downhill wrote:I would say that 250 squid a year, in this day and age, would really be at the top of the middle class scale.
The tax models are antiquidated as evidenced by the ATM tax. The relief that congress is giving for it, doens't reach far enough nor does it even effect those whos income, is mostly derived from capitol gains.
Amro my friend. In the long run, universal health care will end up costing you less than the current model for most Americans. That's just my opinion.
1. Again, it depends on where you live.
2. YES.
3. We are not Europe. While I believe it can work, our system of delivery might be too venal and the country to expansive to permit it. We can only hope.
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
My worry about fed funded healthcare is that it might take the montary incentive out of becoming a doctor..gotta pay those student loans back somehow. While I agree that universal healthcare would be a great benefit to all those in need I wonder if it would "work" in our system.
Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it. - JP II
tao_jones wrote:My worry about fed funded healthcare is that it might take the montary incentive out of becoming a doctor..gotta pay those student loans back somehow. While I agree that universal healthcare would be a great benefit to all those in need I wonder if it would "work" in our system.
I thought about becoming a doctor when I was young. I would have specialized in proctology but in the end (pun intended) at that time, I didn't think I'd have enough business.
I just never contemplated the rise of Fox news and Clearchannel radio.
tao_jones wrote:My worry about fed funded healthcare is that it might take the montary incentive out of becoming a doctor..gotta pay those student loans back somehow. While I agree that universal healthcare would be a great benefit to all those in need I wonder if it would "work" in our system.
I can speak first hand on said issue. Although shackled with a 70K burden after graduation, my numbers pale to the 250K debt being shouldered by my young associate.
The private system of health insurance could work if the profit incentive were to be removed. The biggest problem is deciding what is fair in terms of renumeration.
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
downhill wrote:I would say that 250 squid a year, in this day and age, would really be at the top of the middle class scale.
The tax models are antiquidated as evidenced by the ATM tax. The relief that congress is giving for it, doens't reach far enough nor does it even effect those whos income, is mostly derived from capitol gains.
Amro my friend. In the long run, universal health care will end up costing you less than the current model for most Americans. That's just my opinion.
[Edit, I misunderstood what you meant here but leaving the text b/c it's still useful to explain another point] Hey, $250 a year isn't so bad. Now. However, in 5 or 10 years they'll make it a 3% tax, and it'll go up from there. I'm not arguing for or against socialized health care. I'm arguing against giving the federal government yet another avenue to raise taxes in the long term because they can't seem to manage the money they take in now so why should I trust them to manage it in the future?
Listen, they already take (I believe) 7% for social security and people paying into it now and I will not see it later. They take 25% of my income in federal taxes -- that's money I need for things too -- I know we need roads, etc.. That's not your debt, why should you pay for it? Isn't that the same thing?
We already waste BILLIONS of dollars on BS -- why not redirect that money to things like a basic health care plan that you're arguing for, research in sciences and the like, or improving schools by making them more difficult so our kids don't graduate from high school acting like rocks relative to the rest of the world?
You see where I'm coming from right? Why is it that our government can spend more money than it takes in but we can't? The mismanagement of the government (by both sides of the isle) is putting all of us, our kids and theirs in debt to other countries.
Tell me another thing, if I work my ass off the rest of my life and some day make $150k a year...they take half or some equally ridiculous amount at the end of the day and someone making 90k gets to keep..oh I don't know, 70k...then I'll have worked all of my life to make an extra 5k a year? What's to keep American entrepreneurialism and innovation alive? What makes someone want to go to school for 8 or 10 years, plus some sort of residency to become a doctor or a professor? Their burning desire to help people? Get real. We all want to help people -- that's nothing novel, but people want to be (and in my opinion, should be) rewarded for their hard work, not punished for it.
Again, I'm not arguing against socialized health care, just the fact that people think taking more money is the answer to every problem we face without realizing that the smartest people will just move someplace else or worse have their will to be the best crushed and a great mind will be wasted.
For the record, I support insuring children because they don't have a way to bear the responsibility on their own. How do we fund it? That's probably another long post.
David wrote:I can speak first hand on said issue. Although shackled with a 70K burden after graduation, my numbers pale to the 250K debt being shouldered by my young associate.
The private system of health insurance could work if the profit incentive were to be removed. The biggest problem is deciding what is fair in terms of renumeration.
