boat, non-cuddy cabin. Safer and easier to maneuver.
*Probably trailerable. Speaking of trailering the boat..how long is the trip to destination lake? If it's a hour drive or something...towing a larger boat safely and comfortably may require a heavier duty tow vehicle. Especially when you get over an 18 foot boat, and a boat with a cuddy cabin. What does he currently have for a tow vehicle? What is max tow rating? 2000 lbs? 2500 lbs? A 17 or 18 footer can fit below that, go above 18 feet..more likely to require a new tow vehicle. Budget is now what?
*Performance for tubing
*Just for a lake...they often have size limits, horsepower limits
*He said "small boat"...I pushed it up to an 18 footer because I know he has kids. Small sport boats for tubing are often 15-17 feet.

you put 18 INCHES