Good Job Texas!!

[Sava700]

Texas is preparing to give college students and professors the right to carry guns on campus, adding momentum to a national campaign to open this part of society to firearms.

More than half the members of the Texas House have signed on as co-authors of a measure directing universities to allow concealed handguns. The Senate passed a similar bill in 2009 and is expected to do so again. Republican Gov. Rick Perry, who sometimes packs a pistol when he jogs, has said he's in favor of the idea.

Texas has become a prime battleground for the issue because of its gun culture and its size, with 38 public universities and more than 500,000 students. It would become the second state, following Utah, to pass such a broad-based law. Colorado gives colleges the option and several have allowed handguns.

Supporters of the legislation argue that gun violence on campuses, such as the mass shootings at Virginia Tech in 2007 and Northern Illinois in 2008, show that the best defense against a gunman is students who can shoot back.

"It's strictly a matter of self-defense," said Republican state Sen. Jeff Wentworth. "I don't ever want to see repeated on a Texas college campus what happened at Virginia Tech, where some deranged, suicidal madman goes into a building and is able to pick off totally defenseless kids like sitting ducks.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/ ... ?tag=stack

[CiscoKid]

Just great...I went through 4 years of high school worrying about who had a gun and who didn't...who did I need to worry about pissing off and who was cool...

Guns do NOT belong in any educational environment, this isn't 1811, it's 2011! There's no wild injuns around every rock!

Sava, would you support allowing guns on high school campuses to prevent another Columbine?

[Sava700]

Sava, would you support allowing guns on high school campuses to prevent another Columbine?

You have to remember this is for those 21 years or older and have been background checked with a valid permit to carry - this isn't the case where people will walk on to campus and be handed a 9mm with a pack of gum and a history book.

So long as your properly trained to carry, have a valid permit (all of which you must be 21years of age) then you should be able to carry anywhere you please. But if I remember correctly in my history lessons in the year 1811 multiple chambered weapons weren't invented till 1835.

[YARDofSTUF]

Just great...I went through 4 years of high school worrying about who had a gun and who didn't...who did I need to worry about pissing off and who was cool...

So you're comparing people who carried them illegally in school and most likely had gang affiliations to those that carry legally owned guns with a permit?

I'm not sure how I feel about it overall, but with a couple states doing this I guess we will get some data on it.

[blebs]

So you're comparing people who carried them illegally in school and most likely had gang affiliations to those that carry legally owned guns with a permit?

I'm not sure how I feel about it overall, but with a couple states doing this I guess we will get some data on it.

I agree. About the data, we will always have nut jobs in our society, so don't plan on using data to prove or disprove the validity of concealed carry.

[YARDofSTUF]

I agree. About the data, we will always have nut jobs in our society, so don't plan on using data to prove or disprove the validity of concealed carry.

I don't see how nutjobs would alter the data, they're the ones that would be shooters regardless of these laws. 1 or 2 wackos holding someone at gunpoint thinking their saxophone case is a bomb and calling the poilce won't harm effect the overall data much.

The main thing to watch for, is when a shooting does accruing at one of these schools, do the students that carry help in slowing down the shooter, or are there issues with students that carry being wronly identified as additional shooters, and do other injuries pop up from it. So we have to wait for another tragedy to happen.

[Roody]

Terrible idea.

[raymondparsley56]

I'm by no means a lib. And I don't think this is a good idea. Do we all realize the potential for accidental death here? Hand guns casually lying around dorm rooms and on the tables and chairs and in the laps of people in the common areas doesn't make good sense. I KNOW!!!......but it won't be like that you say. Are we to expect each and every person that carries a hand gun on campus to respect and handle the gun like a police officer or a military trained individual would? The variables for disaster are over whelming. It's as if the law makers and those responsible for passing such a law have gone partially insane. Or at least have been blinded some how to the accidental death probability here. WOW! This almost doesn't seem real. Students acting as police officers if a shooting brakes out and also being expected to kill another human being. What about those that get killed during the episode. Those that are hit by bullets not meant for them because the student that is trying to take down the shooter misses and hits an innocent by stander in the head with a fatal shoot right between the eyes. Lucky Shoot???? I don't think so. And all because that student wasn't well trained in combat but only had some shooting lessons. Wake up people.
What about the nights when the young bulls are drinking and showing off their special hand gun? And I'm not talking about their you know what. I'm talking about a loaded gun being fired off during a drunken summers night party. I've said enough. I've said more than enough. Wake up people.

