Video: Obama argues his tax plan with a small plumbing business owner in Ohio

[jjrs]

[YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vFC9jv9jfoA&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vFC9jv9jfoA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

I don't know if he got the guy's vote, and its pretty typical democrat stuff that he's saying, but he does a pretty good job arguing his position.

This is why I like this guy and think he could be president. In his speeches he seems to be using a teleprompter and its staged, but here he sounds like a normal person, and talks to the guy and not at him. He says what he believes and sticks it even if others don't agree, but at the same time seems to get that some other people see it a different way, and stays respectful to them.

[Sava700]

Looked like he enjoyed interrupting that guy to me...but that plumber has a point..the more he makes the more he's taxed under his plan and even Obama said it several times thats how it works to his face. So your punished for doing better?

[jjrs]

the more he makes the more he's taxed under his plan and even Obama said it several times thats how it works to his face.

That's what I like about him, he didn't just tell him what he wanted to hear or dodge it like most politicians do. At least he's honest about it and you know what you're getting. He's a democrat, and he doesn't try to weasel out of it. I respect republicans that can be straight too.

Tax is tax...But 3% more for any extra income over 250k (same as it was in the 90's), and NO capital gains taxes for small businesses, and a 50% tax cut for health care costs...could be worse.

[tarpoon75]

Taxes are going up, period.

That's the only way to get us out of the mess we are in.

[YARDofSTUF]

Taxes are going up, period.

That's the only way to get us out of the mess we are in.

McCain still thinks hes gonna cut them.

[Sava700]

That's what I like about him, he didn't just tell him what he wanted to hear or dodge it like most politicians do. At least he's honest about it and you know what you're getting. He's a democrat, and he doesn't try to weasel out of it. I respect republicans that can be straight too.

Tax is tax...But 3% more for any extra income over 250k (same as it was in the 90's), and NO capital gains taxes for small businesses, and a 50% tax cut for health care costs...could be worse.

How about being honest and not screwing the small business owner like this guy by telling him that no matter what he does he's going to get nailed for working harder. Or how about not interrupt the guy when he's talking since he's the one who will put you into the position.

[YARDofSTUF]

How about being honest and not screwing the small business owner like this guy by telling him that no matter what he does he's going to get nailed for working harder. Or how about not interrupt the guy when he's talking since he's the one who will put you into the position.

If he works harder and is taxed more he still makes more than if he didn't work that hard.

[downhill]

How about being honest and not screwing the small business owner like this guy by telling him that no matter what he does he's going to get nailed for working harder. Or how about not interrupt the guy when he's talking since he's the one who will put you into the position.

*sigh*.... Perspective I guess.

Most politicians who are good at debate, learn early to try and get a answer in before they get bombard with three more questions.


Have you watched the O'Lielly interviews with Obama?

[Sava700]

If he works harder and is taxed more he still makes more than if he didn't work that hard.

I don't disagree with that.. the issue is with paying more taxes of a higher percentage when he's working hard vs just a normal increase per the amount made that everyone has... same goes with overtime when a employee works harder and longer for overtime they get taxed more cause it throws them into a higher tax bracket..I've never agreed with that.

[YeOldeStonecat]

If he works harder and is taxed more he still makes more than if he didn't work that hard.

But ones gets tired of "the law of diminishing returns".

When I was in my 20's....I used to crave working overtime. Doing 60, 70, 80, heck I even logged in over 100 hours on storm hurricane watch one winter...but eventually, because your pay gets kicked a few notches up the tax braket...you realize that the hours logged past certain points get you squat for pay. You end up working for like...3 dollars an hour after a certain point.

Eventually I learned the happy medium, back then, at my pay scale, and the tax braket, I learned to stop doing overtime at 67 hours...any past that was for pocket change.

[Joint Chiefs of Staff]

But ones gets tired of "the law of diminishing returns".