250K? That's a very nice house. David, what does an average doctor make, starting out (I know it varies based on speciality, but generally)?
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
So 28% off the top for federal taxes, get a house, a vehicle and you have a very hard time paying back your 250k of loans. It'd be hard to get a house with that much debt to begin with. Holy cow.
David wrote:I can speak first hand on said issue. Although shackled with a 70K burden after graduation, my numbers pale to the 250K debt being shouldered by my young associate.
The private system of health insurance could work if the profit incentive were to be removed. The biggest problem is deciding what is fair in terms of renumeration.
IMO... it would take a total 180 in Govt spending. They would need to move the money spent on $100 screwdrivers and toliet seats over to something that would cause genuine benefit to the masses.
Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it. - JP II
Amro wrote:So 28% off the top for federal taxes, get a house, a vehicle and you have a very hard time paying back your 250k of loans. It'd be hard to get a house with that much debt to begin with. Holy cow.
Try it in NJ with 10K+ property tax on modest homes. AMT kills folks in this state.
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
David wrote:Try it in NJ with 10K+ property tax on modest homes. AMT kills folks in this state.
And we wonder why we're dropping in the world when it comes to innovation and the general intelligence of our populous. We're being taxed to death. The US Federal Govt. needs to spend its money more wisely and give us a break so we can compete. I don't even understand how it makes sense to tax something someone worked to buy, when the money it was purchased with was already taxed..you want to talk about greed -- there's the greed -- double dipping on consumers.
Not picking on anyone or directing this at anyone, just fuel for thought as we all "choose" a point of view and run with it... But we must first look at ALL of the facts and variables before we can make an educated decision and not screw ourselves...again...
Not all countries are the same, different people, type of people, different values, culture, rules, work ethics, standard of wages, standard of living, level of white collar professionals, trench workers, expectations, even the "value" of life is different in other countries... Just a few to get you "started" thinking, as you must consider all of this BEFORE you give the people something that may not work...
First, take a good look at our welfare system. (I believe that we have to be PC and not refer to it as welfare anymore, however, for my ease of typing, I'm going to call it welfare whether it is PC or not) We gave it to the people, what would happen if we took it away? Riots, pillage, murders? You can't say that abuse is not rampant, as it is, so should we just turn our heads as we do now because it does more harm than good currently? If welfare had been thought out more and more closely controlled by competent people, would it be different now? Would we, as a whole, be a more productive society?
Those who don't LEARN from the PAST are condemned to REPEAT it, ...are you ready...? Once you give something, you can not take it back, not in the US anyways... Are you still ready?
Has anyone researched what % of the >250,000,000 people that live in the US get some form of government assistance? Be it subsidized housing, utilities, food stamps, (I'm sorry, can't call it that anymore as it may make them feel inferior to the working idiots that have to pay taxes) transportation vouchers, daycare, healthcare, medicine, etc.? (They can't fully support themselves, for whatever reason, bad health, lazy, lack of self control, taking advantage of the system, bad decisions, whatever, bottom line, they need the government to support them or at least subsidize them...)
For a country that has no healthcare, we sure do have a lot of people that get it for free... I have seen this many times during the last year and a half with my health problems, hospital stays, doctor visits, tests, etc... Talking to people in the waiting rooms, reading the pamphlets that tell you how to get the free healthcare... Yeah, you have to fill out paperwork, but it is free healthcare. I don't know why they can't just show up and get it for free? <scratching a$$, sniffin' finger> I was writing big checks and they paid nothing, same doctors as I was seeing and I have insurance and pay for it, go figure... Do you want me to explain how that works, or would you like to do the research for yourself?
You see, we have to "plan" for the unexpected, the rainy days... Just because you have $50 after paying your bills doesn't mean that you can head to the pub, movies, restaurants, theme parks, what ever and blow it, and expect someone else to pay for your unexpected expenses.
How many of the people ever took how much they actually made for a year and subtracted how much they actually HAD to spend to survive for the year? Not many would take the time to see how much money they truly "blow" during the course of the year as it is too easy to blame it on their job, the economy, what ever, ...lack of self discipline is more than less the problem. Yes, everyone wants to make $100,000 a year, but ask them what they have done to earn that much? It's all about entertainment these days and getting something for nothing...
Universal Healthcare;
What is the population of the countries that have universal healthcare?
Do they have some form of welfare? If so, what % of their people is on it or benefit from it?