[YARDofSTUF]

Paragraphs man, paragraphs!

[RoundEye]

I’m on Sava’s side the fence. I bet you it will be a long time, if ever, we have another school shooting if more colleges enact this. Usually people who carry concealed weapons are more responsible people as a whole. I just worry about late-night drunken frat parties.

People target school campuses because they know nobody there can shoot back. Bringing this into law could change that.

I have no problem with allowing law-abiding citizens concealing their weapon on campus.

[Sava700]

People target school campuses because they know nobody there can shoot back. Bringing this into law could change that.

I have no problem with allowing law-abiding citizens concealing their weapon on campus.

It's not just school campuses...its anywhere there is a mass amount of people they know they can take down before they get taken down themselves. Examples could range from a food market, mall or just a mass gathering of people at a local park. At times I don't agree with the ability of businesses such as malls to restrict them either since many now may have security guards but the ones around here aren't allowed to carry guns so what good are they..you can only hope for a off duty cop who carries to be on scene. When you have someone that can shot back the focus of that killer will now turn to defending him/her self towards the fire being returned rather than continuing to inflict more shots towards others that can't do anything. This is the reason why many cops are told when a shooting happens in a school or location with many people they are to just go on in and take the subject out at all costs or at least draw fire to prevent more innocent from getting hit.

[Ken]

Just because you have a license to drive a car doesn't mean that you are a good responsible driver...
I am not so sure of the need to carry guns on campus... It makes for situations to be able to escalate to deadly potential very easily, forget about e-balls, think about the ego/power trips that a 21 YO can get from carrying a gun to class... I won't get into the problem with "good intentions"...well, he was bullying him,...misunderstandings, etc... Frat parties!...heheheheeheh A bunch of drunken/drugged barely adults, no actual life experience yet,...carrying weapons... Lets kick it up a notch...

I don't believe that our country has became so hostile that guns need to be carried on campus due to the majority of people in fear for their lives...

Media hype and people rushing to opinions/conclusions... Cisco was on it as it will be like the days of the wild west,...we never learn from past, do we...

[Far-N-Wide]

I drop to one knee in honor of this plan. In Texas as compared to other states, crime is lower… across the boards. You will always have nut jobs. Do you think those folks will have a legal permit? Let folks who meet the requirements and are responsible enough to register pack as much heat as they are allowed by LAW.

[Sava700]

Just because you have a license to drive a car doesn't mean that you are a good responsible driver...

We are not talking about a car though and obtaining a drivers license is way too easy to start with and a whole other subject but I see what your getting at. A carry permit should be much harder to get for sure since here in VA you only need to have a hunters education certificate to get the ball rolling and no matter if you got it 20years ago you can still use it. I feel there should be a requirement of 8 hours or more in courses and on hands training with the weapon of choice along with the state/fed background checks.

Remember, to get a license to drive a car puts you at the age of 16 - you have to be 21 to own/carry a hand gun

[Ken]

We are not talking about a car though and obtaining a drivers license is way too easy to start with and a whole other subject but I see what your getting at. A carry permit should be much harder to get for sure since here in VA you only need to have a hunters education certificate to get the ball rolling and no matter if you got it 20years ago you can still use it. I feel there should be a requirement of 8 hours or more in courses and on hands training with the weapon of choice along with the state/fed background checks.

Remember, to get a license to drive a car puts you at the age of 16 - you have to be 21 to own/carry a hand gun

I can't say for other states, however I know many people here in FL that have the permits and quite frankly, some of them are just plan scary... A couple are boarder line gang bangers... I'm just saying that getting a permit is not always a hard thing for bad people as many have been lucky and haven't been caught...yet anyways...

[Sava700]

I can't say for other states, however I know many people here in FL that have the permits and quite frankly, some of them are just plan scary... A couple are boarder line gang bangers... I'm just saying that getting a permit is not always a hard thing for bad people as many have been lucky and haven't been caught...yet anyways...

