Universal Healthcare: How to git'r done for the US

[JawZ]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=91971170

If we are so smart and our system is so great, then why out of 19 industrialized nations are we at position number 19 on quality of healthcare?
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl ... ty&spell=1

The answers are abroad, proven in systems that work.

We'll need a combo fix based on the strengths of systems that are successful in Europe.


Now before you all have a coronary, think about this: Every driver in the United States has to have some sort of vehicle insurance and the government is responsible for keeping it affordable. Why can't that model work for healthcare? At the same time, the rich should help subsidize the insurance for the poor....just as they do for car insurance.


the major obstacles....greed and arrogance.

[CiscoKid]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=91971170

If we are so smart and our system is so great, then why out of 19 industrialized nations are we at position number 19 on quality of healthcare?
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl ... ty&spell=1

The answers are abroad, proven in systems that work.

We'll need a combo fix based on the strengths of systems that are successful in Europe.


Now before you all have a coronary, think about this: Every driver in the United States has to have some sort of vehicle insurance and the government is responsible for keeping it affordable. Why can't that model work for healthcare? At the same time, the rich should help subsidize the insurance for the poor....just as they do for car insurance.


the major obstacles....greed and arrogance.

I am 100% UNinsured for YOUR health!

I'd welcome Universal Health care that works for the masses instead of excluding many because they're male, do not abuse drugs, don't drink much, and are trying to make something of their lives

[JC]

At the same time, the rich should help subsidize the insurance for the poor....just as they do for car insurance.


the major obstacles....greed and arrogance.

Please explain why YOU think the "RICH" should subsidize the cost of health insurance?

[JawZ]

Please explain why YOU think the "RICH" should subsidize the cost of health insurance?

Please explain why YOU think the "RICH" should NOT subsidize the cost of health insurance?


We can play games all day long. You are en elitist arrogant prick...hence why I didn't bother to help you with your little ugly duckling business card.

Like how that s h i t works?

If you have a better plan...let's see it because as of right now, the status quo aint getting it done.

So....I've provided a solution, stop your god damn crying.

[JC]

Please explain why YOU think the "RICH" should NOT subsidize the cost of health insurance?


We can play games all day long. You are en elitist arrogant prick...hence why I didn't bother to help you with your little ugly duckling business card.

Like how that s h i t works?

If you have a better plan...let's see it because as of right now, the status quo aint getting it done.

So....I've provided a solution, stop your god damn crying.

Because until you show me otherwise in the founding documents. I don't think they should be forced @ gun point

Solution: Sounds like Marxism to me!

Btw: It wasn't a business card

[downhill]

Keep the insults out of the thread, please. As well as the name calling.


JC, tell me why is it the US has the best health care in the world but the highest mortality rate for infants out of all the big industrialized nations?

Really that's a huge embarrassment for this country.

[JC]

Keep the insults out of the thread, please. As well as the name calling.


JC, tell me why is it the US has the best health care in the world but the highest mortality rate for infants out of all the big industrialized nations?

Really that's a huge embarrassment for this country.

DH, I don't really know. Nor do I have all the answers. *SHRUG*

[JC]

I am 100% UNinsured for YOUR health!

I'd welcome Universal Health care that works for the masses instead of excluding many because they're male, do not abuse drugs, don't drink much, and are trying to make something of their lives

Of course you welcome it, You don't have any. Why don't you explain why you don"t?

[downhill]

I can easily explain that for millions of Americans, JC.

Let's see....for one person...and I'm basing this on people I work with, 600 to 800 a month for health insurance. That's a lot of money for someone making even 50,000 a year.

Now if you commute, add the cost of gas into that. Your housing costs, your auto payment and your insurance for your auto because without all of those, you aren't going to work unless you happen to be lucky enough to live close enough to your work location or you live in a big city with good city wide public transportaton and even then, that also costs.

So lets see.....make a medical insurance payment and starve or not make it so you can keep your car with enough left over to get to work everyday.