How many hours is their typical work week? How much yearly vacation time? What are their labor laws?
How much tax do they pay?
How many other free programs do their governments offer?
What is their education system like? Their public utilities, electricity, potable water, storm drains, emergency services such as police and fire? Get this, what about law suits? Can you fall down in a store for not watching where you are walking and get rich from suing the store in their country?
What is the quality of healthcare in said countries?
Do people have to go outside of their country to get "quality" healthcare?
Is the amount or numbers of healthcare professionals in said countries getting larger or smaller? (Are more people becoming doctors or are they leaving for other countries where they can make more money?) What is the amount of young people planning to become doctors/nurses, etc., now as opposed to before? Increasing or decreasing? Keep in mind; the true effects often take years to see, just as the effects of a President...
Has any research been done on before and after effects?
Will this cause more people to go to the doctor more often? Hey, with a doctors note, I can miss work and the doctor is free, no brainer, eh? Even an idiot will figure that out quickly.
There is no cure for the common cold, will it be ok to go to the doctor because I sneezed and my eyes are red? It's free, why not? My elbow hurts, no problem, free doctor visit? Free pain killers!!!!!! Would many people abuse this? Would they, by chance, not just be the same people that abuse welfare, would we be starting a whole new group of people to be reliant on the gov? Would that really be a good thing?
How many law suits will happen now due to diluted healthcare? Who will pay for this new deluge of lawsuits because "he" died because that doctor should have known and treated his condition better? Do you think the best doctors are going to want to participate? What will we have to do to get more healthcare workers into the field as obviously more people will now be going to doctors and more often?
Who will set the price on how much each type of medical profession is "allowed" to earn? Don't even think about saying that they can earn what they want as free enterprise in healthcare will be non existent anymore... That wouldn't be fair, now would it? To only allow the less productive, less educated, paid less attention during university schooling & partied more, less considerate, less passionate, less understanding doctors to be a part of Universal Healthcare... I deserve the best doctor with my free healthcare! Lawsuit!
How does our culture differ from their culture? In most countries, if you don't work, you don't eat, that is not true here in the US, refer to welfare. We have turned into a country of lazies that want to get rich, and do nothing to earn it.
What % of our >250,000,000 have overextended themselves and basically live off credit? (Basically, lack of control of spending usually pertaining to entertainment over-indulgence)
Exceptions shouldn't make the rules, should they?
The problem is everyone wants something for free. Who wants to work? And if you work, why would you want to spend your money on necessities with there is so much entertainment that you can enjoy. Again, there are exceptions, always, and the exceptions are not the burden. The problem is that everyone wants in on it, not just the exceptions or the truly needy, which, quite candidly can and do get help now. They just have to look for it and meet the requirements. Of course, you have to research and make calls. The doctors that work in just about every hospital have to spend time in free clinics. Wait! What? Free clinics? Yes, research a bit in your area as they are not that hard to find... Oh, you make to much to qualify, how about reviewing and revising your expenditures? There are exceptions for extenuating circumstances… If you don’t want to go route, you probably already know that you are merely blowing smoke and want something for nothing…
We put such a high value on life here. Everyone must live as long as their heart beats-even if it is only beating due to a machine beating for it.
People need to take more responsibility for themselves. A living will, is a start. What is life? What is reasonable quality of life? Why "live" when you can't feed yourself, can't get up an go to the restroom, whatever, your life is finished, why be a burden on your loved ones and society as a whole when there is no hope, nothing more than costly “existence”... Why don't you go visit some hospitals and nursing homes to get a better understanding before you comment with your emotions, how great of a person you are for trying to save the world, how compassionate, whatever you choose to tell yourselves to "justify" yourselves. Yes, we directly and indirectly subsidize those people...
Responsibility? Financial responsibility! That's different! Why don't you try living with-in your means? Everyone can't have a new car, 3 car garage, go party every night, ...sorry... It takes a lot of work and sacrifices to exceed. Screw around in school and pay for it the rest of your life, and blame someone else and expect someone else to provide for you, why? Exactly who owes you what?
I know people that make $2000 per week and have no money. I know people that make $500 per week and have a nice savings and many other nice things. It's not what you make, it's what you do with it... Try teaching your kids the importance of an education instead of looking for a babysitter so you can go out. Weekend warriors are the most common. Hey, I worked ALL WEEK! (5 days) and now I deserve to go out on the weekend! Yeah, go ahead, and rest assured that you will never have anything, at least from your own means...
