I am using a Netgear RT311 and an Netgear 8-port switch, which is being used to share my cable connection between 5 PCs.
I was told that Adelphia could see how many PCs were sharing the connection. Is this true?
I am using the latest firmware and everything is showing stealth.
Is there any way of Adelphia seeing how many PCs are behind a router?
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MegaVectra
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MegaVectra
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If your firewall is set up correctly (via NAT or whatever) then the answer is generally NO, they can't tell directly how many PCs are on your side of the router. What they CAN do is this: they can put a packet sniffer on your line, and can do a statistical analysis of the traffic on that line and estimate (read "guess") how many PCs could be on your side of the router. Now, before you let this worry you, let me point out a few other things about this:
1) It is very time consuming for the ISP to do this.
2) It can tie up expensive ISP equipment and resources to do this.
3) It requires a trained professional (expensive) to deciper and analyze the packet data.
4) This is an expensive and time consuming activity for the ISP to do.
So, will an ISP do this? Again the answer is generally NO. The ISP would not be able to recoup the expense of doing this, so it is not worthwhile for them to even try to do so. The exceptions to this may be if you are doing something that is screwing up the ISP's network, including (but not limited to) running a server with heavy traffic, messing up other user's access to the net, reselling your bandwidth, spamming, hacking, or similar activities, most of which would violate most ISP's TOS.
Point number 2:
I was talking on the phone with a teir 2 tech from a major ISP who claimed to have tools for cracking through routers. I find this to be unlikely for 3 reasons.
1) If such tools existed, then hackers would be using them to no end, and I have not heard of them doing this.
2) The tech said (when I told him I had a Linksys router) that Linksys had one of the best firewalls around. I had to laugh to myself about that, for Linksys routers don't even fully implement SPI yet.
3) If this were true, then why bother using NAT and a router in the first place? Let's get a little technical here. Most home routers I have seen assign IP addresses of 192.168.X.X. This group of IPs, along with others (like 10.X.X.X) are NOT directly routable to the internet. It is this way by design. So, if you use this group of IPs on your local network and your firewall is correctly configured, no one from the outside will be able to "see" them. The router/firewall translates these local addresses to a single public address assigned by your ISP. (This is basically what NAT does). So, as far as someone from the outside can tell, there is only 1 device hooked to the internet. As far as I know, no one can tell what type of device it is, it's just another MAC address.
This is a VERY oversimplifed explanation, but to go more in depth would be beyond the point of this post. Exceptions like the use of port forwarding and DMZ change everything.
Your mileage may vary. Subject to credit approval. See dealer for details.
1) It is very time consuming for the ISP to do this.
2) It can tie up expensive ISP equipment and resources to do this.
3) It requires a trained professional (expensive) to deciper and analyze the packet data.
4) This is an expensive and time consuming activity for the ISP to do.
So, will an ISP do this? Again the answer is generally NO. The ISP would not be able to recoup the expense of doing this, so it is not worthwhile for them to even try to do so. The exceptions to this may be if you are doing something that is screwing up the ISP's network, including (but not limited to) running a server with heavy traffic, messing up other user's access to the net, reselling your bandwidth, spamming, hacking, or similar activities, most of which would violate most ISP's TOS.
Point number 2:
I was talking on the phone with a teir 2 tech from a major ISP who claimed to have tools for cracking through routers. I find this to be unlikely for 3 reasons.
1) If such tools existed, then hackers would be using them to no end, and I have not heard of them doing this.
2) The tech said (when I told him I had a Linksys router) that Linksys had one of the best firewalls around. I had to laugh to myself about that, for Linksys routers don't even fully implement SPI yet.
3) If this were true, then why bother using NAT and a router in the first place? Let's get a little technical here. Most home routers I have seen assign IP addresses of 192.168.X.X. This group of IPs, along with others (like 10.X.X.X) are NOT directly routable to the internet. It is this way by design. So, if you use this group of IPs on your local network and your firewall is correctly configured, no one from the outside will be able to "see" them. The router/firewall translates these local addresses to a single public address assigned by your ISP. (This is basically what NAT does). So, as far as someone from the outside can tell, there is only 1 device hooked to the internet. As far as I know, no one can tell what type of device it is, it's just another MAC address.
This is a VERY oversimplifed explanation, but to go more in depth would be beyond the point of this post. Exceptions like the use of port forwarding and DMZ change everything.
Your mileage may vary. Subject to credit approval. See dealer for details.
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Kip Patterson
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MegaVectra
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YARDofSTUF
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jeffles37
LOL, last week:
Adelphia tech to my wife: "Oh a Linksys router. These are the easiest setups."
