The news is all bad....

Ahren · Post by **Ahren** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:14 pm

NYC transit imposes random bag search

There is a police state a comin'.

Not just the States, not just the UK but all the free nations of the world. Nobody knows how to stop it. I'm waiting for them to figure out that rush hour at Young subway has the potential for mayhem.

Meh. Lunch + Stella(s) = this post.

ub3r_n00b · Post by **ub3r_n00b** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:22 pm

This has been foreseen many years ago.

I still don't understand how we are letting it happen.

No offence, but to me it seems like there is not much freedom in the land of the free anymore - when you are constantly subjugated to Terror alerts, bag checks and many other methods of control.

Spammy · Post by **Spammy** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:10 pm

I think it is a great idea,

Ahren · Post by **Ahren** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:12 pm

Thanks Brent!

J/k

DaddyLongLeg · Post by **DaddyLongLeg** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:15 pm

Personally, I don't mind waiting an extra 30 minutes or hour to make sure nothing bad happens. What else can I say, rather wait than die

ghost · Post by **ghost** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:15 pm

The random searches are no good without profiling. That's the only way to make it effective. If you're not going to do that, then forget he random searches, it's like randomly shooting up in the air trying to hit a bird.

Spammy · Post by **Spammy** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:16 pm

Jarngrimr wrote:Thanks Brent!

J/k

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:17 pm

Spammy wrote:I think it is a great idea,

In a way it is..in a way it isn't. There really is no middle ground. People here are upset its taking 2hrs to get from one point to another where it usually takes 1/2hr. The days following 9-11 it was a comfort seeing all the military, the cops, the guns and the checkpoints, after several months it got to be tiring to see and a little intrusive.

Pie

Spammy · Post by **Spammy** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:20 pm

thepieman wrote:In a way it is..in a way it isn't. There really is no middle ground. People here are upset its taking 2hrs to get from one point to another where it usually takes 1/2hr. The days following 9-11 it was a comfort seeing all the military, the cops, the guns and the checkpoints, after several months it got to be tiring to see and a little intrusive.

Pie

I'll say this much I wouldnt care if it took me three days to get to work. If there is a better chance of me making it alive I'm down for that.
I would much rather deal with the searching of bags then not ever seeing my family again.

Granted these random searches are useless just like ghost said, as long as there are profiling coming along with them.

I'm all for saftey if it helps you and me and our families making it to work and home at the end of the night screw it . Lets search bags.

ghost · Post by **ghost** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:22 pm

thepieman wrote:In a way it is..in a way it isn't. There really is no middle ground. People here are upset its taking 2hrs to get from one point to another where it usually takes 1/2hr. The days following 9-11 it was a comfort seeing all the military, the cops, the guns and the checkpoints, after several months it got to be tiring to see and a little intrusive.

Pie

Since you live there, Pie, I'm most interested in your opinon on the matter, as well as others in NYC, since they're the ones most affected.

However, since what starts in the big cities evenutally finds its way to the smaller ones, everyone's opinion is valuable.

But those that have to deal with these changes and comment on it I find most interesting, due to the "insight" factor that one rarely gets in mainstream media. Keep 'em coming.

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:31 pm

ghost wrote:Since you live there, Pie, I'm most interested in your opinon on the matter, as well as others in NYC, since they're the ones most affected.

However, since what starts in the big cities evenutally finds its way to the smaller ones, everyone's opinion is valuable.

But those that have to deal with these changes and comment on it I find most interesting, due to the "insight" factor that one rarely gets in mainstream media. Keep 'em coming.

well I don't travel on the trains since my store is only several blocks away but people coming into my internet cafe have been bitching lately about delays and searches.
As far as profiling goes, well I don't know if thats gonna work. If you see me or u see my pic you would never take me for an arab you would think I was a wop. Unless the person was walking around in his sheets and kept his beard and stuff on, which at this point I doubt they would, they would/could look like just about anyone.
At this point, I really think we should just have a "Closed Door Policy" like Japan did years and years ago , cease all immigration temporarily, and patrol the borders much more strictly. We shouldn't have to live in fear in our own homes or hometowns. We also shouldn't have any loss of freedoms.