[JC]

I can easily explain that for millions of Americans, JC.

Let's see....for one person...and I'm basing this on people I work with, 600 to 800 a month for health insurance. That's a lot of money for someone making even 50,000 a year.

Now if you commute, add the cost of gas into that. Your housing costs, your auto payment and your insurance for your auto because without all of those, you aren't going to work unless you happen to be lucky enough to live close enough to your work location or you live in a big city with good city wide public transportaton and even then, that also costs.

So lets see.....make a medical insurance payment and starve or not make it so you can keep your car with enough left over to get to work everyday.

How many of these people you're speaking of have nice cars, cell phones, cable or sat TV etc..... Priorities is what this is about!

[YeOldeStonecat]

Question.....would we, as patients, have at least the level of "choice of doctors"...if under a system such as in the npr.org link that UOD put up?

With the health care plans that I've been under...I have at least some sort of flexibility, and freedom to seek the care of a doctor/specialist of my choice (as long as I consult my primary first....starting within my network).

I don't know (sorry..didn't take the time to look)..if the systems such as mentioned in that link about German and the Netherlands..allows that. It's something that is important to me.

[jeremyboycool]

How many of these people you're speaking of have nice cars, cell phones, cable or sat TV etc..... Priorities is what this is about!

It is estimated that nearly 47 million Americans in 2005 were uninsured. Are you gonna to tell me that all 47 million of these people don't know how to budget their money?

[JC]

It is estimated that nearly 47 million Americans in 2005 were uninsured. Are you gonna to tell me that all 47 million of these people don't know how to budget their money?

Don't know. What I do know is that no one can be denied healthcare in this country based on their ability to pay!

[JC]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=91971170

If we are so smart and our system is so great, then why out of 19 industrialized nations are we at position number 19 on quality of healthcare?
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl ... ty&spell=1

The answers are abroad, proven in systems that work.

We'll need a combo fix based on the strengths of systems that are successful in Europe.


Now before you all have a coronary, think about this: Every driver in the United States has to have some sort of vehicle insurance and the government is responsible for keeping it affordable. Why can't that model work for healthcare? At the same time, the rich should help subsidize the insurance for the poor....just as they do for car insurance.


the major obstacles....greed and arrogance.

Here is an Idea, If it's so great just move over there and leech off of those people!

[jeremyboycool]

Don't know. What I do know is that no one can be denied healthcare in this country based on their ability to pay!

You mean a patient with an emergency condition. I thought that is how it works. But regardless leaving these people uninsured is not a suitable solution to the problem. Medical cost without insurance could leave a person financially crippled.

[brembo]

How many of these people you're speaking of have nice cars, cell phones, cable or sat TV etc..... Priorities is what this is about!

Quick and dirty:

Nice car (400$ a month) infact thats roughly a 25k car at a decent interest rate with a 3k down payment.
Cell phone (40-60 a month)
Cable (30 or 60 depending on internet or not)

Okay, the nice car thing can go bye-bye, and we can decide on a nice Toyota Echo, gets good mileage and is pretty spend thrift. 200 bucks a month.

Cable, not a necessity like a car. So, there's 50 bucks a month.

Cable, again not something needed to get to work or make money. 50 bucks saved.

So, in the end yer saving 300 bucks. Tidy little sum, but nowhere near what you need to cough up for a decent insurance plan. If you are of child bearing age and married? HAHAHAHA, yeah right.

So it's not so much about priorities but more about simple quality of life. If yer tossing out a significant portion of your take home to be insured, what kinda crapola foods are you eating? Will you have any money to vacation and reduce stress? Paycheck to paycheck folks get the squeeze and decisions must be made.

[JawZ]

Because until you show me otherwise in the founding documents. I don't think they should be forced @ gun point

Solution: Sounds like Marxism to me!

Btw: It wasn't a business card

Look, let me make this simple for you....to end it all...once and for all.