Her: "Good. Here is the password."
Him: "Thanks."
10 minutes later, he's gone, and we're up and running. Adelphia seems not to care at all about selling extra IPs. He was the second tech out here (1st to wire, 2nd to install) and the first guy made a comment about having the 3 port version at home.
Adelphia tech to my wife: "Oh a Linksys router. These are the easiest setups."
Her: "Good. Here is the password."
Him: "Thanks."
10 minutes later, he's gone, and we're up and running. Adelphia seems not to care at all about selling extra IPs. He was the second tech out here (1st to wire, 2nd to install) and the first guy made a comment about having the 3 port version at home.
One way they could tell if you have a router is by the MAC, if that person looking is smart enough.
Always copy the MAC from the NIC to your router. That way if they where to look, they see a NIC MAC.
Then always look at your router set up and not your computers when calling support.
Just my 2 cents on this......
Always copy the MAC from the NIC to your router. That way if they where to look, they see a NIC MAC.
Then always look at your router set up and not your computers when calling support.
Just my 2 cents on this......
Have Heart Will Fly!
U R ALL MISTAKEN
I work for a high speed cable co in tampa,fl I can assure you i can see all routers and ip's and all mac addy's of all devices hooked up to our modem !, thats right dont need the internet we use docsis tools that access the modem not from the internet, it dont matter what firewall is on there. our tools even show all ips that have been pulled since the account was created along with the macs of the addresses as well--- so there you go , it is possible to see all devices ..... i get people all the time that say they dont have a router but i look in my tools and see the manufacturer of the devices and i know right away, sometime i just let the customer think theyre fooling me.
P.s And brett ur full of it, i can tell in 30 secs whats attached to our modem we dont have to do all that to get that info...takes secs , our tools access the modem from special protocols on our network.
P.s And brett ur full of it, i can tell in 30 secs whats attached to our modem we dont have to do all that to get that info...takes secs , our tools access the modem from special protocols on our network.
I know that you can access a modem with special tools, I and my ISP have done it to my modem to assist in some toubleshooting. ( They needed my assistance more than I needed their's, but that's another story.) But all that anyone sees when they look at my modem is that 1 IP has been pulled, only 1 MAC is accessing the modem (which belongs to a network card that I own) along with some other information which is not relevant to this discussion. As far as anyone can tell, there is only 1 device on my side of the modem.
As I have stated in my previous post, if port forwarding or a DMZ machine is used, then that would change everything. This may make it easier to detect other devices. (Especially DMZ) Since I don't use these (no need) then I feel safe in saying that there is currently no way (other than the way described in my previous post) that anyone could determine what (if anything) resides on my side of the modem. Also, in my personal opinion, as long as I am not violating my TOS, (which I am not) then it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS what I may or may not have on my side of the modem.
Normally I do not respond to posts such as yours, but this time I felt that I just had to make these points. And a personal pet peeve of mine is that my name is spelled with only 1 "t", not 2, as it is displayed on this and my other posts.
Upon further thought, this has occured to me:
There may be a misunderstanding on the part of some users / tech support / others concerning the terms switch, hub, router.
If a modem were connected directly to a hub or a switch, then yes, you would see multiple IPs being pulled, and multiple MAC addresses. Also, you may be able to directly access the machines on the user's local network, unless measures had been used to prevent this. However, the whole point of using a router is to avoid all of this. A NAT enabled router would show only 1 MAC, and pull only 1 IP, regardless of the number of devices on the local side.
And I say again, the use of port forwarding and / or the use of a DMZ machine can change all of this.
As I have stated in my previous post, if port forwarding or a DMZ machine is used, then that would change everything. This may make it easier to detect other devices. (Especially DMZ) Since I don't use these (no need) then I feel safe in saying that there is currently no way (other than the way described in my previous post) that anyone could determine what (if anything) resides on my side of the modem. Also, in my personal opinion, as long as I am not violating my TOS, (which I am not) then it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS what I may or may not have on my side of the modem.
Normally I do not respond to posts such as yours, but this time I felt that I just had to make these points. And a personal pet peeve of mine is that my name is spelled with only 1 "t", not 2, as it is displayed on this and my other posts.
Upon further thought, this has occured to me:
There may be a misunderstanding on the part of some users / tech support / others concerning the terms switch, hub, router.
If a modem were connected directly to a hub or a switch, then yes, you would see multiple IPs being pulled, and multiple MAC addresses. Also, you may be able to directly access the machines on the user's local network, unless measures had been used to prevent this. However, the whole point of using a router is to avoid all of this. A NAT enabled router would show only 1 MAC, and pull only 1 IP, regardless of the number of devices on the local side.
