Bufferbloat on Windows 10 machine, but no bufferbloat on Windows 7 machine

etc6849 · Post by **etc6849** » Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:07 pm

Hello Philip,

I've been trying to reduce my download loaded latency (bufferbloat), but not getting any where!?!

Just found your site, really wish I'd have found it sooner as I was trying a lot of tweaks manually and hadn't seen your lovely tool before.

I am also using a ASUS gaming network NIC (ASUS XG-C100C) on the problem machine, but have updated the firmware and I'm using the latest marvell/aquintia driver. I've also done a lot to get my internet faster like swapping in a DOCSIS 3.1 SB8200 modem, disabling bridging in my router and using a stand alone switch instead (took a lot of CPU load off my Ubiquiti POE EdgeRouter), etc...

However, on my Windows 10 machine, bufferbload / loaded download latency is very very high, so hopefully you have some ideas

1. What is your advertised internet speed ? i.e. 400Mbps/20Mbps

2. What actual transfer speed do you get?
Windows 10 LTSC Build 1809 Details: http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/64388708

As you can see, bufferbloat is terrible 400-800ms typically on the Windows 10 machine, while on the Windows 7 Ultimate machine it is consistently under 25ms.

Windows 7: http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/64388398

3. Who is your Internet Provider (ISP), and what type of connection do you have ? Spectrum (aka Time Warner service in Irmo, SC), SB8200 cable modem

4. What are your current settings ? do a TCP/IP Analyzer test and copy/paste the results in your post.
AutoTuningLevelLocal=normal
ScalingHeuristics=disabled
CongestionProvider=ctcp
ReceiveSegmentCoalescing=disabled
ReceiveSideScaling=enabled
Large Send Offload=disabled
Checksum Offload=enabled
MaxConnectionsPer1_0Server=10
MaxConnectionsPer1_0Server=10
MaxConnectionsPerServer=10
MaxConnectionsPerServer=10
LocalPriority=4
HostsPriority=5
DnsPriority=6
NetbtPriority=7
NonBestEffortLimit=0
Do not use NLA=1
NetworkThrottlingIndex=-1
SystemResponsiveness=10
Size=3
LargeSystemCache=1
MaxUserPort=65534
TcpTimedWaitDelay=30
TCPNoDelay=-1
DefaultTTL=64
EcnCapability=enabled
Chimney=disabled
Timestamps=disabled
MaxSynRetransmissions=2
NonSackRttResiliency=disabled
InitialRto(ms)=
MinRto(ms)=
[Local Area Connection]
MTU=0
MTU=0
TcpAckFrequency=-1
TcpDelAckTicks=-1
TCPNoDelay=-1
[Ethernet]
MTU=1500
MTU=1500
TcpAckFrequency=-1
TcpDelAckTicks=-1
TCPNoDelay=-1

5. Your modem/router/ap brand ? Motorola SB8200

Connection

The status listed show the connection state of the cable modem. They are used by your service provider to evaluate the operation of the cable modem.
Startup Procedure
Procedure Status Comment
Acquire Downstream Channel 495000000 Hz Locked
Connectivity State OK Operational
Boot State OK Operational
Configuration File OK
Security Enabled BPI+
DOCSIS Network Access Enabled Allowed

Downstream Bonded Channels
Channel ID Lock Status Modulation Frequency Power SNR/MER Corrected Uncorrectables
31 Locked QAM256 495000000 Hz 4.8 dBmV 42.6 dB 0 0
1 Locked QAM256 303000000 Hz 3.9 dBmV 43.7 dB 0 0
2 Locked QAM256 309000000 Hz 4.1 dBmV 44.0 dB 0 0
3 Locked QAM256 315000000 Hz 4.0 dBmV 44.1 dB 0 0
4 Locked QAM256 321000000 Hz 3.9 dBmV 43.9 dB 0 0
5 Locked QAM256 327000000 Hz 3.6 dBmV 43.7 dB 0 0
6 Locked QAM256 333000000 Hz 4.0 dBmV 43.9 dB 0 0
7 Locked QAM256 339000000 Hz 3.8 dBmV 43.7 dB 0 0
8 Locked QAM256 345000000 Hz 3.5 dBmV 43.5 dB 0 0
9 Locked QAM256 351000000 Hz 3.8 dBmV 43.8 dB 0 0
10 Locked QAM256 357000000 Hz 3.7 dBmV 43.5 dB 0 0
11 Locked QAM256 363000000 Hz 3.4 dBmV 43.3 dB 0 0
12 Locked QAM256 369000000 Hz 3.3 dBmV 43.3 dB 0 0
13 Locked QAM256 375000000 Hz 3.2 dBmV 43.1 dB 0 0
14 Locked QAM256 381000000 Hz 3.5 dBmV 43.2 dB 0 0
15 Locked QAM256 387000000 Hz 3.7 dBmV 43.2 dB 0 0
16 Locked QAM256 393000000 Hz 4.2 dBmV 43.2 dB 0 0
17 Locked QAM256 399000000 Hz 4.6 dBmV 43.3 dB 0 0
18 Locked QAM256 405000000 Hz 5.0 dBmV 43.7 dB 0 0
19 Locked QAM256 411000000 Hz 5.2 dBmV 43.5 dB 0 0
20 Locked QAM256 423000000 Hz 5.5 dBmV 43.6 dB 0 0
21 Locked QAM256 429000000 Hz 5.7 dBmV 43.5 dB 0 0
22 Locked QAM256 435000000 Hz 5.8 dBmV 43.1 dB 0 0
23 Locked QAM256 447000000 Hz 6.0 dBmV 43.6 dB 0 0
24 Locked QAM256 453000000 Hz 6.0 dBmV 43.5 dB 0 0
25 Locked QAM256 459000000 Hz 6.0 dBmV 43.5 dB 0 0
26 Locked QAM256 465000000 Hz 5.7 dBmV 43.3 dB 0 0
27 Locked QAM256 471000000 Hz 5.5 dBmV 43.2 dB 0 0
28 Locked QAM256 477000000 Hz 5.6 dBmV 43.1 dB 0 0
29 Locked QAM256 483000000 Hz 5.3 dBmV 43.2 dB 0 0
30 Locked QAM256 489000000 Hz 5.2 dBmV 43.2 dB 0 0
33 Locked Other 617000000 Hz 5.2 dBmV 40.0 dB 172996812 0