When I was in my 20's....I used to crave working overtime. Doing 60, 70, 80, heck I even logged in over 100 hours on storm hurricane watch one winter...but eventually, because your pay gets kicked a few notches up the tax bracket...you realize that the hours logged past certain points get you squat for pay. You end up working for like...3 dollars an hour after a certain point.

Eventually I learned the happy medium, back then, at my pay scale, and the tax braket, I learned to stop doing overtime at 67 hours...any past that was for pocket change.

Exactly

Back in '93 when I got out of the Navy and worked at an international Pharmaceutical company back in Baltimore. My cut off (tax bracket) for OT was 14/wk. Then the company introduced mandatory OT for weekends to meet med manufacturing deadlines. Working for OT used to be kick ass, now not so much.

[YARDofSTUF]

I don't disagree with that.. the issue is with paying more taxes of a higher percentage when he's working hard vs just a normal increase per the amount made that everyone has... same goes with overtime when a employee works harder and longer for overtime they get taxed more cause it throws them into a higher tax bracket..I've never agreed with that.

I've never liked it, but its not like we can do one flat rate that leaves the lower earning people with 8-10k a year after taxes.

[YeOldeStonecat]

I disagree with his statement that "95% of small businesses are under $250k/year" though.

For people playing income tax....having a ceiling of 250k per household...I'm OK with that.

But for small businesses..his claim that 95% of them out there don't pull in 250k...I call phooey!

[koldchillah]

If my business brings in $275K/yr, thats approximately an $8000/yr tax increase under Obama's plan. Sure, that sucks, but it's not going to discourage me from working any harder. At some point along the way I'm going to realize that I am still better off than I was when I made $150K, or even $230K. If my hard work pushes my company into a higher bracket and I see a little more of my money going back into the system, I will feel good knowing that my success has afforded me the honor of helping those that are working just as hard to follow the same dream that I had.

I have a great distaste for the attitude that if someone makes less money than someone else, then they must not be working hard enough, or that they must not be doing something right. That mindset is disturbing to me.

If my business ever brings in over $250K/yr I don't think I have too much of a problem settling for the Lexus SUV versus the Porsche Cayenne.

What I do like, however, is that as Obama explained, under his plan I have a better chance of making it to that $250K mark even quicker than I do right now and thats encouraging IMO to a vast majority of business owners, regardless of whether it's 95% of them or 89% of them, or hell, even 60% of them. Anything done to benefit the population should be considered if it can help even 51% of Americans.

When I hear of people making over $250K a year and bitching about having to pay a higher tax rate, they really don't get any sympathy from me. Maybe someday I will reach that same status and surround myself with that similar mindset, but I hope to God, if he's up there, that I don't buy into that philosophy that IMHO wreaks of sub-conscious greed no matter how much dignity and honor I still feel that I've retained.

[YeOldeStonecat]

When I hear of people making over $250K a year and bitching about having to pay a higher tax rate, they really don't get any sympathy from me.

The 250k/year for individuals, or even households, I don't have a problem with.

Even for a small business, the 250k/year....well, I don't have a BIG problem with it, as something has to be done to level things out a bit. I think it should be set a little higher..but it's no show stopper for me.

What I disagree with, was his statement that 95% of small businesses are under that 250k/year mark. I think he said that with typical slant of trying to win the people over. When he says 95% of the average Americans are under that 250k/year mark..that's probably not too too far from the truth, and the higher percentage of average americans will interpret that as them getting a tax cut...and be all "Yay" about it.

But for a small business...a business hitting 250k/year doesn't mean the owner is taking home a fat paycheck.

[Izzo]

If my business brings in $275K/yr, thats approximately an $8000/yr tax increase under Obama's plan. Sure, that sucks, but it's not going to discourage me from working any harder. At some point along the way I'm going to realize that I am still better off than I was when I made $150K, or even $230K. If my hard work pushes my company into a higher bracket and I see a little more of my money going back into the system, I will feel good knowing that my success has afforded me the honor of helping those that are working just as hard to follow the same dream that I had.

I have a great distaste for the attitude that if someone makes less money than someone else, then they must not be working hard enough, or that they must not be doing something right. That mindset is disturbing to me.

