The war... Pray.

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:39 pm

Pray for the families of those that will be lost due to an irrational attack upon Afganistan.

Pray that they will be able to still feed themselves, and keep shelter when their husbands, or wives, or children are destroyed by the heat and shock of the missles.

Pray that the United States remembers our roots, and shows mercy to the families.

Pray for the children, that they will not be forced to live in a world constantly under pressure.

Pray that the people will learn, not to hate America, but to learn that we only want world peace. (some of us).

Pray for our president, that he does not let anger dictate his actions.

Pray for the people af America, that we do not only look at it as retribution, but with a measure of pity for the children and families.

This war was inevitable, that was a given. The only thing that America can do now is to pray, and to hope for a graceful and quick eradication of the true enemy. Killing the civilians and innocents is wrong, and I do not believe that killing them will solve the problem. Isn't it better to take a stance of Mercy, than Hatred?

This is my opinion, take it as you will. But please, think hard about what is taking place today.

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:41 pm

having trouble spelling 'pray' lol

bush said in his speech they are going to give food and medical supplies to the afghany people, to aid them and free them from the Taliban

it's the tali's that are the baddys, and mr osama bin nice knowin ya

Dakota · Post by **Dakota** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:44 pm

Agreed. We're not there to kill their people and destroy their homes. Their evil form of government must be disbanded and the criminals within that country, that committed that heinous act against the United States, must be brought to justice. Whether it be by trial or death. They have chosen their own destiny. They made this decision, not us.

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:50 pm

They have chosen their own destiny. They made this decision, not us.

That is Hyprocacy. Three weeks ago, you would have given a lung to see the entire country paved over. And now you are saying that they started this war? It is always a choice, Jetta and Brent. Remember that, always remember that.

Dakota · Post by **Dakota** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 2:00 pm

So, we should just sit back and let the terrorists take over the world? No. We need to break up this gang that is against us and everything we stand for. We're not over there to murder people, but that (EDIT: Death of people, not murder) unfortunately is a bi-product of war. Their main reason in life is to kill Americans.

You want to be next? We gave them more than enough opportunity to avoid this. More than enough.

messiah · Post by **messiah** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 2:07 pm

The only thing irrational about the attack is that we are atttacking empty facilities almost a month after the fact.

We'll hear Bin Ladens words either tonight or tomorrow about the attacks.

btw, Pakistan has denouced us.

Dakota · Post by **Dakota** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 2:12 pm

Pakistan has not denounced the US. Militant Muslims have, which is expected.

Pakistan Militants Condemn Attack
10/07/2001 1:55 PM EDT Email this Story

By MUNIR AHMAD

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP) - Several Muslim leaders in Pakistan swiftly denounced U.S. and British attacks on Afghanistan Sunday, calling them brutal and unwarranted. One Islamic organization summoned Muslims to "extend full support to their Afghan brothers."

Amar Mehdi, spokesman for the militant Muslim group Harakat ul-Mujahedeen, condemned the military strikes on the capital, Kabul, as "a brutal attack on innocent people."

"Americans have used their might to kill innocent people in Afghanistan instead of targeting training camps about which they were talking and making a hue and cry," Mehdi said. There was no immediate indication of any casualties when he spoke.

messiah · Post by **messiah** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 2:14 pm

BJ, you'll hear about it tonight.

64bit · Post by **64bit** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 2:31 pm

Irrational??????? i Pray(sic) that you get some brains.

Gaming-Module · Post by **Gaming-Module** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 3:03 pm

RESOLVED!

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 3:07 pm

Originally posted by Paft

That is Hyprocacy. Three weeks ago, you would have given a lung to see the entire country paved over. And now you are saying that they started this war? It is always a choice, Jetta and Brent. Remember that, always remember that.

yes teh taliban did start this war adn i would give a lung to turn afghanistan into a big hoel to make lak afghanistan.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 7:49 am

Originally posted by Paft
Pray for the families of those that will be lost due to an irrational attack upon Afganistan.