Bad people that do bad things won't fool with getting a permit to cause these bad things! If some truly wants to commit a crime with a gun they will find a way to get one and use it - plain and simple. To restrict those that are law biding from protecting themselves anywhere they go is a restriction against the right to life.

[Sava700]

Good Job Arizona!!! Now Texas has to finish up and then we can move on to other states!

PHOENIX - A proposal to let people have guns while driving or walking through state university and community college campuses cleared its final hurdle in the Arizona Legislature on Thursday.

The House passed the bill on a 33-24 vote, which will send it to Gov. Jan Brewer.

The Senate previously approved the measure, after watering it down to no longer allow guns inside campus buildings. But the bill still sparked sharp debate before Thursday's House of Representatives vote.

State Rep. Bob Robson said guns on campuses are a bad idea because students and others experience such emotional highs and lows due to grades, exams and other circumstances.

"To make it that you could walk up to the door of an education institution (with a gun) makes no sense to me," he said.

But supporters said the bill would help people defend themselves from gun violence by someone who won't heed a campus's firearms ban.

"I find it hard to believe that on universities it just becomes a bubble — that somehow you're drastically protected when you enter the campus," Democratic Rep. David Gowan said.

The Texas Senate on Thursday cut off debate on a broader campus-guns bill that, like the original Arizona measure, would allow holders of concealed-weapons permits to carry concealed weapons in classrooms.

If the Texas legislation passes, the state would become the second, following Utah, to pass such a broad-based law. Colorado gives colleges the option to allow handguns.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/ ... ?tag=stack

[CiscoKid]

You have 35,000 total students ON CAMPUS at a major university, at any given time betwen the student union, book store, library, and cafeteria, you can have up to 5000 students. One lone psycho decides to open fire. In an area maybe 200 yards, people start running in every direction, NO clear line of site for a bullet to travel without hitting a bystanders. How would five more guns help the situation unless on of them was a long range riffle in the hands of a well trained marksmen?

I know several people with conceal carry permits that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if their life depended on it...let alone be trusted to lock up the weapon before hitting the bars or heading to the nearest frat party

[Sava700]

You have 35,000 total students ON CAMPUS at a major university, at any given time betwen the student union, book store, library, and cafeteria, you can have up to 5000 students. One lone psycho decides to open fire. In an area maybe 200 yards, people start running in every direction, NO clear line of site for a bullet to travel without hitting a bystanders. How would five more guns help the situation unless on of them was a long range riffle in the hands of a well trained marksmen?

I know several people with conceal carry permits that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if their life depended on it...let alone be trusted to lock up the weapon before hitting the bars or heading to the nearest frat party

Your basing what you know on your "several people" you know that couldn't hit anything cause they aren't properly trained to carry. IMO you should be properly trained to get that permit and to carry. What you have is a possible One lone psycho whom decides to pick victims at random but one just happens to be packing to defend themselves. I don't expect to see RAMBO jump up and rip the psycho's head off or fire one head shot to end all but those that wish to defend themselves be it cornered in a room,court yard or what have you have that right to do live as a means of protection.

Those that you know that have permits that you don't trust certainly need friends to make sure they take the right decisions, cause at the end of the day it's those people that cause problems not the civil minded, properly trained and law abiding citizens or the guns.

[CiscoKid]

The last I checked, all you needed to get a conceal carry permit around here was take a weapons safety class, pay a fee, and get a background check. If the proper training you're talking about is that safety class...it's five hours of telling you how to handle the clean, never to leave a round in the chamber, and to always lock up the weapon when not in use. Nothing about having to be a good shot, in situations like a college campus, I really think the risks out weigh the benefits. One shooter hitting 10 people compared to 2 shooters hitting 30

[Sava700]

The last I checked, all you needed to get a conceal carry permit around here was take a weapons safety class, pay a fee, and get a background check. If the proper training you're talking about is that safety class...it's five hours of telling you how to handle the clean, never to leave a round in the chamber, and to always lock up the weapon when not in use. Nothing about having to be a good shot, in situations like a college campus, I really think the risks out weigh the benefits. One shooter hitting 10 people compared to 2 shooters hitting 30