If my business ever brings in over $250K/yr I don't think I have too much of a problem settling for the Lexus SUV versus the Porsche Cayenne.

What I do like, however, is that as Obama explained, under his plan I have a better chance of making it to that $250K mark even quicker than I do right now and thats encouraging IMO to a vast majority of business owners, regardless of whether it's 95% of them or 89% of them, or hell, even 60% of them. Anything done to benefit the population should be considered if it can help even 51% of Americans.

When I hear of people making over $250K a year and bitching about having to pay a higher tax rate, they really don't get any sympathy from me. Maybe someday I will reach that same status and surround myself with that similar mindset, but I hope to God, if he's up there, that I don't buy into that philosophy that IMHO wreaks of sub-conscious greed no matter how much dignity and honor I still feel that I've retained.

Well said.....and bravo to you, sir.

[koldchillah]

But for a small business...a business hitting 250k/year doesn't mean the owner is taking home a fat paycheck.

Why not? Isn't that $250K referring to profits AFTER a businesses expenses are tallied? If you are a company owner and you are collecting a salary from the business, then you are falling under payroll which is an expense that sits on the expense side of your companies profit/loss statement and plays against your gross profits at the end of the year. So if you make $70K in salary and your company STILL grosses over $250K/yr after all employees are paid, guess who gets that extra money? The owners/shareholders, which in a lot of cases for small businesses will also be the same employees that take in income as part of the businesses expenses.

So really, it depends on whether that $250K is referring to gross profits or just plain revenue. If we're talking about simple revenues, than I'm more inclined to agree with you wholeheartedly.

C-corps versus S-corps also makes a big difference since S-corps don't pay corporate income taxes, but rather the shareholders (typically fewer in an S-corp) pay their share of the companies profits on their personal income taxes based on the profit & loss statements at years end.

My company is an S-corp. We don't pay corporate income taxes so I'm not 100% sure on how the tax scenarios will play out, but I think it's pretty straight forward for the C-corps out there.

As for the 95% thing. meh.. It's an election and they all love to throw those figures around and in one context or another he might be dead on. Like I said, I'd still favor it, even if only 51% of small businesses make less than $250K/yr. A majority is a majority IMO, and thats what democracy is all about.

At the end of the day, unlike a lot of people out there, I'm actually excited about this election. I happen to like both candidates in terms of character. I think both candidates are the most honorable and trustworthy candidates I've seen in my lifetime. I just happen to disagree with a lot of McCain's policies and only a few of Obama's, therefore I'm more inclined to choose the candidate that is saying more of the right things, rather than choosing the candidate who barely says any of the right things. Regardless though, I strongly beleive that our country would be better off with a chimpanzee sittin' in the Oval office than what we've had for the past 8 years.

[jjrs]

It seems like an awfully big stink to raise over a measly 3% tax increase...after you just cleared a quarter mil at a lower rate than McCain would give you.

So basically, after 250, you pay an extra 30 bucks for every extra 1000 you make. Big frickin' deal. Realistically how is that worth getting upset over?

That is not going to hurt anybody at all. Its like people just want to argue it out of principal. If its a little more, even a teeny weeny little bit more, then its totally out of the question. Forget that you just made a quarter million dollars, even a measly 30 bucks extra from then on is out of the question. People paid that rate in the 90's and the economy did just fine.

[Izzo]

It seems like an awfully big stink to raise over a measly 3% tax increase...after you just cleared a quarter mil at a lower rate than McCain would give you.

So basically, after 250, you pay an extra 30 bucks for every extra 1000 you make. Big frickin' deal. Realistically how is that worth getting upset over?

That is not going to hurt anybody at all. Its like people just want to argue it out of principal. If its a little more, even a teeny weeny little bit more, then its totally out of the question. Forget that you just made a quarter million dollars, even a measly 30 bucks extra from then on is out of the question. People paid that rate in the 90's and the economy did just fine.

You underestimate the power of greed.