And I say again, the use of port forwarding and / or the use of a DMZ machine can change all of this.
The WAN ip address is assigned the rotuer and that is what goes into the ISP's database. simple as that. what the router does with the LAN and WAN are totally separate. you ping a router (assuming its pingable, which it isnt) and you'll get the router. thats it. thats why routers are such good firewalls
simply put, ISPs cannot tell how many computers are behind the router because they are on totally different ip quadrants
simply put, ISPs cannot tell how many computers are behind the router because they are on totally different ip quadrants
Originally posted by UnitedWeStand Don't go walking up to her and say "I just had a vasectomy wanna celebrate?
Originally posted by EvilAngel Actually Kitten just got the sonagram done and the doc thought it was twins at first, but soon realized that it was the boys pen1s laying next to him....lol
Said by XSeanX on AIM I wish girls were a lot easier
Originally posted by Needlefreak May the fleas of a thousand taliban camels feast happily on your lower region..
Originally posted by Jim Heart attack on a bun?
Originally posted by EvilAngel Actually Kitten just got the sonagram done and the doc thought it was twins at first, but soon realized that it was the boys pen1s laying next to him....lol
Said by XSeanX on AIM I wish girls were a lot easier
Originally posted by Needlefreak May the fleas of a thousand taliban camels feast happily on your lower region..
Originally posted by Jim Heart attack on a bun?
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jeffles37
Right. The 192.168.xxx.xxx series can't be routed to the internet (as I understand) so I don't quite see how you would see that it is there. Unless routers start allowing access to anyone with DOCSIS tools (which I doubt they would--how fast would that stuff be on Morpheus?) I don't believe you can see a router beyone the MAC address it reports out.
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click_here
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- Location: Southern California
Re: Is there any way of Adelphia seeing how many PCs are behind a router?
you should back up a little,first of all,the answer to your question is NO!Originally posted by MegaVectra
I am using a Netgear RT311 and an Netgear 8-port switch, which is being used to share my cable connection between 5 PCs.
I was told that Adelphia could see how many PCs were sharing the connection. Is this true?
I am using the latest firmware and everything is showing stealth.
and second,I have adelphia cable isp,and there are no rules against having multiple pc's on one home connection as long as you don't run a server.
I woke up this morning, had them Statesboro Blues.
I looked over in the corner, and Grandpa seemed to have them too.
I looked over in the corner, and Grandpa seemed to have them too.
YEAH SURE
You guys keep thinking that, the tools have nothng to do with the internet it has to do with cisco and theos version, so anything u think about the internet from a pc side is useless, I can see manufactures of devices attached to a modem in about 15 secs and i know immeditaly if u have a router, and of course also depends on the isp's tools as well.I wish i could send ya some screen shots of what we see, but it would be a security issue. Im sorry you all dont believe me, If I were you and i called tech support id be really really nice to the people on the other end, have a good one..... 
Well, live and learn, I always say.
I must do a little revision to my last post.
Can an ISP see if you have a router? .... YES.
Tools exist that can unwrap a TCP packet and read the "fingerprint" of that packet. I understand that this info can tell them if you have a router. Cloning a MAC address will not change the results found by this method.
Can an ISP "crack" through a router? The answer, I believe, is still NO to this question. See reasons in my previous post.
Can they see how many machines are on the local side of the router? Don't know for sure anymore. It would depend on the information that can be collected from the TCP fingerprint. Since I have not used these tools myself, I can't say.
Does an ISP care if you use a router? Probably Not.
As long as you don't do something that screws up the ISP's network, or screws up other customers' access or violates your usage agreement ( like running a server, reselling bandwidth, spamming and similar activities) to such a degree that the ISP must take action then odds are that your ISP will never notice or care about your router.
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I must do a little revision to my last post.
Can an ISP see if you have a router? .... YES.
Tools exist that can unwrap a TCP packet and read the "fingerprint" of that packet. I understand that this info can tell them if you have a router. Cloning a MAC address will not change the results found by this method.
Can an ISP "crack" through a router? The answer, I believe, is still NO to this question. See reasons in my previous post.
Can they see how many machines are on the local side of the router? Don't know for sure anymore. It would depend on the information that can be collected from the TCP fingerprint. Since I have not used these tools myself, I can't say.
Does an ISP care if you use a router? Probably Not.
As long as you don't do something that screws up the ISP's network, or screws up other customers' access or violates your usage agreement ( like running a server, reselling bandwidth, spamming and similar activities) to such a degree that the ISP must take action then odds are that your ISP will never notice or care about your router.
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