Education! Now that is an idea! You see here in the USA, basically 12 years of good education is mandatory (Don't start with the 16 YO with parents consent, crap. Again, rules, not exceptions) People die everyday trying to get into this country for a better way of life. We hate them because they can't speak our language, yet never realize that many are illiterate in their language because they didn't have the opportunity to get the type of education that we take for granted here... So why don't we focus our energy on teaching the importance of education to the youth? School is not just a free baby sitter, although to many that is exactly what it is. Let the teachers teach the kids, that's their job, I have my own life to lead, there is fun to be had!
We want cheap oil and electricity, yet we can not risk our environment. It is OK to risk and possibly ruin someone else's though…
We want strong and cheap houses, but don't cut down the trees!
Everything MUST be PAID for by Someone, understand that... Life has no short cut… How can people expect to get something for nothing? How can you not understand that sacrifices are necessary to achieve the desired end result. You value far greatly, things that you earn and save for, and piss away everything that comes free and easy… Yes, we live in a country that everyone wants to take advantage of everything. We want to make a million dollars and do nothing for it, and we want cheap gas, oil, electricity, houses, healthcare, food and expect no sacrifices.
Here’s a hint, change your life style or learn to do with out, the way that YOUR ancestors did…
Throwing money at a problem isn't a solution, just research social security and understand that it wasn't meant to be a retirement plan for everyone. And it was never intended to be a permanent solution. You must "plan" and budget for your retirement. It was known at inception that SS wouldn't and couldn't last, yet look at how it is viewed today. OMG, SS is running out of money! Really? Ya think? We don't learn from our past very well, do we?...
Oh yeah, don't confuse "insurance" with "healthcare", as they are very different...
R0cke113 wrote:I agree very slightly with the tax breaks given to big businesses, however I feel that money could be put to better use by using it to help small and medium businesses start and grow. More tax is not the answer by any means. While the initial idea of taxing the hell out of the rich who have more money than what they know what to do with and some have gone by ripping others off is thrilling. Then i rationalize the entire thought and it consequences. That means no one can legaly get rich anymore because the moment you do your poor because you now have the RESPONSIBILITY of caring for an entire nation. Also the average american can not afford to take home any less money. Sure the poor people it is helping directly, but we cant forget that when they get paid IF they work they only get about half their paycheck because the other half is paying for their health care and all the other things we have asked for. For every dollar you request from the govt. they will take 2 because it costs money to run a business and thats how it is treated. And to think for even part a moment that the politicians wouldn't take full advantage of and abuse the hell out of this program is purely naive. Just like the govt. controlling PA turn pikes. They put them near bankruptcy turned them over to a S.american Co. for like 50 yrs and now they want to take over and ruin another interstate. The GOVT. cannot be trusted, which is why we the people must run our own programs and ask only the basics from our politicians.
Giving more money to small business owners is not going to solve the problem. Even if we did give them enough to support their employees with health care It would cost us more to supply enough money for them to provide health care at the current rates than UOD's idea anyways. It's a waste of cash. Lower the cost of health care and small business can than afford to offer health care plans and individuals can invest in their own health care plan.
Also your idea that nobody could get rich is silly.
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Stephen Hawking
For you people who are complaining about carrying the weight of slackers. You already do. If the people of America where healthier instead using tobacco, eating ho hos, taking drugs for everything and anything, just being a lazy butt and driving like morons. Then their would be less health care needs. With less trips to the hospital insurance companies could lower their cost as they would be spending less on the medical cost. We could just sit back and let the free market do it's thing. A lower cost for health care would provide us with healthier Americans as more people would be willing to get regular checkups. Meaning early detection could prevent the formation of chronic problems. Which means less money spent on health care. As it is now I am under the understanding that almost 75% of the 2 trillion dollars a year we spend on health care goes towards treating chronic conditions instead of preventing them. If we could flip that around we would save a butt load of cash. Either we lower the cost of health care or we put restrictions on health. Either way it is not getting done and innocent people are suffering for it and that is unacceptable for the greatest nation ever.