[jjrs]

You underestimate the power of greed.

I guess so. 10% I'd understand and 20 hell yeah, but this is ridiculous. I'm happy with what I earn, but I'd like to think if I had just cleared a quarter million dollars, I'd have more important things to worry about than a 3% tax increase.

[Ken]

If my business brings in $275K/yr, thats approximately an $8000/yr tax increase under Obama's plan. Sure, that sucks, but it's not going to discourage me from working any harder. At some point along the way I'm going to realize that I am still better off than I was when I made $150K, or even $230K. If my hard work pushes my company into a higher bracket and I see a little more of my money going back into the system, I will feel good knowing that my success has afforded me the honor of helping those that are working just as hard to follow the same dream that I had.

I have a great distaste for the attitude that if someone makes less money than someone else, then they must not be working hard enough, or that they must not be doing something right. That mindset is disturbing to me.

If my business ever brings in over $250K/yr I don't think I have too much of a problem settling for the Lexus SUV versus the Porsche Cayenne.

What I do like, however, is that as Obama explained, under his plan I have a better chance of making it to that $250K mark even quicker than I do right now and thats encouraging IMO to a vast majority of business owners, regardless of whether it's 95% of them or 89% of them, or hell, even 60% of them. Anything done to benefit the population should be considered if it can help even 51% of Americans.

When I hear of people making over $250K a year and bitching about having to pay a higher tax rate, they really don't get any sympathy from me. Maybe someday I will reach that same status and surround myself with that similar mindset, but I hope to God, if he's up there, that I don't buy into that philosophy that IMHO wreaks of sub-conscious greed no matter how much dignity and honor I still feel that I've retained.

Matt, if a "business" only brings in $275 K a year, it probably won't be in business very long...

That would mean that it had basically no sales, is strictly service and has no employees, unless it is a sweat shop... That type of business, you bust your butt for almost nothing by the time expenses and taxes are removed, not to mention that you are doing everything yourself...

$275 K is quite different for a person and a business...

Edit- unless you were meaning $275 K "profit"... (Your first post said "If my business brings in $275K/yr"...) Brings in would be gross income...


2nd Edit- I just listened to the video, $250,000 "revenue" is NOT profit, it is gross or overall income... He is comparing steaks to grapes and contradicting himself. The guy working 15 years and making a paycheck does not equate to a business revenue... Pay attention to what he is saying and not think that you understand, listen to the spin. That or Obama is confused with his own words, your spin on which ever...

The point is Rep & Demos have a monopoly of sorts on politics. Both are equal on lies and deception... No politician is honest. It is the life they chose and reality are nothing more that a speaker, a patronizer...

[koldchillah]

Matt, if a "business" only brings in $275 K a year, it probably won't be in business very long...

That would mean that it had basically no sales, is strictly service and has no employees, unless it is a sweat shop... That type of business, you bust your butt for almost nothing by the time expenses and taxes are removed, not to mention that you are doing everything yourself...

$275 K is quite different for a person and a business...

Edit- unless you were meaning $275 K "profit"... (Your first post said "If my business brings in $275K/yr"...) Brings in would be gross income...

According to Obama's tax plan, he is referring to 250K as NET profit.. NOT revenue.. Sorry if I mis-worded that in my first post.

Even so, my business only brought in $110K in revenue in it's first year and yet we still plan to be around for years to come. After paying our expenses, including payroll to our pockets, the business only netted $6K. We have a loooong way to go to get to $250K. I'll be doing quite well if we get there.

[Ken]

According to Obama's tax plan, he is referring to 250K as NET profit.. NOT revenue.. Sorry if I mis-worded that in my first post.

Even so, my business only brought in $110K in revenue in it's first year and yet we still plan to be around for years to come. After paying our expenses, including payroll to our pockets, the business only netted $6K. We have a loooong way to go to get to $250K. I'll be doing quite well if we get there.

