Loose change... 2nd edition

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stevebakh
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Loose change... 2nd edition

Post by stevebakh »

Yeah, a conspiracy video about 9/11. :p

I've never watched one before - just heard about all the different conspiracies. I've skipped ahead a little (watching the info about the pentagon and the twin towers), and to be honest, some of the points they raise really do make sense and are good questions. Why don't the government release the videos? Why do people change their minds about certain things? Why are there so many questionable actions and things taking place?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... nd+Edition

Anyone seen this one?
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Post by Meggie »

i think it was pieman who posted that link in one of burkes threads. I like this one best.
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Post by stevebakh »

So - doesn't anyone over in the US question this stuff? Why isn't it on the news, television shows, etc?
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Post by Meggie »

stevebakh wrote:So - doesn't anyone over in the US question this stuff? Why isn't it on the news, television shows, etc?
ive been reading a lot of places are saying that something like 50% of the population of ny think that the government knew about 9-11 before it happened. The news and stuff dont run it because i dont think any of them want to be labled as conspiracy therorists, or left winged.. I try not to watch the news much anymore, after i saw how soldiers dying in iraq wasnt deemed newsworthy, but they would spend a good portion of the show on something like dogs that can sniff out mold problems in your house, or behind the scenes of american idol.
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Post by Izzo »

stevebakh wrote:So - doesn't anyone over in the US question this stuff? Why isn't it on the news, television shows, etc?

oh goodness....heaven forbid someone might get offended. :rolleyes:


With cookie cutter morning shows and basically a controlled media it's impossible for it to be lent enough credibility to go mainstream. Most sheeple here are too wrapped up in what the celebrities are wearing or watching them dance or skate.....it's quite pathetic.
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Post by Prey521 »

stevebakh wrote:So - doesn't anyone over in the US question this stuff? Why isn't it on the news, television shows, etc?
Cuz it is Image
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Post by stevebakh »

Why is it bullsh:t?

Do you have the answers to the questions that this video raises? Have you even watched it? The questions seem valid. I don't think they're far-out, or even proposturous. They're valid questions and unless the video is a complete lie, then the questions are good ones that at the very least, deserve some answers and not being labelled as bull, or conspiracy crackpot theories. You can label it that stuff when you can give reasonable answers to the questions. What about Osama claiming he didn't carry out the attacks that the US is blaming him for, then we magically find a video confession, where he doesn't look the same, even wears a gold ring (against islamic law) and writes with the wrong hand. So - claim you didn't do something, then make a video saying you did?
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Post by Prey521 »

Yes, I've seen all the videos, and no, I myself do not have the answers, since I have never studied physics or anything else that pertains to how the towers fell. But I have read plenty of articles and seen plenty of videos from experts whom refute these theories. You believe what you want, I'll believe what I want, no sense in arguing here, I think it's BS, and some people think there is something more to 9/11 than what's presented to us. It's probably not in the news because there is no hard evidence pointing to anything else other than a terrorist act from a foreign nation. Now if there were cold hard facts, these people would make the press, and me, a believer of the conspiracy, till then, a conspiracy theory is all this is ever gonna be. I gotta admit, that if there were some actual evidence that the goverment was behind this, it would mess my head up really bad LOL
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Post by Meggie »

stevebakh wrote:Why is it bullsh:t?

Do you have the answers to the questions that this video raises? Have you even watched it? The questions seem valid. I don't think they're far-out, or even proposturous. They're valid questions and unless the video is a complete lie, then the questions are good ones that at the very least, deserve some answers and not being labelled as bull, or conspiracy crackpot theories. You can label it that stuff when you can give reasonable answers to the questions. What about Osama claiming he didn't carry out the attacks that the US is blaming him for, then we magically find a video confession, where he doesn't look the same, even wears a gold ring (against islamic law) and writes with the wrong hand. So - claim you didn't do something, then make a video saying you did?
so in short, to answer your question.. people like him is the reason why.
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Post by Prey521 »

Meggie wrote:so in short, to answer your question.. people like him is the reason why.
Sorry, that's a negative, as I have watched and read all about these theories and have looked at both sides. I choose the side that makes the most sense.