Pie

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:31 pm

They'd have to drag me to jail if they try to randomly search my bag. Profiling IS necessary, otherwise what Ghost said is right...you might as well not bother.

The same old ladies who are frisked in airports will also have their bags randomly searched now, and the danger will not decrease ONE IOTA.

ghost · Post by **ghost** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:36 pm

I want to add, before this thread continues, that in general I'm against increased safety at the expense of personal freedoms. I take these proposed measures on a case-by-case basis and weigh them carefully.

In this case, random searches...no, not unless you profile as well. In this case it would have to be racial profiling.

For those of you who are of Middle-Eastern descent or perhaps ACLU members/supporters and don't like my suggestion of profiling, I say tough luck. If I was in another country and the tables were turned, i.e., whites were bombing pedominanty Arab countries, I'd understand and comply, because I understand.

Further, once whites start bombing in the name of Islam, I will comply then as well, because then I will fit the profile too - fair is fair.

And please don't use some single event involving a white bomber, such as what happened in Oklahoma, in your rebuttal for what I'm saying. To make such a comparison is ridiculous and not germane to the events at hand, which are occurring every day by the same people in every part of the world.

ub3r_n00b · Post by **ub3r_n00b** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:42 pm

In all honesty, I dont have that much against bag searches and things like that, but they need to be less blunt with their "security" tactics. I dont thing a big ass smg (or whatever gun it was in burkes post) will do much against a bomb (as he was saying). They just use things like that for the "shock" effect, to make you terrorized so that you mindlessly fall into their trap.

Bag checks - fine. I have nothing to hide or fear.

What really creeps the F outa me is the anti terrorism center, I mean, it looks EXACTLY as you would predict for it to look in a movie. If Gmaps can zoom in on your roof, then there is no telling what they can do (of course Gmaps isn't live.. but you know.. that still a very scary thought..)

On top of that, the patriot act is ..well.. lets not get started.

Sorry folks but I am pretty strong about this stuff - I need my freedom and I will do whatever it takes to make sure that I have it.

ps - on my trip I was "randomly" checked every time... of course I said nothing, I have a goatee and I am brown - I mean - its expected.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:51 pm

Guess if people stay at home then they won't have these problems, that goes for army's too.
Stay out of other countries, and their problems won't come to you.

Rivas · Post by **Rivas** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:57 pm

Chris wrote: Stay out of other countries, and their problems won't come to you.

hmm,i really couldnt say it better

triniwasp · Post by **triniwasp** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:58 pm

I would much rather see a change in our foreign policy, than a change in how we are able to exercise our personal freedom

triniwasp · Post by **triniwasp** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:59 pm

Chris wrote:Guess if people stay at home then they won't have these problems, that goes for army's too.
Stay out of other countries, and their problems won't come to you.

Can I get a WITNESS!

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:02 pm

ghost wrote:The random searches are no good without profiling. That's the only way to make it effective. If you're not going to do that, then forget he random searches, it's like randomly shooting up in the air trying to hit a bird.

Some might say that they search enough old grandmas and Wall St. businessmen for the sole purpose of making their profiling of Arabs (among others) to appear "random." I don't doubt that the police have a certain profile in mind for their searches (trust me, it isn't your mother), and I'd bet that their bag-check of Sally from Queens is being done so there's less of an objection when they search Omar, who is visiting from Syria.

De Plano · Post by **De Plano** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:07 pm

I have only been through one airport check since 9/11 where I was not "randomly" pulled aside and checked. That is out of maybe forty times going through them.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:13 am

And please don't use some single event involving a white bomber, such as what happened in Oklahoma, in your rebuttal for what I'm saying. To make such a comparison is ridiculous and not germane to the events at hand, which are occurring every day by the same people in every part of the world.

Why not? They are the same type of people. Fanatics. Even though I understand what your saying, I'm not of the opinion that a fanatic fits any type of race profile.

Joint Chiefs of Staff · Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:19 am

Chris wrote:Guess if people stay at home then they won't have these problems, that goes for army's too.
Stay out of other countries, and their problems won't come to you.