Pray that they will be able to still feed themselves, and keep shelter when their husbands, or wives, or children are destroyed by the heat and shock of the missles.

Pray that the United States remembers our roots, and shows mercy to the families.

Pray for the children, that they will not be forced to live in a world constantly under pressure.

Pray that the people will learn, not to hate America, but to learn that we only want world peace. (some of us).

Pray for our president, that he does not let anger dictate his actions.

Pray for the people af America, that we do not only look at it as retribution, but with a measure of pity for the children and families.

This war was inevitable, that was a given. The only thing that America can do now is to pray, and to hope for a graceful and quick eradication of the true enemy. Killing the civilians and innocents is wrong, and I do not believe that killing them will solve the problem. Isn't it better to take a stance of Mercy, than Hatred?

This is my opinion, take it as you will. But please, think hard about what is taking place today.

Paft, have you lost all common sense?

Pray for the families of those that will be lost due to an irrational attack upon Afganistan

The US Military is bending over a$$ backwards to limit ALL COLLATERAL DAMAGE!!! That means limiting to the best of their abilities any civilian casualties. If the Taliban uses civilians as human shields...THAT'S ON THEM! It will be blood on their hands...not ours!

How on Earth could you be so callous and cold when the enemy has purposely killed/targeted/murdered 6000+ truly innocent American civilians in NYC?

I find your statements totally without logic or reason.

Pray that they will be able to still feed themselves

Are you blind???? Yes or No??? What on Earth do you think we are dropping off to all the people of Afghanistan in the form of humanitarian aid? Poison????

Paft, have you taken it upon your fine and upstanding self to write these statements to each of the WTC victims families?

FunK · Post by **FunK** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 9:57 am

Paft, your an idiot.

Take your "Save the innocents" **** and stick it in your ear!

We are doing EVERYTHING we can to avoid civilian casualties, PERIOD.
We are dropping food and medicine to the civilians and refugees.

Your IRRATIONAL. I don't know why I ever clicked on this thread. I just knew paft would be spurting off at the mouth.

Hi paft,

Welcome to IGNORE, enjoy your stay!

IranianHobo · Post by **IranianHobo** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 12:17 pm

Nice that we have such an open community at SG aitn it

Yeah Paft posted his opinions and you guys flame him for it. Oh and no matter how hard you try whenever you are shooting at something from a couple thousand miles away there will be collatoral damage. Either that or they will be truely ineffective and just good from putting money into Defense companies. If the US really wanted to save lives of Afghanis they would send ground troops, and risk of lives of several soldiers over the lives of Afghani civilians.

Oh and for you guys who love denouncing the Taliban goverment, I agreee the goverment there is not something I would like to live under, but they won a civil war and so some people there not here must support them. Goverment shjould be by the people right? Well they choose there goverment. Also the Talbian runs things a lot like the Saudi goverment (women in Suadi Arabis havent got very many rights either)....but we get along nicley with them dont we? Ever wonder why? I will give you a hint...puppet.

Same thing in Iran, the Islamic Republic of Iran is a lot more democratic then the only monarchy there...but the US denouces them. Why? Because they are Anti-US instead of accepting to be some little puppit.

The US has no place overthrowing goverments.

Dah well I got offa the subject, and yes civilians will die and whoever thinks otherwise has to be very iggnorant.

Prey521 · Post by **Prey521** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 12:24 pm

They're starting the second wave of attacks!!! Blast the suckas!!!!

Hey Paft, ya know I don't agree with the wholr "anti-war" movement in this case, but it is your opinion and I'll respect that.

Prey521 · Post by **Prey521** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 12:25 pm

Originally posted by Macho-Module

There are alot of those around here lately. There's one in this very thread.

Hey MM, question, not a flame or anything, but why do you feel the need to attack Brent?

Indy · Post by **Indy** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 12:36 pm

Well, it truly boils down to this and to think otherwise is foolish:

Innocent lives are going to be lost.