Upstream Bonded Channels
Channel Channel ID Lock Status US Channel Type Frequency Width Power
1 5 Locked SC-QAM 17600000 Hz 6400000 Hz 42.0 dBmV
2 6 Locked SC-QAM 24000000 Hz 6400000 Hz 42.0 dBmV
3 7 Locked SC-QAM 30400000 Hz 6400000 Hz 43.0 dBmV
4 8 Locked SC-QAM 36800000 Hz 6400000 Hz 43.0 dBmV

6. Your Operating System ? (i.e. XP,Vista 64bit,Windows 7, etc.)
Windows 10 LTSC Build 1809 on problem machine, Windows 7 Ultimate on good machine

Post by **Philip** » Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:56 pm

The different bufferbloat is likely caused by different buffering/congesion provider algorithm in both OSes, but not necessarily a bad thing. How often do you have the full 480MBps utilized, how often do you actually experience higher latency in Windows 10? The tests seem to show very similar pings.

etc6849 · Post by **etc6849** » Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:28 pm

Thanks Philip,

You are absolutely right, I don't see myself ever using 480Mbps on any one machine. I only know of the "lag" from running the dslreports or fast.com tests

As you hint at, the loaded latency indeed stays low on fast.com and dslreports until the test ramps up to full speed, then the bufferbloat begins to go higher and higher until the speed test is over.

It sounds like from what you're saying that I should be happy with it (in a practical sense) unless there is some website or service I use that will utilize 400+Mbps (truthfully, I am doubtful this will ever happen).

Out of curiosity, do you think reinstalling windows could possibly fix it? I'm just kind of bummed as I spent a fortune on a building a one of kind PC, only to have a 7 year old PC perform better in extreme speed test. Some pics of what truly custom machined aluminum chassis plus water-cooling look like:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1HbVVkksxh9iEOqh0WGsYLCPCtWYROm-3?usp=sharing

I will likely wait until the next Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC release next year (these come out about every 3 years) before a fresh install of windows 10.

PS: on my system Windows 10 LTSC Build 1809, your tool does not seem to set CTCP as "netsh interface tcp show global" reports default still. I found this registry fix that will indeed get it to set to ctcp. I think I grabbed it from reddit (not sure), and it's not my work.

Code: Select all

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Nsi\{eb004a03-9b1a-11d4-9123-0050047759bc}\0]

"0200"=hex:00,00,00,00,01,00,00,07,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,1e,00,00,00,00,00,\

00,00,00,00,00,00,02,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,ff,\

00,ff,00,ff,ff,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,ff,ff,ff,ff,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,\

ff,ff,00,00,ff,ff,ff,ff,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00

"1700"=hex:00,00,00,00,01,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,\

00,00,00,00,00,00,02,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,\

00,ff,00,ff,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,\

ff,00,00,00,ff,ff,ff,ff,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00

Also, to fully reset TCP (your tool and command line both give a failure for one of the resets), I had to:
disable the connection first, then set the permissions to full for everyone in: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Control\Nsi\{eb004a00-9b1a-11d4-9123-0050047759bc}\26

After that I was able to fully reset TCP without a failure.

Philip wrote:The different bufferbloat is likely caused by different buffering/congesion provider algorithm in both OSes, but not necessarily a bad thing. How often do you have the full 480MBps utilized, how often do you actually experience higher latency in Windows 10? The tests seem to show very similar pings.