When the terror attacks start coming to your country, to your very own door step, you may be singing a whole different tune.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:28 am

Joint Chiefs of Staff wrote:When the terror attacks start coming to your country, to your very own door step, you may be singing a whole different tune.

That may be true Pat, but who armed, trained and instigated this in the first place?
That pot has been stirred for many years by someone, now those who are tired of having THEIR pot stirred are lashing back.

Joint Chiefs of Staff · Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:31 am

Chris wrote:That may be true Pat, but who armed, trained and instigated this in the first place?
That pot has been stirred for many years by someone, now those who are tired of having THEIR pot stirred are lashing back.

The former USSR and the United States.

Hey, you have your opinion it's cool.

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 2:18 am

ghost wrote:
And please don't use some single event involving a white bomber, such as what happened in Oklahoma, in your rebuttal for what I'm saying. To make such a comparison is ridiculous and not germane to the events at hand, which are occurring every day by the same people in every part of the world.

Ghost it wasn't so long ago that the IRA was CONSTANTLY bombing in England and within Ireland, Scotland as well, OKC is just another example, what about the Anthrax guy, I bet he was white and american, and he took advantage of the fact that Arabs were being blamed for everything following 9-11, also what about the Unibomber who for years was randomly picking people to send letter bombs?What about the Hispanic gang-member from Chicago turned Moslem and was planning a dirty bomb attack? The White Kid from California who was found fighting in Afghanistan during the first attacks?

As an example..lets look at Israel, I bet there are Israeli Zionists who would go as far as killing their own people with a bomb just because the first person there to be blamed would be a palestinian, and its not like there aren't Zionists who aren't fighting their government now to avoid this pullout from Gaza. They would rather fight their own people then give up their lands.
The same thing could happen here, where some Christian or Catholic Fanatic hellbent on ridding the world of the Moslem race couldn't take advantage right now and kill americans in order to push their own agenda. At this point any race, creed or color is capable of anything.

Pie

Debbie · Post by **Debbie** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:39 am

I haven't yet had my bag checked on the train, but they do make announcements so that people waiting on the platform are aware that their bag can be checked. Honestly, I really don't mind.

Since the London bombings, there have been more cops at my home town train station and NY State troopers on the trains.

Debbie · Post by **Debbie** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:45 am

De Plano wrote:I have only been through one airport check since 9/11 where I was not "randomly" pulled aside and checked. That is out of maybe forty times going through them.

Well, I have been randomly checked and I am not Arab nor do I look like one.

Set · Post by **Set** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:46 am

What ever keeps us safe.. Id much rather have my bag searched then the guy next to me explode

Debbie · Post by **Debbie** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:48 am

[quote="Set"]What ever keeps us safe.. Id much rather have my bag searched then the guy next to me explode ]
That is exactlythe way I feel!

wee96 · Post by **wee96** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:51 am

If I was arab, I would understand rather than cry the race cry. Instead of trying to please everyone the government should do what works, and profiling does. Searching gramma doesnt.

Debbie · Post by **Debbie** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:08 am

Burke wrote:They'd have to drag me to jail if they try to randomly search my bag. Profiling IS necessary, otherwise what Ghost said is right...you might as well not bother.

The same old ladies who are frisked in airports will also have their bags randomly searched now, and the danger will not decrease ONE IOTA.

What makes you think profiling is necessary?

What makes you think it is just a freakin middle eastern person here to cause trouble?

What makes you think that there isn't a greedy white person who can make some money working with Al Queada?

I have thought of these questions many times.

triniwasp · Post by **triniwasp** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:12 am

wee96 wrote:If I was arab, I would understand rather than cry the race cry. Instead of trying to please everyone the government should do what works, and profiling does. Searching gramma doesnt.

So easy to say bs like that when your white.

wee96 · Post by **wee96** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:31 am

triniwasp wrote:So easy to say bs like that when your white.

Right.

Blisster · Post by **Blisster** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:19 pm

I'll take liberty over security, thanks.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:23 pm

I really hate this...and think it totally stupid and have to deal with this now on a daily basis working in NYC.