No matter which way you play the field, people will die.

Let's look at it from two perspectives...

1) We sit back and do nothing. This sends a message to the terrorists that we are afraid of them and they will come back again with an even bigger terror attack. At what point do you say "Enough's enough" and do something?

2) We launch a military action against those who perpetuate (sp?) terror. There are always the possibilities of civilian casualties during military conflict...no two ways around it...

So, you can either lose innocent lives at the hands of terrorists who are specifically targeting innocents, or you can have a military action that is targeting terrorists and their support base and have civilian collateral damage...

6000 dead vs. 20 dead

It doesnt take a first grader to figure the math on that one...

I don't want to see the lives of innocents extinguished, nor does anyone who values life. But a balance must be struck, and if it means some innocents may be killed in Afghanistan so that thousands may live in the US, then without question I'd have to support the military action, which I do.

Oh and for you guys who love denouncing the Taliban goverment, I agreee the goverment there is not something I would like to live under, but they won a civil war and so some people there not here must support them. Goverment shjould be by the people right? Well they choose there goverment.

I suppose that all the people that were extinguished in the concentration camps of Germany chose Hitler for their leader as well...they are being ruled through fear and fear alone...

The Taliban is nothing more than a group of armed thugs that overthrew the government and put in place their own views and beliefs...I don't believe they had an election allowing the population any say over what kind of government should be ruling them...

IranianHobo · Post by **IranianHobo** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 12:50 pm

Originally posted by Indy
I suppose that all the people that were extinguished in the concentration camps of Germany chose Hitler for their leader as well...they are being ruled through fear and fear alone...

The Taliban is nothing more than a group of armed thugs that overthrew the government and put in place their own views and beliefs...I don't believe they had an election allowing the population any say over what kind of government should be ruling them...

No I wouldnt think the Taliban has elections the way we have them either. But to say they were not chosen isnt possilbe, they were chosen by a recent civil war, in which they had the support of the people. And what I am saying is that the people of the US have no place chosing a goverment for the Afghani people. Which will happen if the US overthrows the Taliban either dircetley or indirectley.

And the people who chose Hitler as there leader were being lead by false promises and images not fear, or at least not during the begining of his rule.

I don't want to see the lives of innocents extinguished, nor does anyone who values life. But a balance must be struck, and if it means some innocents may be killed in Afghanistan so that thousands may live in the US, then without question I'd have to support the military action, which I do.

True a balance must be struck, but you are leaving soldiers out of this equation. They are just as innocent as us and thier lives just as precious however they are soldiers. The US no longer accepts the death of soldiers, the death of one US soldier gets more media time then the deaths of hundereds of hundereds of innocetent non-American civilians (in the US at least). The US needs to accept the loss of thier soldeirs over the lives of civilians, otherwise we are at the level of terrorists. (Just my opinion)

Also we can fight about wether these attacks will actually do anything to stop terrorists or if it will just trigger more attacks, but thats for another thread.

poptom · Post by **poptom** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 12:59 pm

Originally posted by IranianHobo
The US has no place overthrowing goverments.

Taliban is not government. It is a heavily armed faction attempting to take over the whole country and they presently have the upper hand. Collectively, they are not nice people. If the Taliban is broken up, individuals are more likely to think for themselves. Perhaps when this is over, folks will be able to vote.

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:06 pm

Originally posted by poptom

Taliban is not government. It is a heavily armed faction attempting to take over the whole country and they presently have the upper hand. Collectively, they are not nice people. If the Taliban is broken up, individuals are more likely to think for themselves. Perhaps when this is over, folks will be able to vote.

Look where that got us. Nixon, Clinton, Bush.

Voting isn't the best way, but the best way can never happen.

Indy · Post by **Indy** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:09 pm

And the people who chose Hitler as there leader were being lead by false promises and images not fear, or at least not during the begining of his rule.