Again, I don't expect nor do I wish that anyone take the "RAMBO" effect. There has been only one recent instance where someone was armed to ward off a psycho attacker and that was at a church a while back. Now, in this state your not allowed to carry in the most dumb places such as college campuses, malls, churches ect..but this are the places someone will go to commit the most damage since there is always alot of people near by. But this one instance I remember of someone shooting back and taking down the psycho worked and worked well enough not many shots were fired cause they didn't expect to get shot back at so soon let alone hit from someone that was trained on how to shoot.

To carry a permit and carry a gun you should have on site courses on firing the weapon in tactical situations. If you want it that bad for protection you will invest into the time and spend the money to take this type of training.

[CiscoKid]

Just out of curiosity, what's the crime rate in your area? Just this last weekend, a 14 year old boy was shot in a possible gang related shooting down the street from my cousins house. This same park saw 7 old men gunned down last summer. Random shootings are a daily occurance around here and most times don't even make it to the headlines other then "Police are searching for a suspect in the shooting death of" on the morning news then nother ever again. The "Lone Pyscho" is a comment event around here, wether it be a true pyscho or Syko the Crip just out of Folsom for a murder conviction

[Sava700]

Just out of curiosity, what's the crime rate in your area? Just this last weekend, a 14 year old boy was shot in a possible gang related shooting down the street from my cousins house. This same park saw 7 old men gunned down last summer. Random shootings are a daily occurance around here and most times don't even make it to the headlines other then "Police are searching for a suspect in the shooting death of" on the morning news then nother ever again. The "Lone Pyscho" is a comment event around here, wether it be a true pyscho or Syko the Crip just out of Folsom for a murder conviction

I'm not sure what the rate is but I'm not far from Virginia Tech, not far from where a fool decided to kill two cops and wound 2 others just a few weeks ago either. That is irrelevant though since anything could happen anywhere so you need to be prepared for anything.

[Roody]

Looks like common sense is kicking in.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42560159/ns/us_news-life/

[Roody]

I'm not sure what the rate is but I'm not far from Virginia Tech, not far from where a fool decided to kill two cops and wound 2 others just a few weeks ago either. That is irrelevant though since anything could happen anywhere so you need to be prepared for anything.

Maybe we should give guns to pre-schoolers in the event some psycho decides to go into a daycare. That way a person could be prepared for anything.

[Philip]

Maybe we should give guns to pre-schoolers in the event some psycho decides to go into a daycare. That way a person could be prepared for anything.

Trent, maybe just the teacher should carry, lol
I agree with CiscoKid, I don't like the guns on campuses idea either (and I'm generally pro guns).

In fact, here is a recent story from St. Pete (Tierra Verde), just a couple of blocks from a cousin's house - a nice brunette (Cabledude's type) in a nice upscale area shot someone that was trying to rob/rape? her with a gun she got for Christmas: http://www.btls.com/news/stories/couple ... -home.html

[YeOldeStonecat]

We are not talking about a car though and obtaining a drivers license is way too easy to start with

Uhm...in most states getting a permit is even easier than a drivers license! With too many loopholes. And purchasing a gun..even more loopholes and things that don't warn sellers not to sell. Heck look at the past two tragedies....Laughner and that Cho guy should have never even been able to get guns...due to things in their history, but they did.

Now I'm coming from a gun background....I grew up since a little wee one around guns, gun ranges, hunting, pistols, rifles, black powder, automatics, nearly every type, and been through formal training in my law enforcement days. I love 'em!

I've also been to college, lived on a collage campus for years, and visited other colleges..and I know what goes on there. It's freaking drink til you drop, drink til testosterone oozes like a volcano, destroy things, drink, find girls and go through rubbers, drink, go crazy, find girls and go through rubbers, drink, fights and brawls, drink some more, find girls and go through rubbers, it's just...not the place for guns. Thur/Fri/Sat nights campus police are swamped with fights and damage from crazy drunken rampages.