Even if there were a suicide bomber, if they go to search him, he still going to blow himself up and kill whoever..but really chances of catching someone is going to be so rare.

It a waste of money, time and resources let alone what happened to our liberties and needing probable cause to search? I can see it now..we are going to have to take off our shoes to go on the subway like they do at airports..then there will be metal detectors as well. Why dont we all just go around naked be lot easier..lol

BaghDaddy · Post by **BaghDaddy** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:05 pm

This thread has really been bothering me, i have read it over and over thinking about all the points raised.

The World has changed since the end of the Cold War, i was over in one of the biggest POW camps ever in the world "Berlin" our life expectance there was 48 hours, as it would take that long for re-enforcements to arrive if they could.

Down came the wall, along with that the world changed. In no way am i saying that the wall coming down was a bad thing, as the oppressed on the other side finally had freedom without risking the gauntlet.

Where there is change it effects everbody, every country.

Now we have fundalmentilists that say all Americans are the evil, and want to do anything and everything to rid all Americans on the planet. Where did they get those thoughts from, well many things could be pointed at what caused these thoughts.

These fundalmentilists can include any race, creed or gender. Yes the majority we see on the news are Muslims. What about WTC, Mail Bomber, Abortion / Olympic Bomber, the Shoe Bomber.

So when i marry my fiance, everybody is now going to consider me one, because of her decent? If they do they will get a good piece of my mind along with a little attitude adjustment, as she has helped bring down many fundalmentilists here.

Now we have increased checks or searches being impossed to deter this threat. Has anybody set back and thought, the reason behind this is that something was intercepted and an action needed to be taken immediately to deter the threat.

Yes it can make the everyday life harder, but you are also safer.

Trust me you do not want to live everyday wondering once you go outside the safety of your house will i be back for supper. I do that everyday, yes it is my decision and i do not regret it at all for being here as long as i have. The Iraqi's are feeling it everyday, hardly anybody goes out shopping any more due to the fear of might what happen.

Sit back and place yourself in that situation, and then think about what is being impossed to deter that happening.

Yes we are the land of the Free, along with Freedom there is some challenges, we are going through one of the challenges right now.

So the everyday life is being changed some with the deter of the threat, does that actually mean you are loosing your freedom?

Profiling use to work, but now there is a mix of these fundalmentilists races, creed and gender.

Blisster · Post by **Blisster** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:10 pm

How long until I have to wonder everytime I step outside my house, If I will be searched and possibly detained, for no apparent reason? Perhaps because of some belief I have espoused on a message board somehwere, or for a t-shirt that I like to wear? Maybe for a book that I purchased? A religon that I practice or a political party or ideology that I align myself with?
Sounds silly doesn't it?
Random bag searches on the NY subway sounded pretty silly 5 years ago too.

Debbie · Post by **Debbie** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:25 pm

BaghDaddy wrote:Yes it can make the everyday life harder, but you are also safer.

I agree with you there. I don't care if they check my bag. So what! They check it and afterwards I go. Big deal. It is not like they are going to put handcuffs on me and take me away.

I agree with your post 100% BaghDaddy!

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:30 pm

well after the first attack on wtc in the early 90's, nothing like this was done, and we went without any problems until 2001 , and without the need for any of this crap, National ID's, searches, checkpoints. Lets not forget that there were warning signs and people tried to make it known about Bin Laden and the warnings were ignored by people that don't have to worry, those same people have made multiple mistakes since,and we, as well as our Kids,the brave women and men in the service, men, women and children in other countries are all paying for their multiple mistakes, poor judgement, sloppy intel work. Its been 4 years and the mastermind behind all this is still at large.

Debbie · Post by **Debbie** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:38 pm

thepieman wrote:Its been 4 years and the mastermind behind all this is still at large.

The first time I laid eyes on him, I told my family: "There is something about him that makes me uncomfortable. I don't know what it is, I just don't like it."

Well, 4 years later, after all of this, I still do not like it. I find it hard to believe that they have not got him yet.