SG should have it's own conspiracy theory forum! KM and Burke should be the mods! :rotfl:
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Post by stevebakh »

What videos? Most of the videos are not being released. Why doesn't the government release the videos that should show the plane crashing into the pentagon? Why aren't the employees from the hotel and the petrol station not allowed to speak about what they saw? Seriously, if there really was a plane crash, how would the employees, speaking about it, be a threat to national security? Why isn't there any debris? Where are the engines? What about flight 93? Where are the bodies? How did the passengers make phone-calls from such a high altitude, when it's not possible without technology being implemented (like AA actually did in 2004 - according to the video).

This video seems half decent in the way that it doesn't just ask questions. It also provides the information to refute the official explanations.

Just out of curiosity - if you've seen all the videos (including this one), could you at least tell me the answers that you've settled for, from the points raised in this video? Just the ones you believe to be true.
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Post by Prey521 »

I'm not gonna go into it entirely, as this has been discussed PLENTY....

I think that Flight 93 was taken out by US Military

I have no idea why they do not release the video

There was debri was from flight 77 on the lawn of the Pentagon

I don't know all the answers, and probably never will, but I don't believe that our goverment was behind it.

Good enough for you :rolleyes:
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Post by Izzo »

Prey521 wrote:I'm not gonna go into it entirely, as this has been discussed PLENTY....

I think that Flight 93 was taken out by US Military

I have no idea why they do not release the video

There was debri was from flight 77 on the lawn of the Pentagon

I don't know all the answers, and probably never will, but I don't believe that our goverment was behind it.

Good enough for you :rolleyes:

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Post by knightmare »

stevebakh wrote:So - doesn't anyone over in the US question this stuff? Why isn't it on the news, television shows, etc?
I have been doing it for 3-4 years. Trying to awaken people from the sleep.
The basic feedback is/was--I'm a wack job.

Thoughts outside the box rarely go mainstream.
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Post by knightmare »

Prey521 wrote:Sorry, that's a negative, as I have watched and read all about these theories and have looked at both sides. I choose the side that makes the most sense.

SG should have it's own conspiracy theory forum! KM and Burke should be the mods! :rotfl:
I don't believe in conspiracy theories, Prey. What I or anyone here discusses, only scratches the surface of what really goes on.
Burke sees the truth, and what is coming. And he is angry about it. Frustrated that others do not see it.

My own experiences and ideas are too deep for SG. That has been proven.
Yet 3-4 years later, here we are, and the questions are arising.
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Post by YARDofSTUF »

Prey521 wrote:Yes, LOL

Cliff Notes
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Post by knightmare »

Prey521 wrote:Cuz it is Image

Prey have you ever pondered why you cannot see what others do?

It isn't because you can't. It is because you will not allow yourself to.

It would take away from the zenith of a ride in life, you are going thru right now.
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Post by Prey521 »

What I see is something else that people want to blame on the goverment. Like I said, if there were cold hard facts, I'd probably be a believer as well, but I haven't seen anything to make me think otherwise.
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Post by stevebakh »

That's the thing though - this concept isn't even "outside the box". Everything from the official stories is questionable, even to people who never really pay any attention to conspiracy theories. The facts given on how hot kerosine burns, the melting points of these metals - the lack of debris, apart from a clean although twisted small piece which fell from a plane, which apparently burned so hot, that the whole plane and it's passengers dissintegrated....