Nope, sorry, go back and listen to his first sentence... "If your REVENUE is above $250..." As I said in my above post, either he is confused himself or he is decieving, blowing a smoke screen to confuse the guy, as business revenue and person income is 2 totally different animals... They couldn't be more different...

And, with all do respect, I seem to recall a post of yours saying that if business didn't get better, you were going to close it...

[koldchillah]

Nope, sorry, go back and listen to his first sentence... "If your REVENUE is above $250..."

I'm pretty sure he meant net profits as is stated on his website:

"As a small business owner who claims small business income on your individual tax return (whether through a sole proprietorship, partnership, or S-corp) you pay individual income taxes only on your net income — or profit — and not on your firm’s gross revenue. Accordingly, when Obama says that he would roll back the Bush tax cuts for all couples earning more than $250,000 a year, these income figures include only net income that a small business owner takes home. Because net income is usually far lower than gross revenue, even if your revenue is above $250,000 you are still likely to get a tax cut under Obama’s tax plan. If you are a small business owner using the tax calculator, you should select your income level based on the net income you claim — your revenues minus your costs — to see how you would fare under each candidate. "

Seriously, it wouldn't make sense to refer to revenue. I give him the benefit of the doubt and would say he mis-spoke, as it would not make any sense otherwise and his plan clearly outlines the latter.

[Ken]

I'm pretty sure he meant net profits as is stated on his website:

"As a small business owner who claims small business income on your individual tax return (whether through a sole proprietorship, partnership, or S-corp) you pay individual income taxes only on your net income — or profit — and not on your firm’s gross revenue. Accordingly, when Obama says that he would roll back the Bush tax cuts for all couples earning more than $250,000 a year, these income figures include only net income that a small business owner takes home. Because net income is usually far lower than gross revenue, even if your revenue is above $250,000 you are still likely to get a tax cut under Obama’s tax plan. If you are a small business owner using the tax calculator, you should select your income level based on the net income you claim — your revenues minus your costs — to see how you would fare under each candidate. "

Did you go back and re listen to the video?... I haven't read his site and he seems to be trying to explain it in the video, but again, either he, himself is confused with the terms or he is blowing smoke... (Also, please read my edits)

[koldchillah]

Did you go back and re listen to the video?... I haven't read his site and he seems to be trying to explain it in the video, but again, either he, himself is confused with the terms or he is blowing smoke... (Also, please read my edits)

Yep.. I re-listened to it.. You're right, he said revenue; however, I believe it was a minor slip. Even the guy didn't seem to catch it. Seriously.. think about it.. If it wasn't a slip then his plan would have been deflated loooong ago as 95% of small businesses would SEE a tax increase, and I simply don't buy into the notion that those are his intentions. Do you? seriously? Hell, I made a similar slip in my first post, but do you still beleive thats what I meant?

[koldchillah]

And, with all do respect, I seem to recall a post of yours saying that if business didn't get better, you were going to close it...

It's definitely dried me up.. I have no more savings accounts. I'm paycheck to paycheck... one 2wk pay period might be a few hundred dollars, the next almost a couple thousand.. It's up and down and the downs are tough. I'm resilient though and I've surrounded myself with a good support group that believe in what we've started and can see how far we've come. In the end I have to stay positive. On the upside, we've never lost a client due to our actions or inactions. We are growing, just slowly. In time, as long as I can continue to squeak by each month. I think the ends will justify the means and we will be just fine. Having said that, when it's slow, yeah, I'll admit, I begin to doubt myself. I try to keep that to a minimum though, as it's counter-productive to think like that all the time.

[Ken]

Yep.. I re-listened to it.. You're right, he said revenue; however, I believe it was a minor slip. Even the guy didn't seem to catch it. Seriously.. think about it.. If it wasn't a slip then his plan would have been deflated loooong ago as 95% of small businesses would SEE a tax increase, and I simply don't buy into the notion that those are his intentions. Do you? seriously? Hell, I made a similar slip in my first post, but do you still beleive thats what I meant?