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Stephen Hawking
jeremyboycool wrote:Giving more money to small business owners is not going to solve the problem. Even if we did give them enough to support their employees with health care It would cost us more to supply enough money for them to provide health care at the current rates than UOD's idea anyways. It's a waste of cash. Lower the cost of health care and small business can than afford to offer health care plans and individuals can invest in their own health care plan.
Also your idea that nobody could get rich is silly.
Wait wait, there's a problem -- it's not GIVING more money to small business owners, it's taking less of THEIR MONEY. It's not the federal government's money to begin with. That's the big difference in philosophy here.
jeremyboycool wrote:For you people who are complaining about carrying the weight of slackers. You already do.
Awesome, then use the money they already take from me and don't take more. That's simple. My point is quit pissing away money on bullshit and spend it where it needs to be spent -- it's not about not giving people health care to me. It's not even about more taxes for me, it's about using the taxes already taken wisely -- then giving more for useful programs becomes something that's necessary and important...not just pissing away more of my hard earned money.
It should be mentioned that some tasks are better handled en masse.
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
jeremyboycool wrote:For you people who are complaining about carrying the weight of slackers. You already do. If the people of America where healthier instead using tobacco, eating ho hos, taking drugs for everything and anything, just being a lazy butt and driving like morons. Then their would be less health care needs. With less trips to the hospital insurance companies could lower their cost as they would be spending less on the medical cost. We could just sit back and let the free market do it's thing. A lower cost for health care would provide us with healthier Americans as more people would be willing to get regular checkups. Meaning early detection could prevent the formation of chronic problems. Which means less money spent on health care. As it is now I am under the understanding that almost 75% of the 2 trillion dollars a year we spend on health care goes towards treating chronic conditions instead of preventing them. If we could flip that around we would save a butt load of cash. Either we lower the cost of health care or we put restrictions on health. Either way it is not getting done and innocent people are suffering for it and that is unacceptable for the greatest nation ever.
You are missing the point... The problem, in sincerity, is our society as a whole, abuses every single opportunity possible. Pure communism would be a great thing, however, as history has shown, it is impossible, and quite honestly, that is what you are asking for, even if you don't realize it...
There is no reforming all of the US citizens as a whole, too much time has passed, too many gifts have been given and continue to be given, too much abuse and too many willing to abuse, too many people living off the system...
If you really want to understand, why don't you go vist some other countries and you will see what I mean. No work = no food, period. Is that inhumane?
No money = no medical treatment, that is the norm for most of the world, with a few countries as an exception... Quite honestly, you don't realize what you currently have, again, get a passport, see the world, then come back and complain...
Are you referring to an industrialized Western country?
david
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
It should be mentioned that some tasks are better handled en masse.
I don't disagree, however, what confuses me is that you see how our society abuses everything, period. It is the American way to take advantage. You can see the mistakes that government intervention has caused with welfare, social security, civil service workers, higher education funding, just about every aspect that involves a specific group of people. If we had not evolved to this point, it may be different and universal healthcare may have, at one time, been a possibility.
Nothing more than the "probability" of abuse is far too great of a risk, in our country, with our mentality and morals or lack of. I am over the lazy wanting everything for nothing and I end up paying for it. I select who I help, eliminating a greater % of potential abuse.
And, quite honestly, I am not sure where these people get that there is no free healthcare now. The people that truly need it, can get it.
Again, insurance and healthcare are 2 totally different things... Many seem to get that confused.
Are you referring to an industrialized Western country?
david
I see where you are going, merely refering to the US. However, compare that to;
Total number of countries, in the world. Total population of the world.
Perhaps you meaning USA, Europe and Japan? Let me throw Mexico, China, India, hell most of Asia, Africa, Central & South America. Do the math. In those countries, you provide for yourself, the best that you can and you know what, I don't hear them crying poor mouth. I see them doing the best that they can.
Ken wrote:The people that truly need it, can get it.
Honest question to you: if someone is a diabetic and needs insulin supplies, etc. but cannot afford to pay for an insulin pump and medicine, can they get it free (to them) under the current system? Lets say they're a child under 18 years old with dead beat parents. What if they're an adult (30s..)? Older in their 70s? I'm curious. My understanding is that hospitals cannot turn someone away based on their ability to pay (for emergency care).
Amro wrote:Honest question to you: if someone is a diabetic and needs insulin supplies, etc. but cannot afford to pay for an insulin pump and medicine, can they get it free (to them) under the current system? Lets say they're a child under 18 years old with dead beat parents. What if they're an adult (30s..)? Older in their 70s? I'm curious. My understanding is that hospitals cannot turn someone away based on their ability to pay (for emergency care).