Oh and prey - there are no cold hard facts that it was Al Queda or Osama. But you'll believe that? I did - but then I never knew he claimed NOT to have carried out the attacks, until I watched the video. See, I thought - it's all well and good people blaming the government, but it doesn't add up - someone else admitting they did such a catastrophic thing. How could that be in their interests? They'd be hunted for life! But the video answers that, he claimed that he didn't carry out the attacks. Then afterwards - found a confession tape. Right.
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Post by knightmare »

Prey521 wrote:
SG should have it's own conspiracy theory forum! KM and Burke should be the mods! :rotfl:

You and Ghosthunter would be the first banned..!!! Where is your sidekick anyway?
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Post by Prey521 »

knightmare wrote:You and Ghosthunter would be the first banned..!!! Where is your sidekick anyway?
He's on hiatus :rotfl:

And BTW, I wouldn't even click on the link to the forum! :D
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Post by knightmare »

Prey521 wrote:He's on hiatus :rotfl:

And BTW, I wouldn't even click on the link to the forum! :D

Lie, you probably just Pm'd Phillip suggesting the very forum..lol
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Post by jz82 »

The hardest thing for most people to accept is that the government would lie to and attack its own people. Bzzzzzttt, wrong!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

All it would've taken was a couple more people to go along with it and you have implementation. On 9/11, the scale was simply escalated. There's a precident for this...Nero burning Rome, Hitler burning the Reichstag, etc.

But these warmongers in the JCoS didn't stop there...
Operation Northwoods called for a war in which many patriotic Americans and innocent Cubans would die senseless deaths, all to satisfy the egos of twisted generals back in Washington, safe in their taxpayer financed homes and limousines.

One idea seriously considered involved the launch of John Glenn, the first American to orbit the earth. On February 20,1962, Glenn was to lift off from Cape Canaveral, Florida, on his historic journey. The flight was to carry the banner of America's virtues of truth, freedom, and democracy into orbit high over the planet. But Lemnitzer and his Chiefs had a different idea. They proposed to Lansdale that, should the rocket explode and kill Glenn, "the objective is to provide irrevocable proof that . . . the fault lies with the Communists et al Cuba [sic.]"

This would be accomplished, Lemnitzer continued, "by manufacturing various pieces of evidence which would prove electronic interference on the part of the Cubans." Thus, as NASA prepared to send the first American into space, the Joint Chiefs of Staff were preparing to use John Glenn's possible death as a pretext to launch a war.

Glenn lifted into history without mishap, leaving Lemnitzer and the Chiefs to begin devising new plots which they suggested be carried out "within the time frame of the next few months."
Among the actions recommended was "a series of well coordinated incidents to take place in and around" the U.S. Navy base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. This included dressing "friendly" Cubans in Cuban military uniforms and then have them "start riots near the main gate of the base. Others would pretend to be saboteurs inside the base. Ammunition would be blown up, fires started, aircraft sabotaged, mortars fired at the base with damage to installations."

The suggested operations grew progressively more outrageous. Another called for an action similar to the infamous incident in February 1898 when an explosion aboard the battleship Maine in Havana harbor killed 266 U.S. sailors. Although the exact cause of the explosion remained undetermined, it sparked the Spanish-American War with Cuba. Incited by the deadly blast, more than one million men volunteered for duty. Lemnitzer and his generals came up with a similar plan. "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," they proposed; "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation."

There seemed no limit to their fanaticism: "We could develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington," they wrote. "The terror campaign could be pointed at Cuban refugees seeking haven in the United States.


You think a few thousand people and billions in damage would deter people intent on gaining power (Patriot Act...what a sickening name) and expanding the military industrial complex via global actions?
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Post by SteelersFANinMA »

I watched the older videos last fall and the newer ones earlier this year. I guess you can call me a Conspiracy Theorist until some of the questions that these videos ask are answered by the proper authorities. I can't imagine how anyone in their right mind could objectively watch these videos and not be scratching their heads, wondering what the heck actually went on. I'm not one to think that there are conspiracies behind everything that goes on, but I'm also not naive enough to think that conspiracies don't exist. In this case, there are too many unanswered questions. Here is a good site with plenty of conspiracy articles. Be prepared to read!