Now I realize Texas has a slightly different culture than most other states, regarding guns in their blood. Growing up as good ol' cowboys driving around with pickups and a rifle in the rear window so guns are a bit more commonplace. But still...a college campus....and again, I'm generally against gun control...and taking away those rights, but I do wish existing laws worked better (more thorough background checks)....and I'm thinking guns on campus ain't a good idea. I'll read American Rifleman and enjoy the "Armed Citizen" column all the time. But the idea of thinking that armed young kids would deter school shootings makes me cringe. Too many of them will think they're Johnny on the spot hero and try moves they've seen on TV and just get themselves killed...along with potentially more bystanders.

[Sava700]

I'm sure not only Texas and Arizona will follow through and get this passed but other states will follow. I along with anyone else have a right to defend yourself any way you see fit. Now I've gone and gotten properly trained on how to fire a hand gun. I'm a excellent shot with it and with my rifles. This looks like a great thing to do and I hope it continues and goes through while also sparking more states to do the same!

[Sava700]

In fact, here is a recent story from St. Pete (Tierra Verde), just a couple of blocks from a cousin's house - a nice brunette (Cabledude's type) in a nice upscale area shot someone that was trying to rob/rape? her with a gun she got for Christmas: http://www.btls.com/news/stories/couple ... -home.html

Prime reason you have the right to defend yourself.. what would have happened has she not had the gun in her purse or on her if she entered a public restroom and someone came in right behind her to attempt the rape? It prob happens every day in high volume area's not just someone's home.

[CiscoKid]

It's been said time and time again, more often then not, you are more likely to be killed with your own gun then by an attackers weapon. If your attacker has a gun, it takes a few seconds for you to draw but if he sees you moving for your hop, it takes just a second to squeez his trigger amd then what? you lay dead and he gets not only your wallet but also your gun?

[Easto]

I would go to another school before I went to one that allowed guns. I mean... if you were the parent of a child thinking of going to a school that allowed this what would you do?

[YeOldeStonecat]

I would go to another school before I went to one that allowed guns. I mean... if you were the parent of a child thinking of going to a school that allowed this what would you do?

The litmus test will be a drop in enrollment or not. I imagine a lot of parents will think along the same lines as you, I know I would. I'm all for self defense and gun rights...but not in the hands of kids, and especially not on a college campus and dorms....where immature inexperience kids are cutting way over the top loose on booze and what not.

[Philip]

It's been said time and time again, more often then not, you are more likely to be killed with your own gun then by an attackers weapon. If your attacker has a gun, it takes a few seconds for you to draw but if he sees you moving for your hop, it takes just a second to squeez his trigger amd then what? you lay dead and he gets not only your wallet but also your gun?

It is more of a speculation/opinion than a fact, since it does not take into account deterrence of crime because of people's right to bear arms.

For example:
In Washington D.C. in the first year after the concealed weapons ban was lifted violent crime dropped 19%. During the years in which the D.C. handgun ban and trigger lock law was in effect, the Washington, D.C. murder rate averaged 73% higher than it was at the outset of the law, while the U.S. murder rate averaged 11% lower.... etc.
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

I still agree with you and YScat that it is ridiculous for students on campus to carry, and I would think twice before sending my kids there.

[Sava700]

It's been said time and time again, more often then not, you are more likely to be killed with your own gun then by an attackers weapon. If your attacker has a gun, it takes a few seconds for you to draw but if he sees you moving for your hop, it takes just a second to squeez his trigger amd then what? you lay dead and he gets not only your wallet but also your gun?

Ya know what.. what happens if your wearing and you have someone break into a building and start shooting room to room while you and your classmates are hiding behind desks? You have the ability to draw and fire at the doorway or in that general direction of the attacker to either take em down or scare them off cause I would imagin they weren't expecting to be fired back upon so quickly considering many will kill what they want till police arrive. Your wearing could not only save your life but the lives of many others - you just don't know but you hope your at least prepared by being properly trained and packing for your protection at the very least.

Back up to the start of all that... your not packing and you and your classmates are now hiding behind desks with the only defense from a semi auto handgun/rifle (choice of many psycho's here lately) is books and writing tools you have near by and it's unlikely anyone is trained like Chuck Norris to take out a attacker with a ink pen.... you are now faced looking on with your classmates at the barrel of a gun a few seconds before a bullet is now lodged in your head.