Kold, that is what happens when one is blowing a smoke screen, you lose track of what he is saying and he gently guides you to his own agenda... Funny how he used the same revenue term at the end when talking about capital gains... Think he just made another "mistake" with his words? Or is that what they were planing on you to think...

Go back and listen to each of the "well rehearsed" words and how he mixes 2 totally different items, business revenue and personal income...intentionally... The guy didn't catch it because...it was staged...as they all are...

I am going to post in the Greenspan thread later today or tomorrow and I am going to outline some very important parts that were from day 1 meant to deceive the people...
Both parties deceive, neither is honest... You are becoming a businessman, it is important to see what they say and what the true effects will be, even if everyone acts surprised when it happens...

[koldchillah]

Kold, that is what happens when one is blowing a smoke screen, you lose track of what he is saying and he gently guides you to his own agenda... Funny how he used the same revenue term at the end when talking about capital gains... Think he just made another "mistake" with his words? Or is that what they were planing on you to think...

Go back and listen to each of the "well rehearsed" words and how he mixes 2 totally different items, business revenue and personal income...intentionally... The guy didn't catch it because...it was staged...as they all are...

I am going to post in the Greenspan thread later today or tomorrow and I am going to outline some very important parts that were from day 1 meant to deceive the people...
Both parties deceive, neither is honest... You are becoming a businessman, it is important to see what they say and what the true effects will be, even if everyone acts surprised when it happens...

I still don't buy the smoke and mirrors bit, staged or not staged. It still appears to be a slip up of words, which indicates that it was NOT well rehearsed, but rather an on the spot slip up.

If I was to follow your reasoning then we shouldn't bother with a right to vote and anarchy would be our best solution, particularly since people elected by the people can't be trusted and all, right? If not anarchy, what are your suggestions as to how we should run gov't? Let those be in power that seek out to belittle gov't and make it out to be the very evil that holds us back? Let corporations dictate your rights and freedoms rather than a gov't by the people for the people? That seems to be our choice these days afterall.. Let the large corporations have the power, or let the politicians have the power. In the grand scheme of things, who is more likely to have your interests at heart? I value your wisdom and I'm all ears to your alternative suggestions my friend.

[Ken]

I still don't buy the smoke and mirrors bit, staged or not staged. It still appears to be a slip up of words, which indicates that it was NOT well rehearsed, but rather an on the spot slip up.

If I was to follow your reasoning then we shouldn't bother with a right to vote and anarchy would be our best solution, particularly since people elected by the people can't be trusted and all, right? If not anarchy, what are your suggestions as to how we should run gov't? Let those be in power that seek out to belittle gov't and make it out to be the very evil that holds us back? Let corporations dictate your rights and freedoms rather than a gov't by the people for the people? That seems to be our choice these days afterall.. Let the large corporations have the power, or let the politicians have the power. In the grand scheme of things, who is more likely to have your interests at heart? I value your wisdom and I'm all ears to your alternative suggestions my friend.

What you say is exactly what they anticipated. You choose to believe what you want to hear and think...

Kold, if you really believe any politician, from either party, you have forgotten what politics are. According to many, we are on the verge of martial law... Wait until you read my other post and see if it gives you a better understanding of what I'm trying to explain. How something exactly like this, where you are made to believe one thing, that it is going to be great for Joe public, will have a very negative effect, in reality, for years to come... After that post, if you want me to explain in detail how this will work, I will... It is same principle, good for any topic, any party...

I am going to leave this thread now and work on the other because I am sure that it will give you a different way of looking at things when you have a different way of truly seeing the facts and real potential...

[jjrs]

Go back and listen to each of the "well rehearsed" words and how he mixes 2 totally different items, business revenue and personal income...intentionally...

First of all, no-one has ever payed income tax on revenue before expenses. That's why its all called a tax write off. You pay taxes on your income, which is the money you actually make from the business.

