Ken wrote:You asked for thoughts on this...
Jeremy, I'm not trying to be hard on you, you asked for opinions and I am being truthful. I am not a professor nor teacher, however this article of yours helps prove my points. On a HS level, I would give this a B, as for a college student... WOW... at least you took the time to type it, even if you were tired and hungry...
This looks like something a school kid would throw together the night before it is due... Not a lot of thought, sustainable facts, references, information... enough said... Sorry, however it doesn't impress me, not from a college student... Good Luck!
You misunderstand the nature of the article. This is not a research paper. It is not for a class or a grade. It is half of a short opposing article for the student newspaper. It is meant to be short and bias. If you would like to see one of my actual undergraduate research papers from last semesters I would happy to send it to you. I think it had 16 different creditable references. Which included three live interviews with experienced professional in the related field.
If you are seriously going to take this short piece here to vindicate some preconceived notions about the state of current college education than I have to question the value of your input, Ken. But, let’s take a look at what you got here.
"The other 29% must have came from free scholarships as students graduating typically have not established jobs yet. One would expect that they would have debt...
Simply because it says 71% of A that does not mean there is necessarily a 29% of B. There could be only 2% of B and 27% of C or 15% of B, 5% of C and 9% of D.
Many students both go to school and work; paying for their education as much as they can. Some are lucky enough to still be able to live at home where the parents can help cut the cost of living; saved money they can put towards paying tuition. Some sell their belongings and they empty their savings. Some students get funding from family.
And there is also work study funds; the reason I write these little articles for the school newspaper is because they pay me. You are right that if I turned this for a grade on an actual research paper I would fail horribly, but since the student newspaper is ran by a bunch of students who don't have a lot of spare time the standards are not very high. We are paid for four hours of work on each article; even though, with interviews and revisions they take longer than four hours.
"Have you ever priced tools, equipment, vehicles and such, that many must buy to get a job? (A job above minimum wage which is what a college graduate would be going for...) I won't get into the costs of starting a business... I also would believe that as time goes by and population increases, more people are enrolling into college, so more teachers, material, buildings, etc., would be needed and would need to be paid for... How does that increase look when compared to different timeframes, i.e. 10 years, 20 years, 30 years ago and how does it relate to inflation/cost of living increases? "
I would also assumed a correlation between the rise of student loans and a rising cost of college. What happens when the cost of college outweighs the benefit of college? If we don't do something to alleviate cost that is a potential outcome.
“Dedicated students? How about some details on what "dedicated students" means? Should a D student that has done the minimum to graduate high school, qualify? Will the C & D students have the aptitude and desire/motivation to use this "free" education to better themselves and justify the cost to taxpayers?
Your numbers don't quite line up, if a 2 year degree costs $7600 ($3800 x 2) and a 4 year degree costs $29,400, that leaves a difference of $21,800 for the extra 2 years...
What about trying to lower the cost of the 2 extra years instead? It would at least give some credence to students that have proven they will stick with it instead of people that are clueless fresh out of high school...”
Dedicated is my own terminology. The plan requires the student to keep a 2.5 GPA. Which I personally feel is a bit low. I think a 3.5 should be closer to the mark. I even feel that having students compete academically for a limited available seats may not be a bad idea. But as I have said a number of times, this particular article is supposed to carry a hint of bias. So I omitted that point and I am trusting the other reporter to address it.
“I call bull$hit on those "estimated" stats, enough said...”
I don’t really care if you call BS. Provide criticism of the source (whitehouse.gov), an opposing argument, opposing data or it really is “enough said”.
“How about forcing these people with student debts to...pay for their debts with all of the money they will make because they have that degree? Perhaps the IRS should start hitting their income tax returns like they do for others, perhaps it should greatly affect their credit score so they will have a good reason to pay it.”
I have actually done a bit of reading, in the past, on student loans and from what I read repayment is pretty much inescapable short of leaving the country and defaulting can have some harsh consequences. Generally even after declaring bankruptcy you still have to repay student loans. Can you provide some opposing data showing otherwise?
“Or perhaps college degrees don't guarantee that a person will make much more than minimum wage...”
College degrees don’t guarantee anything. They create opportunities that may have not been there before. In my chosen field of study they pretty much said you will not making a living writing books. Good thing for me I have other skills to fall back on, if things don’t pan out.
“What that does not disclose is the fact that MANY young people do not want to work. As an employer, I see this everyday. They will apply for jobs so they can continue getting aid, when their time expires, they will get a job and do poorly on it by constantly using their phone for socializing and personal needs, show up late, request to leave early...and this is while they are on a probationary period. They will try to keep the job just long enough so they can get more unemployment benefits. I personally know some 20 year old, healthy young men that get food stamps...”
I believe those stats are about unemployment rate and not necessarily who is collecting unemployment. But regardless they still show a positive correlation between having a job and having an education. Bottom line is education creates more employment opportunities. In fact some employers will not even look at you unless you have at least a 2 year degree.
“Ones that do not finish high school should not even be used in these comparisons...meaningless for this study as it has nothing to do with college and they will be a burden on society anyway...”
I did not graduate high school. Are you then calling me a burden on society? Do you envision that I live off government aid? Or do you envision someone who got their first job (with the Forest Service cleaning outhouses and campgrounds) at age 14 and had to walk two hours to get to work and two hours to get home five days of the week? Is that a lazy youth? Not to mention at the time my family was building a house, so I was coming home to clearing logs, digging and whatnot. I had a job every summer break and I moved out of my parents’ house at 18 years old. Got my first job as an adult and have been working ever since. I have a solid work history that I can use to get a job just about anywhere. Ken, I would match my work ethics with any person here.
“Something is not right with these stats. 2 adults, 1 child - $27,756 year vs. 1 adult 1 child - $31,140... So it is >$3300 cheaper for 2 adults to live? You might want to recheck those numbers...”
They are calculating the average cost of daycare for a single parent.
“And put against your previous numbers $30,000 for HS grad, the solution that would seem best is to use birth control as 1 adult 1 child needs $31,140 or a deficit of $1,140 for a single parent with child, which will undoubtedly be receiving federal aid so add that in... Self responsibility would solve these problems quick and easy, give out free condoms...”
I agree. Less unprepared parents would also lessen welfare cost and we could then use that money for education.
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Stephen Hawking
And as I said before, the estimated 35% of our workforce in 5 years will need a 4 year degree, that you stated, is complete bull$hit... 