Your questions have been asked before, by people like me, and I was enlightened that I was wrong.

Why should the rich pay or not pay?


Wrong question....


How can the rich help to elevate our society?


See, you think that I'm trying to rob you. I'm not. You see highway robbery because that's what the shortsighted see.....that's what the power elite wants you to see. Helping the poor will make the rich...even richer.


Once we elevate the poor, in social, educational, and financial standings within our society, they can INVEST in more of what the RICH are SELLING!!!!!

Poor people don't contribute to the wealth of the rich. It's idiocy NOT to bring the poor up to a better standard of living....they are customers!!!!!!!!!!!!

But you see, this is LONG term....not short term.


But you see JC, this isn't about just that.....you see, the powerful and elite don't want to be threatened by ideas that are not their own. they do not wish to share power....and elevating our society is a threat to their status, not their pocketbook.


the bottom line is this: Universal healthcare is a win win situation, we just have to A. Want to do it and B. Make it happen in a smart and efficient manner.

Nobody here is going to argue that ALL social programs have their flaws. their is abuse and corruption everywhere. Nobody is going to argue that we need to insure that the lazy ass mofo's don't take advantage of the program. But that shouldn't stop us JC. It's just an obstacle to overcome.

[Leatherneck]

I don't take my healthcare lightly and am very fortunate. My wife & I have health insurance for life and I am also in the VA system as a disabled vet. No premiums, but only a small co-pay. Of course there was that little matter of serving 20+ years in the Marines to get it.

It's a travesty that people go with little or no coverage. Someone is paying for it one way or another and I won't pretend to have an answer.

[CiscoKid]

Of course you welcome it, You don't have any. Why don't you explain why you don"t?

I haven't been able to find stable work in almost a year, even then working minimum wage barely gave me enough money for food and school at 150 to 200 every two weeks, meaning 3 to 400 a month. 40 bucks a week in gas, 200 for rent paid to my parents, leaving me with nothing at the end of the month let alone 600 a month for a private insurance plan.

Going to the ER for medical treatment still leaves me needing to pay 350 dollars just for Advair to treat my asthma, let alone seek treatment for a main cause of not being able to find steady work. While helping my parents move last summer, their fridge fell on me when I was moving it out of the house. It slammed me into one of the steps causing me serious problems ever since.

[JawZ]

Don't know. What I do know is that no one can be denied healthcare in this country based on their ability to pay!

See, this just proves without any shadow of doubt that you have ZERO clue about this issue.


Ever hear the term pre-existing medical condition?


I have medical for life as I'm also in the military but if I needed coverage on the outside, I'd be denied because I had one episode of Atrial Fibrillation while in service to my country. But of course you'll say that it's all my fault and that I should somehow be able to pay for healthcare WITHOUT any type of insurance.

[downhill]

How many of these people you're speaking of have nice cars, cell phones, cable or sat TV etc..... Priorities is what this is about!

I'd say hardly any as far as nice cars....or even cable or sat TV.

WTF? about cell phones? You willing to live without a phone? It's pretty much a necessity for most families anymore.

[downhill]

Don't know. What I do know is that no one can be denied healthcare in this country based on their ability to pay!

There's a myth.

[Indy]

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/may/07 ... e-dumping7

[MadDoctor]

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/may/07 ... e-dumping7

In order to resolve the charges, Kaiser Permanente agreed to establish new discharge rules, provide more training for employees.

Kaiser.... Ack!!!!!!!

[Bouncer]

Keep the insults out of the thread, please. As well as the name calling.


JC, tell me why is it the US has the best health care in the world but the highest mortality rate for infants out of all the big industrialized nations?

Really that's a huge embarrassment for this country.

Not taking sides, but I know this one (with help from an OB/GYN I know personally).

1) The statistics are skewed a bit because a lot of fetuses make it to term that really shouldn't. In most other countries they would not survive until birth. Consequently, the US has an ability to birth children who are drastically underweight or have severe medical issues. However, these children simply have a higher mortality rate and there's not a lot we can do about it. We're sort of delaying the inevitable, but because they are live births, they count against the infant mortality rate.