Naw... I want to be able to defend myself, the hell with that 2nd option!!

[Roody]

With all due respect Sava why should Cisco even bother answering your question? Everytime a subject comes up where you leave yourself open for questions you bow out so why would he want to return the favor? Truth is quite often you start up interesting topics, but you refuse to answer questions asked of you.

[YeOldeStonecat]

Ya know what.. what happens if your wearing and you have someone break into a building and start shooting room to room while you and your classmates are hiding behind desks? You have the ability to draw and fire at the doorway or in that general direction of the attacker to either take em down or scare them off cause I would imagin they weren't expecting to be fired back upon so quickly considering many will kill what they want till police arrive. Your wearing could not only save your life but the lives of many others - you just don't know but you hope your at least prepared by being properly trained and packing for your protection at the very least.

Back up to the start of all that... your not packing and you and your classmates are now hiding behind desks with the only defense from a semi auto handgun/rifle (choice of many psycho's here lately) is books and writing tools you have near by and it's unlikely anyone is trained like Chuck Norris to take out a attacker with a ink pen.... you are now faced looking on with your classmates at the barrel of a gun a few seconds before a bullet is now lodged in your head.

Naw... I want to be able to defend myself, the hell with that 2nd option!!

Short for "you are" is "you're"....not "your". "You're wearing"....or "you're not packing". "Your" is possessive....like "Your sneakers are over there."

Big thing I'd pray never happens at a school...."You (referring to a kid that is packing) have the ability to draw and fire at the doorway or in that general direction of the attacker"
"Fire in the general direction?" At..no...IN a school? Where's there's usually people 360 degrees around you? And cement/cinder block hallways and steel frame doors to redirect bullets around like a bouncing ball box of ricochets? WOW!!! WOW!!!

I know you're going to try to say "trained"...like the kids got trained for their permit. Sorry...that's not going to happen. We're talking KIDS here....some of them might learn enough to learn how to properly behave in a gun range...but not in a hot live situation under duress. You need experience and adult frame of mine for that, to be able to maintain clarity and purpose, something that comes with age.

[Philip]

"frame of mind" not "frame of mine" (sry, couldn't resist )

[Sava700]

Short for "you are" is "you're"....not "your". "You're wearing"....or "you're not packing". "Your" is possessive....like "Your sneakers are over there."

Big thing I'd pray never happens at a school...."You (referring to a kid that is packing) have the ability to draw and fire at the doorway or in that general direction of the attacker"
"Fire in the general direction?" At..no...IN a school? Where's there's usually people 360 degrees around you? And cement/cinder block hallways and steel frame doors to redirect bullets around like a bouncing ball box of ricochets? WOW!!! WOW!!!

I know you're going to try to say "trained"...like the kids got trained for their permit. Sorry...that's not going to happen. We're talking KIDS here....some of them might learn enough to learn how to properly behave in a gun range...but not in a hot live situation under duress. You need experience and adult frame of mine for that, to be able to maintain clarity and purpose, something that comes with age.

yeah yeah I know I type sometimes without thinking of how the word should be typed out

As for KIDS.. well you still can't get a permit till "you're" 21 so that's well over the 18years old mark of becoming an adult. When I say training I mean live firing and consulting by professionals on how to react under duress as you say.

I stand behind my last post though that I would rather not look up seconds before my life is ending with only a few books and pens to protect me, instead I would want to be armed and ready to defend myself..we all have that right!

[David]

For some, that is college. However, in the palette of personality archetypes, the brooding outsider, the converted gang banger or the simple just add alcohol idiot, are not uncommon. I agree with pretty much all else.

[Sava700]

HELL YEAH!!! Now lets get this moved to other states!! I'm all for it here in Virginia!!

AUSTIN, Texas - Republicans in the Texas Senate on Monday approved allowing concealed handgun license holders to carry weapons into public college buildings and classrooms, moving forward on a measure that had stalled until supporters tacked it on to a universities spending bill.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/ ... bsCarousel