But don't take my word for it- see what factcheck.org has to say about it (and McCain uses factcheck.org himself in some of his own commercials)

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008 ... _bunk.html

Even the McCain camp isn't trying to claim that Obama is trying to do something as crazy as tax revenue before expenses-

As for actual income tax rates, which is what McCain keeps talking about, [McCain spokesman] Rogers says "if they make over $250,000 and file as individuals ... their taxes go up." But this leaves out all but a very small fraction of those McCain counts as small-business owners. Rogers also says taxes will go up if small-business owners "have capital gains or dividends," but Obama's proposal would not increase rates on capital gains or dividends for couples making under $250,000, or singles making under about $200,000, regardless of whether they are classified as small-business owners or not.

[koldchillah]

What you say is exactly what they anticipated. You choose to believe what you want to hear and think...

Kold, if you really believe any politician, from either party, you have forgotten what politics are. According to many, we are on the verge of martial law... Wait until you read my other post and see if it gives you a better understanding of what I'm trying to explain. How something exactly like this, where you are made to believe one thing, that it is going to be great for Joe public, will have a very negative effect, in reality, for years to come... After that post, if you want me to explain in detail how this will work, I will... It is same principle, good for any topic, any party...

I am going to leave this thread now and work on the other because I am sure that it will give you a different way of looking at things when you have a different way of truly seeing the facts and real potential...

I can't wait to read it. I agree with you that people choose want they want to hear and think.. You yourself are no exception to that rule. I don't believe every politician.. you always have to take them with a grain of salt.. having said that, are you more inclined to listen to the ones that tell you want you want to hear, or the exact opposite and support the one that tells you everything you don't want to hear and/or disagree with entirely?
Their words and actions are all we have to go on.

You ignored the second half of my post. What are your alternative suggestions to our current disastrous political process? I can't wait to hear them.

[Leatherneck]

Someone's got to pay.

[jjrs]

Obama is not Jesus. He's not some savior here to fix everything wrong in the world and solve everyone's personal problems. He's a democrat politician, and he has positions pretty typical of his type.

But you know what? After a year and a half of watching him speak and studying his policies, I've decided he's not all that bad of a democrat politician. I'd rather see him get it than Kerry, or Edwards, or Hillary at this point. There's even a good chance by now he'll be better than Bill Clinton was. And as mediocre as he seemed at the time, after the past 8 years Clinton looks pretty good right now.

So the flipside of him not being Jesus? He's not Satan, either. All this nonsense about how he's secretly and Arab, or Malcolm X in disguise, all this talk about how he's an empty-suit manchurian candidate who memorizes every last thing he says, all this talk about how he'll tax the economy to (worse than now??) ruin...it's nonsense. He's a democrat, and if you don't like democrats you'll reflexively not like this one, either. That's how some partisans are.

But he's just not that bloody different, and he's just not that bloody bad. If you earn more than 250k, you'll get dinged an extra 3% on your income tax, and life will go on. And from the looks of all the polls, people are just going to have to get used to it-

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls ... vs_mccain/
http://pollster.com/

Last debate starts in 2 and a half hours and counting...

[triniwasp]

Someone's got to pay.

I don't like paying taxes anymore than anyone else but... the reality is if one thinks they can go elsewhere in the world and work less, be less secure, pay less taxes, and maintain their standard of living then they should; but I don't think anyone will be leaving anytime soon.

[JC]

??? Eliminate capital gains tax. I never knew companies paid capital gains.
*shrug*

[jjrs]

Anyone watching this debate? They're both spending half their time talking to Joe the plumber instead of each other. Tomorrow this guy is gonna be famous and interviewed by everyone.

[Izzo]

Anyone watching this debate? They're both spending half their time talking to Joe the plumber instead of each other. Tomorrow this guy is gonna be famous and interviewed by everyone.

It's yummy TV.

[jjrs]

McCain's doing pretty good compared to the last two debates. But Obama's a rock. He must be on valium or something. Nothing ever seems to rile him up.

[jjrs]

At this point its stopped being a senator obama vs senator mccain debate and turned into a liberal ideas vs. conservative ideas debate. But sadly for the republicans, after the last 8 years that debate leans in the favor of liberals.