This is the same with the Afghani's and the Taliban...they came in with promises of a better life and better prosperity, and in the end, twisted that, imposed their will by force, and commit attrocities (sp?) that are condemned worldwide. A group that singles out opposing religious groups by making them wear special markings on their clothes. A group that destroys other religions temples (the two large bhuddist statues ring a bell?). A group that attempts to use people as human shields ("Hey, we'll give you back your people that we're holding because they're Christians, but only if you promise not to attack us because we are hiding a mass murderer")...

It doesn't matter the fact that they had won the civil war. The fact is that they are a group of thugs exercising control over people who cannot defend themselves.

And what I am saying is that the people of the US have no place chosing a goverment for the Afghani people. Which will happen if the US overthrows the Taliban either dircetley or indirectley.

Our government has already said that they will have no hand in choosing the new government. They will allow the Northern Alliance, along with the exiled King of Afghanistan, through the United Nations, decide on there method of rule once the Taliban is disposed.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:14 pm

And what I am saying is that the people of the US have no place chosing a goverment for the Afghani people. Which will happen if the US overthrows the Taliban either dircetley or indirectley.

Iranianhobo...have you lost your mind as well? Did IQ's just drop sharply since the beginning of this thread?

How in the hell can you come off saying the people of the US will choose a government for the Afghani people???

Did you know that is a physical impossibility? Did you know that once the bombs started dropping that the Northern Alliance started to fight back gainst the Taliban regime? WTF...why do they call it a regime in the first place? Why doesn't the UN recognize the Taliban regime? If the Taliban gets overthrown...the Northern Alliance will hopefully take over on their own. We are not there to occupy...we are there to murder terrorists...thats it. If there happens to be some side benefits...we'll take it.

Now go back home...do your homework like a good little boy and post back when you actually know what you are talking about. I'm going to keep rebutting you as long as you keep posting your opinions as fact. If you stop, then I will cease also.

IranianHobo · Post by **IranianHobo** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:17 pm

Originally posted by poptom

Taliban is not government. It is a heavily armed faction attempting to take over the whole country and they presently have the upper hand. Collectively, they are not nice people. If the Taliban is broken up, individuals are more likely to think for themselves. Perhaps when this is over, folks will be able to vote.

Yes the Taliban is a goverment, even if you dont like it it still is a goverment. It is a goverment because it sets and administers rules and laws in a country. Also they determine foriegn policy for that area of space so yes they are a goverment.

And you qouted my saying the US has no place overthrowing goverments. Let me elaborta on that, the US does not choose "evil" goverment using a criteria that does not include the opinion of the people living in that nation. They instead look at what will benefit the US in the short term. That is why the US has no place over throwing goverments, because they have there own self interests in mind, not the interest of the indeginous people. If the US wants to replace the Taliban there actions should not recieve the dignity of being called overthrowing a goverment, because in truth it is no different from conquering.

K, I just read UOD's thread...watch as the sig changes. Oh and UOD i dont see you saying everything you say is your opinion and not fact..guess I should start rebutting you too?

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:23 pm

K, I just read UOD's thread...watch as the sig changes.

No, don't read my threads....go and read the news because you are now babbling like an infant....in other words, you don't make sense.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:27 pm

Originally posted by IranianHobo

Yes the Taliban is a goverment, even if you dont like it it still is a goverment. It is a goverment because it sets and administers rules and laws in a country. Also they determine foriegn policy for that area of space so yes they are a goverment.

And you qouted my saying the US has no place overthrowing goverments. Let me elaborta on that, the US does not choose "evil" goverment using a criteria that does not include the opinion of the people living in that nation. They instead look at what will benefit the US in the short term. That is why the US has no place over throwing goverments, because they have there own self interests in mind, not the interest of the indeginous people. If the US wants to replace the Taliban there actions should not recieve the dignity of being called overthrowing a goverment, because in truth it is no different from conquering.