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/
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Post by Jamie_R »

just got ahold of this video today ... very interesting what I've seen so far ...
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Post by Far-N-Wide »

Personally, I think our government is doing quite well considering all the minorities it has to cater to. Certainly our politicians could use some policing up. Politicians who leak to the press for political gain or party advantages. Are the ones, I’m sure our forefather never intended to sit in those government positions.

Also with freedoms as we bask in, comes a press that largely does not have to answer for leaking this information. Nor does own up for endangering folks for sensational headlines that profits from. We are blessed with conspiracies for the masses to entertainment.

Someone going pay to read those conspiracies, and our media will provide whatever is going to sell. The press is big business after all. I’ll just sum up with the following.

If you all don't like living here... Pack up and move.

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Post by David »

knightmare wrote:I don't believe in conspiracy theories, Prey. What I or anyone here discusses, only scratches the surface of what really goes on.
Burke sees the truth, and what is coming. And he is angry about it. Frustrated that others do not see it.

My own experiences and ideas are too deep for SG. That has been proven.
Yet 3-4 years later, here we are, and the questions are arising.
Whoa there Dave.....

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Post by westy »

My wife and I watched both of the Loose Change movies and the big question that came to our minds was if there never was a plane that hit the pentagon (the movie suggested it was a missile), where are all the people that were on the flight they (the government) said hit it? No way could anyone keep that many people quiet.

I don't recall what the film suggested about flight 93 (was it shot down?) but many people have listened to the black box recorders and it sounds like there was a pretty good fight going on between some hijackers and the passengers.

As for the twin towers, I don't have a good answer for all the questions the movie raised, but I sincerely don't think the government would go to that much trouble to scare us into whatever they suggested. It just doesn't make sense. Too much work for so little return. If you wanted to scare the balls out of people drop a nuke on Alaska (no offense) and claim China or North Korea did it. At least give the government a reason to start a fight with someone.

I think you can raise the same kind of questions about a lot of things if you try hard enough but common sense should prevail unless you want to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon to make some noise.

Just my two cents worth.

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Post by jz82 »

The no-plane theories are distractions from the truth, there's ample evidence to suggest that a plane did hit the Pentagon. For every valid point LC2E makes, it offers up another piece of misinformation.

In this sense, I think the movie has a questionable effect.
Too much work for so little return. If you wanted to scare the balls out of people drop a nuke on Alaska (no offense) and claim China or North Korea did it. At least give the government a reason to start a fight with someone.
9/11 had a greater effect. War with another country would not logically result in something like the Patriot Act and it would not create an open ended theater of war. This isn't to say everything after 9/11 went according to plan, but that's speculation.
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Post by zooner »

good points...

ever try and make a cell phone call during flight?

simply doesn't work.
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Post by David »

jz82 wrote:

You think a few thousand people and billions in damage would deter people intent on gaining power (Patriot Act...what a sickening name) and expanding the military industrial complex via global actions?
I would not question that any government was capable of a gambit to drawn their populace into a war. What I cannot get around is selecting NYC's financial district. This is about as close to the nerve center of the US financial market as one can get. The damage was beyond the property or the lives, but it was devastating to the economy.

As you are aware, we are not in concordance with the actual circumstance of the fall of the towers, however I am inclined to believe that higher ups knew it was going to occur...... and let it happen.... and reaped rewards.

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Post by Ghosthunter »

Hell_Yes wrote:I would not question that any government was capable of a gambit to drawn their populace into a war. What I cannot get around is selecting NYC's financial district. This is about as close to the nerve center of the US financial market as one can get. The damage was beyond the property or the lives, but it was devastating to the economy.

As you are aware, we are not in concordance with the actual circumstance of the fall of the towers, however I do agree that higher up knew it was going to occur...... and let it happen.... and reaped rewards.

Good point...people tend to forget for at least 2 years after 9-11 we were having severe financial problems in almost every field.