In short answer, yes. You must have not spent much time in hospitals lately. There is an abundance of info there on where to get free healthcare and medicine. Of course, you have to comply and fill out forms. Somewhat of a disgrace to admit that you can't support yourself and the life style that you want to have. And if you are merely looking for an easy way for someone else to pay, they may catch you. If you truly can't afford it, it will be provided for you. If you really are in need, let me know, perhaps I can guide you to the path...
The child would be removed from custody of the dead beat parents and become a ward of the state, but most definitely yes.
Ken wrote:You are missing the point... The problem, in sincerity, is our society as a whole, abuses every single opportunity possible. Pure communism would be a great thing, however, as history has shown, it is impossible, and quite honestly, that is what you are asking for, even if you don't realize it...
There is no reforming all of the US citizens as a whole, too much time has passed, too many gifts have been given and continue to be given, too much abuse and too many willing to abuse, too many people living off the system...
If you really want to understand, why don't you go vist some other countries and you will see what I mean. No work = no food, period. Is that inhumane?
No money = no medical treatment, that is the norm for most of the world, with a few countries as an exception... Quite honestly, you don't realize what you currently have, again, get a passport, see the world, then come back and complain...
Don't spin me that BS you are going to have to do allot better than that.
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Stephen Hawking
Amro wrote:Wait wait, there's a problem -- it's not GIVING more money to small business owners, it's taking less of THEIR MONEY. It's not the federal government's money to begin with. That's the big difference in philosophy here.
Yes you are right. Sorry for the inaccuracy, but it does nothing to change my point.
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Stephen Hawking
Ken wrote:I see where you are going, merely refering to the US. However, compare that to;
Total number of countries, in the world. Total population of the world.
Perhaps you meaning USA, Europe and Japan? Let me throw Mexico, China, India, hell most of Asia, Africa, Central & South America. Do the math. In those countries, you provide for yourself, the best that you can and you know what, I don't hear them crying poor mouth. I see them doing the best that they can.
The US has more in common with Europe and Canada than Costa Rica or Brazil. (Been there).
Is there something wrong in seeking a better America?
You are correct in that there are many ways for the poor to obtain free health care. Sadly, lower middle and middle class folk do not have those options.
Frankly, I am uncertain on the topic of Universal Health Care.
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
Ken wrote:I don't disagree, however, what confuses me is that you see how our society abuses everything, period. It is the American way to take advantage. You can see the mistakes that government intervention has caused with welfare, social security, civil service workers, higher education funding, just about every aspect that involves a specific group of people. If we had not evolved to this point, it may be different and universal healthcare may have, at one time, been a possibility.
Nothing more than the "probability" of abuse is far too great of a risk, in our country, with our mentality and morals or lack of. I am over the lazy wanting everything for nothing and I end up paying for it. I select who I help, eliminating a greater % of potential abuse.
And, quite honestly, I am not sure where these people get that there is no free healthcare now. The people that truly need it, can get it.
Again, insurance and healthcare are 2 totally different things... Many seem to get that confused.
Laws and there application are paramount in keeping ALL playing fields level.
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
David wrote:The US has more in common with Europe and Canada than Costa Rica or Brazil. (Been there).
Is there something wrong in seeking a better America?
You are correct in that there are many ways for the poor to obtain free health care. Sadly, lower middle and middle class folk do not have those options.
Frankly, I am uncertain on the topic of Universal Health Care.
So basically what you are saying is that selective is OK. A fine line indeed...
However, the greater portion of the world is in far worse shape and you don't hear them begging...
Sadly, the lower and middle classes choose to be irresponsible... They want to live above their means...
Ken wrote:So basically what you are saying is that selective is OK. A fine line indeed...
However, the greater portion of the world is in far worse shape and you don't hear them begging...
Sadly, the lower and middle classes choose to be irresponsible... They want to live above their means...
1. Selective in comparison? No, just keeping it apples to apples. Indeed much of the world has it worse than we do. Are they begging? Good question. If they were, who would listen.
2. Said irresponsibility is no stranger to all social strata, however health issurance is less of a problem for the better off.
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
Ken wrote:Loop holes and abuse supercede... Special interest groups are a basis of the problems... Always have been...