K, I just read UOD's thread...watch as the sig changes. Oh and UOD i dont see you saying everything you say is your opinion and not fact..guess I should start rebutting you too?

you can't because you have no proof! You are entitled to your opinion...but don't pan it off here as fact...you know nothing about the subject. How many times do you have to be told that the US military is there to kill, not to occupy or topple the Taliban regime...if it does happen, it will be indirectly due to our campaign against terrorism which the Taliban supports. YES or NO? do you understand that? Why are you being so thick headed today?

IranianHobo · Post by **IranianHobo** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:28 pm

Originally posted by Indy

This is the same with the Afghani's and the Taliban...they came in with promises of a better life and better prosperity, and in the end, twisted that, imposed their will by force, and commit attrocities (sp?) that are condemned worldwide. A group that singles out opposing religious groups by making them wear special markings on their clothes. A group that destroys other religions temples (the two large bhuddist statues ring a bell?). A group that attempts to use people as human shields ("Hey, we'll give you back your people that we're holding because they're Christians, but only if you promise not to attack us because we are hiding a mass murderer")...

It doesn't matter the fact that they had won the civil war. The fact is that they are a group of thugs exercising control over people who cannot defend themselves.

Again I never said I supported the Taliban or what they did. But that does not mean that the majority of the Afghani people do not support them.

Originally posted by Indy

Our government has already said that they will have no hand in choosing the new government. They will allow the Northern Alliance, along with the exiled King of Afghanistan, through the United Nations, decide on there method of rule once the Taliban is disposed.

IMHO thats just impossilbe. Where does the power of the King and the Northern Alliance stem from??? The US that alone should be enough to show that this plan basically puts a puppet govt. into power. Also who says the PEOPLE support the Northern Alliance or the King?? There is a reason they no longer rule that country.

IranianHobo · Post by **IranianHobo** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:30 pm

Originally posted by uod2001

you can't because you have no proof! You are entitled to your opinion...but don't pan it off here as fact...you know nothing about the subject. How many times do you have to be told that the US military is there to kill, not to occupy or topple the Taliban regime...if it does happen, it will be indirectly due to our campaign against terrorism which the Taliban supports. YES or NO? do you understand that? Why are you being so thick headed today?

Thank you I do read the news and I am not say it is fact I dont tihnk anyone comes to SG for facts and understand everything is an opnion here. And UOD since when do you have so much trust in the goverment?

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:33 pm

But that does not mean that the majority of the Afghani people do not support them.

According to who? Did you take a gallop poll over there? See, more opinion coming off as fact.

The majority of the Afghani people fled to the borders...thats why there is a refugee crisis now.

You seriously need to read some history books son.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:39 pm

And UOD since when do you have so much trust in the goverment?

When 6000+ Americans died...I became a Team player to rid the world of the murderous bastards that call themselves terrorists.

IranianHobo · Post by **IranianHobo** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:39 pm

Originally posted by uod2001

According to who? Did you take a gallop poll over there? See, more opinion coming off as fact.

The majority of the Afghani people fled to the borders...thats why there is a refugee crisis now.

You seriously need to read some history books son.

Thanks I read plenty. And Afghani people (recentley) fled to the borders fearing US military action. They were already leaving becuase of a famine and war (most wars result in refugees). Adn of course some people just want to leave Afghanistan, but because they are leaving doesnt mean they dont support the goverment. Oh and how about you back up your point, how do you know they do not support the goverment? Oh and this "your dumb, I'm smart go read a book" **** isnt realy impressive I could do the same thing.

Trancentral · Post by **Trancentral** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:41 pm

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:44 pm

They were already leaving becuase of a famine

So you now say that the Taliban is incapable of feeding their own people...and now that the US has finally come to the rescue with air drops of food and medicine you somehow equate that to an overthrow of the Taliban regime...Hobo, I don't know what else to say and I'm done for now because you insist on spewing out nonsense....

Indy · Post by **Indy** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:46 pm

Again I never said I supported the Taliban or what they did. But that does not mean that the majority of the Afghani people do not support them.