I was affected by it and so were so many companies I was working with at the time
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Post by jz82 »

Hell_Yes wrote:I would not question that any government was capable of a gambit to drawn their populace into a war. What I cannot get around is selecting NYC's financial district. This is about as close to the nerve center of the US financial market as one can get. The damage was beyond the property or the lives, but it was devastating to the economy.

As you are aware, we are not in concordance with the actual circumstance of the fall of the towers, however I am inclined to believe that higher ups knew it was going to occur...... and let it happen.... and reaped rewards.
If you subscribe to LIH, there's no moral jump required to MIH. I've consider a lot of possibilities, including overlapping LIH (planes) and MIH (WTC demolition) scenarios, but at some point, I think someone would require effective control to give the go ahead.

And while certain areas were hurt (airline industry is an obvious one), others benefitted in a huge way.
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Post by Jamie_R »

I know for a fact a plane hit the Pentagon ... I have a friend that was working in Washington @ the time and was on the freeway it passed over ...

but still, that leaves alot of unanswered questions ... I especially thought the cell phone thing was interesting ...
.

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Post by Ghosthunter »

This guy totally owns the loose change people and shows they dont have a clue

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/

If you thought Loose Change was smarmy and exploitative, you should check out the Extra Footage Video. I already highlighted the part with Paul Isaac, Jr., our hero.

But afterward (11:21) check out the section where our lying buddy (who sure looks a lot like Jason Bermas to me) goes into his spiel:

"Maybe if we're Vietnam veterans, we shouldn't tell them what happened at the Gulf of Tonkin. Maybe we should go along with the official version."

Later, some older moron chimes in with (11:42):

"The same people who killed Kennedy did this."

Then at 11:53 we get an obvious jump to focus on two black men listening to somebody (I assume Bermas) rambling on with the usual nonsense about Prescott Bush and the Nazis. He mentions Averill Harriman (but forgets to mention that he was a Democrat who went on to become Governor of New York); it's the usual cark. I looked into it long ago and as best I can remember some steel magnate who resisted Hitler and was under house arrest in WWII had transfered funds out of the country and somehow laundered it by buying a bank in Belgium which then bought a bank in New York which somehow Prescott Bush was involved in. This of course becomes Prescott Bush, banker for the Nazis in the paranoid crowd. Hilariously, while comparing the current president to Hitler, Jason's unable to remember (12:10) which countries Hitler took over--"What's the other one--Poland and..." (snaps his fingers). So now Poland is Afghanistan and the other one--you know, is the other other one. Um, Iraq!

He goes on with the shockbomb about Marvin Bush being "the head of security" at the WTC. Actually, Marvin Bush (the unknown Bush brother) was a director of a company that provided security at the World Trade Center. If you know anything about big businesses, you know that directors have almost nothing to do with day-to-day operations of a company. They are the people who sit in boardrooms and discuss agendas and generally function as the shareholders' watch over management (not always successfully of course). The notion that Marvin Bush, who had left Securatec at the end of fiscal 2000 (at least 9 months and probably more before 9-11) had anything to do with the actual security provided by that company at the WTC is just naive. At 13:24 he raves on about how Marvin Bush's last day was supposedly 9-10, which is laughable.

I believe this comes from an overly dramatic passage in a Barbara Bush memoir that describes the company that Marvin was a director of as providing security up till 9-11, by which she of course meant that the contract was cancelled due to the lack of a need. I'm sure if Jason looks into it he can find that a janitorial contract, a water contract, a landscaping contract, a garbage hauling contract and lots of other contracts were cancelled that day as well.

But yet after all this usual nutbar left stuff, Bermas (I assume) still claims (14:07):


This is not a right or left issue. Okay? I'm not conservative or liberal.


No, you're just a complete wacko leftist, and it absolutely is a leftist issue.


And from his site notice how buildings come down when demolished?
Image

Image

Image

Notice anything different between these pictures and the pictures of the collapse of the two towers?