2) We don't have comprehensive obstetrics care in this country, which means a lot of poorer women are giving birth to babies with addiction issues or chemical imbalances because of drug abuse by the parents. These children also contribute to the higher IMR and skew the results a little as well. Even if we provide the absolute best care possible for free, if the mother isn't taking care of herself, that can kill the child, even if it is a live birth.

3) We are driving OB/GYNs out of the medical profession faster than we are replacing them. Between HMO's that won't pay in any reasonably timely manner, or who delay/deny payment as long as possible, and sue happy patients who want the doctor to be held responsible for their (and their babies) crack addiction, OB/GYNs are leaving the field in droves. This is actually a bit of a quiet health care crisis in this country, and there are entire counties on Long Island that have *ZERO* OB/GYNs available or who are willing to take on new patients. It's easier and far more profitable to go inject collegen into womens lips than to care for a pregnant woman for 9 months and be financially liable for the next 18 years of that infants life.
Seriously. OB/GYNs can be sued until the infant is a legal adult. Think about what that means in a professional field where the techniques, equipment and medicines change every five years or so. Less OB/GYNs translates to less care which does have an impact on the IMR.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

[brembo]

^^

it's true, OB/GYN docs have malpractice (insurance) rates that are astonishing.

[A_old]

Not taking sides, but I know this one (with help from an OB/GYN I know personally).

1) The statistics are skewed a bit because a lot of fetuses make it to term that really shouldn't. In most other countries they would not survive until birth. Consequently, the US has an ability to birth children who are drastically underweight or have severe medical issues. However, these children simply have a higher mortality rate and there's not a lot we can do about it. We're sort of delaying the inevitable, but because they are live births, they count against the infant mortality rate.

2) We don't have comprehensive obstetrics care in this country, which means a lot of poorer women are giving birth to babies with addiction issues or chemical imbalances because of drug abuse by the parents. These children also contribute to the higher IMR and skew the results a little as well. Even if we provide the absolute best care possible for free, if the mother isn't taking care of herself, that can kill the child, even if it is a live birth.

3) We are driving OB/GYNs out of the medical profession faster than we are replacing them. Between HMO's that won't pay in any reasonably timely manner, or who delay/deny payment as long as possible, and sue happy patients who want the doctor to be held responsible for their (and their babies) crack addiction, OB/GYNs are leaving the field in droves. This is actually a bit of a quiet health care crisis in this country, and there are entire counties on Long Island that have *ZERO* OB/GYNs available or who are willing to take on new patients. It's easier and far more profitable to go inject collegen into womens lips than to care for a pregnant woman for 9 months and be financially liable for the next 18 years of that infants life.
Seriously. OB/GYNs can be sued until the infant is a legal adult. Think about what that means in a professional field where the techniques, equipment and medicines change every five years or so. Less OB/GYNs translates to less care which does have an impact on the IMR.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

Wow. I'm always amazed at how statistics can be used (in general, not by DH) to paint the picture one wants to paint.

[R0cke113]

I can tell you from personal experience that being without insurance sucks and is extremely expensive. I never tried to get health care because I knew i couldn't afford it and you know what, it is NO other person or groups responsibility but my own to take care of myself. Government is here to PROTECT us no take care of us. The military and law enforcement protect us. And I'm not providing the research, however I am confident the health issues (terminal illness and general sicknesses, IE cancer) of this country are caused by the vast array of dangerous chemicals put into all the processed food we devour every day. My personal opinion only not reviewed or endorsed by the FDA if you stop eating processed food and go organic that is a sure fire way to lower your risk of any and all disease and/or illness.