Of course! What an idiot I am! All the people that support the Taliban are still there, while the ones that don't (all four million of them) have sought refuge in neighboring countries...

IMHO thats just impossilbe. Where does the power of the King and the Northern Alliance stem from??? The US that alone should be enough to show that this plan basically puts a puppet govt. into power. Also who says the PEOPLE support the Northern Alliance or the King?? There is a reason they no longer rule that country.

#1 - The king no longer rules there because he was exile in 1973 when his nephew seized control of the government.

#2 - The Taliban were able to overthrow the other factions in the region because of the firepower that they have in comparison. The weapons they have were gleaned from the Afghan-Soviet conflict of the 80s, as well as the combat experience that came along with it.

#3 - Who's to say that the people WON'T support the Northern Alliance? Since when do you have your finger on the pulse of the Afghani populace?

#4 - The Taliban support bin Laden, therefore are guilty by association. Just like if you witness a murder and say nothing of it, you can be tried for murder as well..

#5 -

If the US wants to replace the Taliban there actions should not recieve the dignity of being called overthrowing a goverment, because in truth it is no different from conquering.

-- how can this be considered conquering a country when the plan is to allow Afghani's to run their country? The exiled King is Afghani...the Northern Alliance is made up of Afghani's...I don't see us putting in a "Colonial Governor" in power there...

Trancentral · Post by **Trancentral** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:46 pm

IranianHobo · Post by **IranianHobo** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:46 pm

No a famine that was caused by drought. And many countries cant feed thier people.

If you know so much, how about you paint a complete picture instead of trying to bend words. I didnt go into detail about the causes of the famine cause I figured you would know, begin that you read newspapers and such.

mouse · Post by **mouse** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:50 pm

The Taliban is NOT a government, was NEVER a government and will Not be a government.

They are a regime that Tried to over take the country and appoint themselves as the government. No one would officially recognize them as a government because the nations seen them for what they are. A Breeding camp for Terrorist, a militia group that imposed their will by force (Public executions, skinnings, and bombings).

They hide behind the word of Allah. They twist the religion to fit their pervert agenda. Any religion can be interputed to many differant meanings.

They have gotten away with this by cutting the people off from any outside influence of TV, radio, or news. The people of Afghanstan are not stupid but uniformed. They have been brainwashed on the level of Jim Jones.

AoDLiQuiD-M3tH · Post by **AoDLiQuiD-M3tH** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:56 pm

Originally posted by mouse
The Taliban is NOT a government, was NEVER a government and will Not be a government.

They are a regime that Tried to over take the country and appoint themselves as the government. No one would officially recognize them as a government because the nations seen them for what they are. A Breeding camp for Terrorist, a militia group that imposed their will by force (Public executions, skinnings, and bombings).

They hide behind the word of Allah. They twist the religion to fit their pervert agenda. Any religion can be interputed to many differant meanings.

They have gotten away with this by cutting the people off from any outside influence of TV, radio, or news. The people of Afghanstan are not stupid but uniformed. They have been brainwashed on the level of Jim Jones.

Enough said

IranianHobo · Post by **IranianHobo** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:57 pm

Dah well this isnt getting anywhere. Indy I see where you are coming from and I hope you understand my position, guess this is like guns we will never find a common ground. Have a nice day.

-Kevin

(leave with a smile)

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:57 pm

No a famine that was caused by drought

What difference does it make? The people are starving to death...The Taliban did nothing...now we are, hence the airdrops. Do you think that is a bad thing Hobo? That we are helping the people?

poptom · Post by **poptom** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 1:58 pm

Originally posted by IranianHobo

Yes the Taliban is a goverment, even if you dont like it it still is a goverment. It is a goverment because it sets and administers rules and laws in a country. Also they determine foriegn policy for that area of space so yes they are a goverment.

Sorry, Hobo. I thought you were making a statement of fact, but since it's only an opinion, I will accept it as such.

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