Image

Yep, the WTC came down from the top, while the Schuykill Towers, which was demolitioned, came down from the bottom.
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Post by Izzo »

Ghosthunter wrote:This guy totally owns the loose change people and shows they dont have a clue

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/






And from his site notice how buildings come down when demolished?

That 'owns' nothing.
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Post by Prey521 »

Hey GH, never seen that link before, gonna check it out. But those Loose Change and 911 Truth guys have been smacked down a plenty, but I'll check it out anyways, see if there's anything new :D
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Post by Ghosthunter »

Izzo wrote:That 'owns' nothing.

so you read his 100 page word document?

i doubt it it about 5 or 6 blogs down

http://tinyurl.com/epp82



and I love how he describes conspiracy theorists he right on the money
Since I made the mistake of starting a debate with conspiracy theorists, I figured now would be a good time to repost my rules of conspiracy theories. You see, conspiracy theorists live in a different reality then the rest of us, in a world unrestricted by science and logic. Maybe someday we will get the opportunity to study them in laboratories, but now we must attempt to observe them in their natural environment, the Internet.

Conspiracy theorists differ from normal thought and logic, but they tend to follow these general rules.

1. It is only necessary to observe the evidence that you wish to.For example, the moonbats who believe that a cruise missile hit the Pentagon. As "proof" of this they cite a man who said he saw a plane hit the pentagon "like a cruise missile", ignoring the concept of a simile, and the fact that he, along with thousands of other people saw a "plane" hit the pentagon.

2. A lack of evidence is only proof of the depth of the cover-up.

Pretty self explanatory, I would have the evidence if only they hadn't covered it up so well!

3. Anyone who doesn't agree with a conspiracy theory is either part of the cover-up (see rule 2) or just a close minded drone of the government.

4. The law of inverse proportionality of authority.The validity of any source is inversely proportional to its authoritativeness .

Any government commission, serious academic (not those who teach humanities at Berkeley), law enforcement official, or politician, ie. the people who are in the position to actually know, are immediately suspect because they were probably involved in the conspiracy in the first place. Someone completely removed from the situation, like some guy posting on his website while watching reruns of Star Trek in his parents' basement is more likely to be untainted.

5. Occams Corollary: The complexity and difficulty of a conspiracy theory is only proof of the depth and deviousness of the conspiracy.

6. The Law of Infinite Permutations: Even in the case that an infinite amount of statements are proven wrong an equally infinite amount of new statements can be made.

For example: in a discussion I had the moonbat asserted that no black boxes were found from the 9/11 crashes. When I pointed out that the black boxes from the Pentagon and Pennsylvania crashes had in fact been found, he changed his argument to "OK, well 2 of them have been found, but the data has not been released". I then pointed out that in fact they played the cockpit voice recorders to members of the families who requested. His argument then changed to, "well they were probably faked". And this of course can go on ad infinitum.

In mathematical terms:

Conspiracy Theorist (CT) states 2 + 2 = 5
Level Headed Skeptic (LHS) proves this is false 2 + 2 = 4
CT counters, no 2 + 3 = 6
LHS proves otherwise, 2 + 3 = 5
CT counters, no 2 + 4 = 7...
And this of course goes on forever. Thus CT can never actually be proven wrong.
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Izzo
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Post by Izzo »

Ghosthunter wrote:so you read his 100 page word document?

i doubt it it about 5 or 6 blogs down

http://tinyurl.com/epp82



and I love how he describes conspiracy theorists he right on the money

I have and I'll repeat........it 'owns' nothing...it simply a contrary view to Loose Change..... he's seems to have anger issues as well.
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Ghosthunter
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Post by Ghosthunter »

Izzo wrote:I have and I'll repeat........it 'owns' nothing...it simply a contrary view to Loose Change..... he's seems to have anger issues as well.

Yeah becuase Loose Change is all about spreading lies and propaganda..

BTW Paul Isaac was great in that extra footage...LOL
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