It is wrong to expect those like Bill Gates who worked DAMM hard for their money to give us any of it. Us being lower middle and low class. UOD I agree that it is crazy to expect someone in your situation to pay for their medical insurance in a case like that, which is where I would agree with a 3rd party intervening to assist with that financially. I can not condone a hole country being provided health care because there would be entirely too much abuse of the system. Look at SSI for an example.

[downhill]

Rocket...guess what camp Bill Gates or Warren Buffett is in?

I'd also point out that I think you might have missed UOD's underlying premise for progressive taxes.

Increase the middle class and you decrease the amount of people in the poverty class as well as increase the the swells of the upper class pocket books.


That is if corporate welfare isn't doing it for that top one percent.

[R0cke113]

I agree very slightly with the tax breaks given to big businesses, however I feel that money could be put to better use by using it to help small and medium businesses start and grow. More tax is not the answer by any means. While the initial idea of taxing the hell out of the rich who have more money than what they know what to do with and some have gone by ripping others off is thrilling. Then i rationalize the entire thought and it consequences. That means no one can legaly get rich anymore because the moment you do your poor because you now have the RESPONSIBILITY of caring for an entire nation. Also the average american can not afford to take home any less money. Sure the poor people it is helping directly, but we cant forget that when they get paid IF they work they only get about half their paycheck because the other half is paying for their health care and all the other things we have asked for. For every dollar you request from the govt. they will take 2 because it costs money to run a business and thats how it is treated. And to think for even part a moment that the politicians wouldn't take full advantage of and abuse the hell out of this program is purely naive. Just like the govt. controlling PA turn pikes. They put them near bankruptcy turned them over to a S.american Co. for like 50 yrs and now they want to take over and ruin another interstate. The GOVT. cannot be trusted, which is why we the people must run our own programs and ask only the basics from our politicians.

[jasonb31]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=91971170

If we are so smart and our system is so great, then why out of 19 industrialized nations are we at position number 19 on quality of healthcare?
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl ... ty&spell=1

The answers are abroad, proven in systems that work.

We'll need a combo fix based on the strengths of systems that are successful in Europe.


Now before you all have a coronary, think about this: Every driver in the United States has to have some sort of vehicle insurance and the government is responsible for keeping it affordable. Why can't that model work for healthcare? At the same time, the rich should help subsidize the insurance for the poor....just as they do for car insurance.


the major obstacles....greed and arrogance.

Major obstacles are dead beats and illegals, I do not wish to give any more of my money to them.
If they only give health insurance to children of working Americans then I am all for it.

[JawZ]

To Rock and Jason,


I'm at a loss for words because I just can't understand how you view this as being "caring for a nation" lol.

It's caring for the sick. Nobody is asking you to feed, clothe, and shelter a family.....all that is being asked is that collectively, we take care of one another when we're sick. Everybody contributes...even the poor. Make the sick healthy and prevent the healthy from getting sick.

If more tax isn't the answer, then why is our system broken? This is where the idiotic politics comes into play. Nevermind the fact that we can do it....

What is so threatening about caring for the people that inhabit the best country on Earth?


I think the tide will turn once insurance companies begin their physical fitness testing for insurance qualification purposes. It is coming....because it's one more way to deny you insurance, even the folks that can pay. But it is also a way to get people in the insurance group which they subscribe to maintain a healthy living lifestyle.

It's going to be fun to see fat rich people squirm.


I'm 39 and can run a 6 minute mile....so I'm used to smoking young kids on the track.

[David]

UOD,

Who would you characterize as "rich"?

6 minute mile, not bad.

david

[downhill]

UOD,

Who would you characterize as "rich"?

6 minute mile, not bad.

david

Let me answer that.

It's not me. lol


6 minute mile... I could barely do that in high school.

I can say with pride that I can easily do that now........................................................... On my bike.

[YARDofSTUF]

It's a travesty that people go with little or no coverage. Someone is paying for it one way or another and I won't pretend to have an answer.

Yup

[MadDoctor]

I'm 39 and can run a 6 minute mile.

Only if I can use my car. Even then... some doubt exists.