Post by **Philip** » Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:16 pm

You are right, there are not many single sites that would be able to provide a 480Mbs single stream to all their clients, so you don't have to worry about it much.

That's a sweet rig, whoa, thanks for sharing. I do have a couple of aluminum Lian Li cases and I've been upgrading/tinkering with rigs since last century, but I prefer the big Noctua heat sinks w 120mm quiet fans than water cooling, just a personal preference.

As to the regedit code, it's available in our tweaking article here: https://www.speedguide.net/articles/win ... weaks-5077 (that's where people got if likely to post on reddit). Were you running command prompt (or the Optimizer) as admin to reset TCP/IP/Winsock?

"netsh interface tcp show global" may not always agree with the "Get-NetTCPSetting" PowerShell results, Microsoft is slowly phasing it out as means of changing/checking settings. Still, some parameters must still be set using netsh depending on the OS build, it's a bit of a mess.

I wouldn't reinstall Windows, but you can try with different "congestion providers" like Cubic, etc..

etc6849 · Post by **etc6849** » Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:31 pm

Philip wrote:Were you running command prompt (or the Optimizer) as admin to reset TCP/IP/Winsock?

Yes as admin, and also ran TCPOptimizer as admin.

TCPOptimizer Reset TCP/IP output:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zHc0QL1X0zpMDTlxshpt0zr3IriT5QSy/view?usp=sharing

Where I found the work around:
howtofixwindows.com/fix-one-or-more-network-protocols-are-missing/

Philip wrote:"netsh interface tcp show global" may not always agree with the "Get-NetTCPSetting" PowerShell results, Microsoft is slowly phasing it out as means of changing/checking settings. Still, some parameters must still be set using netsh depending on the OS build, it's a bit of a mess.

Yep, sounds like a mess! TCPOptimizer is definitely setting it if I look at the "Internet" settings template, and I verified that template is what is being used by fast.com using "Get-NetTCPConnection." All is well here, thanks for teaching me something!

The other congestion providers I tried made no difference in the behavior, which is interesting...

Post by **Philip** » Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:03 am

Here is another small detail, typically you should be editing the the "CurrentControlSet" key in the registry, not "ControlSet001" to get full permissions, as in:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Nsi\{eb004a00-9b1a-11d4-9123-0050047759bc}\26

The CurrentControlSet is the one currently in use. It is actually a symbolic link to either the "..001" or "..002" variant currently in use. The "..001" and "..002" variants are alternating backup copies of each other used for recovery, for "Last Known Good Configuration" on boot. By editing the "CurrentControlSet" you are making sure your settings are actually changing the current working copy, otherwise it's a hit or miss.

etc6849 · Post by **etc6849** » Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:52 pm

Wow, thanks!

I've done some programming (mainly scripting) as a hobby. The windows registry is a mystery to me, as I could never find any formal documentation of it.

I assume most of the posts like the one I linked to above are from people reverse engineering things (e.g. do a before and after text comparison of a registry backup).

I will do the change below and see how a TCP reset goes with TCPOptimizer.

Philip wrote:Here is another small detail, typically you should be editing the the "CurrentControlSet" key in the registry, not "ControlSet001" to get full permissions, as in:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Nsi\{eb004a00-9b1a-11d4-9123-0050047759bc}\26

The CurrentControlSet is the one currently in use. It is actually a symbolic link to either the "..001" or "..002" variant currently in use. The "..001" and "..002" variants are alternating backup copies of each other used for recovery, for "Last Known Good Configuration" on boot. By editing the "CurrentControlSet" you are making sure your settings are actually changing the current working copy, otherwise it's a hit or miss.

etc6849 · Post by **etc6849** » Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:10 pm

I modified:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Nsi\{eb004a00-9b1a-11d4-9123-0050047759bc}\26

I noticed the permissions get reset back to normal after a reboot, so I just made the permission change giving EveryOne full access, ran TCPOptimizer then did a TCP/IP reset. Worked fine!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OALv5PFSxJHZBiLNny6mblsaP9kmHbM-/view?usp=sharing

Tried it again after reboot, and it gives the same failure as before. Definitely seems like a windows bug to me... Why offer a TCP reset command that isn't going to fully reset things!?!

It may not be present in current Windows 10 builds. I just use the Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2019 version as it doesn't have all the bloatware (no windows store, etc...), has a lot better privacy settings out of the box and best of all it has no ads

Post by **Philip** » Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:03 pm

Thanks for testing, much appreciated. Yeah, the TCP Optimizer reset should be the same as running the netsh one in command prompt.

That one Registry key has been giving issues with permissions in some older builds as well. Resetting TCP/IP actually runs like 10 different smaller "resets", and this key is just one small portion of them, it also is usually empty, so I don't know how much difference it makes overall. I believe TCP/IP resets just fine, even without being able to erase/recreate this one key.