Such is the case with nearly all programs and human endevours. The benefit to the masses must be weighed against its costs. I would not without pain medication from a patient out of abuse concerns. Learn to deal with the cheats.
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
Ken wrote:Sadly everyone chooses to be irresponsible... They want to live above their means...
Fixed.
Ed McMahon and Evander Holyfield are the latest celebrity economic meltdown casualties. Both made mega millions over the years and now find themselves in a financial nightmare and at risk of losing their homes to foreclosure. McMahon said it best to CNN's Larry King , "You take your eye off the ball and spend more than you make."
Just two of the rich outspending what they make.
*edit*
Mr. Snipes said: “I’m very sorry for my mistakes. I acknowledge that I have failed myself and others.”
People will forget what you said... and people will forget what you did... but people will never forget how you made them feel.
Ken wrote:Choose to believe what you choose to believe...
You better count on it. You talk allot about our free health care but I get the impression you know very little about it. I see this as an argument from a number of people. But if anything it is more damaging to their plead. Listen I tried to explain my view and maybe I'll try again later. But Ken I really do not think you are seeing the whole picture and I don't speak out of ideas or something I read. I speak out of personal experience and not my own alone. To be honest people close to me have been trough to much to be judge by you. You say learn to live without. Well you have no idea what some of these people have learned to live with. If you want to find out visit a public mental health institution and stay a spell.
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Stephen Hawking
Ken wrote:
Sadly, the lower and middle classes choose to be irresponsible... They want to live above their means...
Bull pucky that might be true for some but that's a pretty general statement there.
Secondly, universal health care isn't exactly communism although it might be a bit closer to socialism. Depends on the country you live in. That word is thrown around carelessly to raise the hackles of the John Birchers and those still in the McCarthy era.
downhill wrote:I can easily explain that for millions of Americans, JC.
Let's see....for one person...and I'm basing this on people I work with, 600 to 800 a month for health insurance. That's a lot of money for someone making even 50,000 a year.
Now if you commute, add the cost of gas into that. Your housing costs, your auto payment and your insurance for your auto because without all of those, you aren't going to work unless you happen to be lucky enough to live close enough to your work location or you live in a big city with good city wide public transportaton and even then, that also costs.
So lets see.....make a medical insurance payment and starve or not make it so you can keep your car with enough left over to get to work everyday.
what you stated is a huge problem for a lot of americans
JC wrote:How many of these people you're speaking of have nice cars, cell phones, cable or sat TV etc..... Priorities is what this is about!
poeple shold not have all of their money sucked from them so they can have crappy to decent healthcare and not be able to enjoy a little luxury (if you can call cable tv and cell phones luxury)
jeremyboycool wrote:It is estimated that nearly 47 million Americans in 2005 were uninsured. Are you gonna to tell me that all 47 million of these people don't know how to budget their money?
i think a lot of the problem is not that they can't budget, but they don't have enough money to budget. hence the term, "rob peter to pay paul".
jasonb31 wrote:Because people will take advantage of the system as usual. Like my former friends girlfriend who has us pay for her and her kids while she is still going to college and getting nowhere at 35 years old. She is a liberal democrat who thinks the country should take care of her witch it does and then she bitches about it. I have wanted to knock her out on many occasions for the comments she makes about our country witch pays for her freeloading ass. Her son has bad diabetes and we pay for that too but she still goes to school and will not work after failing to get into nursing school five times.
Should we be forced to pay for this just because?
I am glad you can run the six minute mile, I have a bad back but should that prevent me from getting health insurance when I can probably smoke your ass in the 100 yard dash? Nope, Didn't think so. My employer pays my health insurance because I have one worked for him for a long time and two I work hard. I paid for my own before my work started paying my personal policy. Then our staff leasing company that we use demands that so many people with the company have health insurance through them so we all had to sign on through them.
My boss pays over $300.00 a month for me, When I got a quote for myself through the same insurance company it was much cheaper. That is something that they need to stop as well.
LOL....well then do you see by your own examples how broken the system is? So why not fix it while bringing care to everyone? Most reform will probably be made in "affordability".
My GF just had her tubes tied....so that she doesn't bring any unnplanned/unwanted children into the world. That cost $14,000. Does that sound like we have our priorities straight?
That's a very nice house. David, what does an average doctor make, starting out (I know it varies based on speciality, but generally)?