[A_old]

UOD,
Who would you characterize as "rich"?

There's the problem. Politicians seem to want to set the bar at 100k or 250k. The fact is it isn't really all THAT much money when 25-35% of it is already being lopped off in federal taxes, add state taxes, property taxes, etc. and you're even lower. Add to that a weak dollar and many people making that much being small business owners who report their business income on their personal taxes (and put that money back into their business to help the economy in general) so the figure is skewed even more. The figure needs to be MUCH higher than that, IMO.

Another issue I have w/ this is the whole give an inch and they'll take a mile deal. Sorry but my wife is in school and I need to take care of her first. From there, it's my extended family that's on my mind, and then friends and from there the rest of the country, as far as people to help. That might be selfish but I'd bet most people think the same way. I had another thought but it escapes.

[downhill]

I would say that 250 squid a year, in this day and age, would really be at the top of the middle class scale.

The tax models are antiquidated as evidenced by the ATM tax. The relief that congress is giving for it, doens't reach far enough nor does it even effect those whos income, is mostly derived from capitol gains.

Amro my friend. In the long run, universal health care will end up costing you less than the current model for most Americans. That's just my opinion.

[jasonb31]

To Rock and Jason,


I'm at a loss for words because I just can't understand how you view this as being "caring for a nation" lol.

It's caring for the sick. Nobody is asking you to feed, clothe, and shelter a family.....all that is being asked is that collectively, we take care of one another when we're sick. Everybody contributes...even the poor. Make the sick healthy and prevent the healthy from getting sick.

If more tax isn't the answer, then why is our system broken? This is where the idiotic politics comes into play. Nevermind the fact that we can do it....

What is so threatening about caring for the people that inhabit the best country on Earth?


I think the tide will turn once insurance companies begin their physical fitness testing for insurance qualification purposes. It is coming....because it's one more way to deny you insurance, even the folks that can pay. But it is also a way to get people in the insurance group which they subscribe to maintain a healthy living lifestyle.

It's going to be fun to see fat rich people squirm.


I'm 39 and can run a 6 minute mile....so I'm used to smoking young kids on the track.

Because people will take advantage of the system as usual. Like my former friends girlfriend who has us pay for her and her kids while she is still going to college and getting nowhere at 35 years old. She is a liberal democrat who thinks the country should take care of her witch it does and then she bitches about it. I have wanted to knock her out on many occasions for the comments she makes about our country witch pays for her freeloading ass. Her son has bad diabetes and we pay for that too but she still goes to school and will not work after failing to get into nursing school five times.

Should we be forced to pay for this just because?

I am glad you can run the six minute mile, I have a bad back but should that prevent me from getting health insurance when I can probably smoke your ass in the 100 yard dash? Nope, Didn't think so. My employer pays my health insurance because I have one worked for him for a long time and two I work hard. I paid for my own before my work started paying my personal policy. Then our staff leasing company that we use demands that so many people with the company have health insurance through them so we all had to sign on through them.

My boss pays over $300.00 a month for me, When I got a quote for myself through the same insurance company it was much cheaper. That is something that they need to stop as well.

[David]

There's the problem. Politicians seem to want to set the bar at 100k or 250k. The fact is it isn't really all THAT much money when 25-35% of it is already being lopped off in federal taxes, add state taxes, property taxes, etc. and you're even lower. Add to that a weak dollar and many people making that much being small business owners who report their business income on their personal taxes (and put that money back into their business to help the economy in general) so the figure is skewed even more. The figure needs to be MUCH higher than that, IMO.

And there is lies the rub. You may add that 100K per annum offers a comfortable life in Kentucky but equates to homeless anywhere in the vicinity of Silicon Valley.

Often, the branded enemy is helpless to defend himself. With the "SUV driving, McMansion living" commentary, radio pundit have made the upper middle class appear despicable. Truthfully, they pay a lion's share of the tax burden, having few methods to protect their earnings from the IRS.