The Obscenity of War

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The Obscenity of War

Post by stevebakh »

I found this a good read It's fairly long, but I wanted to share it... I think it's an excerpt from a book by John Simpson, a BBC reporter covering Iraq. It's interesting, though not totally surprising to hear that Bush and his cohorts didn't really know or think about the religious divide before deciding to attack.

Link to article

Some choice quotes:
Over the years of reporting from Baghdad, I have come to love the place with a kind of angry possessiveness. After the invasion, it always enraged me to hear American officials warning Iraqis that the patience of the United States could wear thin unless they did something to help themselves.

Suggestions that America had sacrificed a great deal to help Iraq, and that everything would be fine if only Iraqis would stop their incomprehensible violence, made me boil with anger.

I have not the slightest sympathy with the vicious criminals who blow up others in the name of religion. But if you invade a complex, finely balanced society and destroy all the constraints which stop people going for each other's throats in the name of politics and religion, the primary blame is scarcely theirs.
"Gooks" are locals: the distinction between insurgents and the civil population that these Americans were supposedly there to protect was as tenuous in Iraq as it had been in Vietnam.

I once wrote a long report for the BBC on why Iraq didn't have to become another Vietnam; yet even while I was writing it, large numbers of tattooed and shaven-headed men, in uniform and out of it, who thought everyone was a gook and a fair target, were making sure that Iraq would be just as much of a disaster, and would leave similar amounts of hatred and destruction behind them when they pulled out.

Much of the problem sprang from the low quality of U.S. Army recruits.

These included a sizeable proportion of Latin American and other immigrants who had joined up in order to gain American citizenship, and there were many who had volunteered because they had a criminal record and wanted it expunged.

Within a year of the invasion, the awkwardness and widespread lack of elementary social skills among these soldiers was beginning to enrage ordinary Iraqis.

The majority of the soldiers treated all Iraqis as enemies, just as their predecessors had once treated all Vietnamese - and then they were surprised to find that most Iraqis did indeed come to hate them.
There are no better soldiers to have on your side than Americans if you are fighting an all-out war against enemy troops. They are tough, brave and very committed.

In World War II, they were much more committed than the British Army, and could never understand the British soldiers' habit of surrendering when they ran out of ammunition, fighting to the end with any weapon that came to hand.

But if you are in a war against a shadowy enemy who fire at you from around corners and behind innocent civilians, whose language and habits you have to understand, then it is better not to have the Americans around.
Opinions on the article?
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Post by Philip »

From your quotes it seems somewhat harsh on the troops... The errors are more political than military IMHO.
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Post by stevebakh »

Philip wrote:From your quotes it seems somewhat harsh on the troops... The errors are more political than military IMHO.
There's no doubt that Iraq is a gigantic politcal blunder and there were those of us that knew it would be, before it happened.

But that still doesn't negate any blame from soldiers and troops on the ground. It's not the politicians who have to interact with locals on a daily basis, it's the soldiers. If they have a bad mindset, which experience has shown us is the case, then of course, it's going to cause friction between them and the locals.

I feel that the points raised in the article are fair and valid...
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Post by brembo »

That last quote-

Might as well say "Bless their hearts, but American soldiers are rooting boors that need to go home."

Low Quality Troops huh? Would giving them finishing lessons for dining help? Maybe they could lay down their rifles and instead have a grokking session about "leaves of grass" with the insurgents.

War sucks. Lemme say that again, WAR SUCKS. In no way can you make what the troops are doing a "good thing". People die and that in and of itself is wrong. So why focus on the instrument of the destruction rather than the organism that is wielding it? If you smash your thumb while hammering a nail do you get angry at the hammer and get a better one or do you curse yourself for having piss poor aim? Do you accuse the nail of being the wrong type? Leave the grunts out of this, aim the vitriol at the politicians and profiteers for this one.
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Post by MadDoctor »

stevebakh wrote:I feel
How many years did you spend in the military? How many of those years were in a combat zone?
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Post by Bouncer »

stevebakh wrote:Opinions on the article?

Apparently he thinks the Iraqis are either small children or particularly bright monkeys sadly incapable of restraining the most basic impulses and unable to resist the siren call lure of the mujtahids that leads them over the precipice into the abyss.

Frankly, it's an amazingly arrogant position to take.

One wonders if he also thinks that of the Bosnians/Kosovars/Croats/Serbians who were engaged in the same type of powerplays masked as cultural warfare back in the 90's. Or, if being more "enlightened" (read: intelligent) europeans, perhaps it IS appropriate to hold THEIR leaders accountable for war crimes etc etc.

Fundamentally, the guy who pulls the trigger on an unarmed civilian is responsible for murder. No matter whether it's being done because the US toppled a regime, kept a regime in power, or has no presence in the area at all. It's the person who pulls the trigger that has responsibility. All this self-guilting is counter-productive and paralyzing, and it plays into the hands of the powerseekers, since now they can blame all their murders on someone else.

"It wasn't ME that cut that man's throat or set that child on fire or blew up that market with women and kids inside! It was the devil/Americans/allah/the borg who made me do it!"

Bull. Don't let them get away with it, and don't let this guy confuse you into buying the above argument.

As to the uneducated US troops, a couple of points: The Brits have tried their "refined restraint" method of operations in Basra. Once the bad guys figured out the Brits were acting like pusses they A) Stopped listening to them, and B) Began firing mortars at them regularly. Like 600 times in July. Yes, SIX HUNDRED mortars and rockets. I was THERE for part of it. The Brits wouldn't fight back, would rarely shoot back, and when they did fire counter-battery it was usually just to make noise as they first waited up to two minutes after the incomming stopped to return fire, and then frequently did so to a known empty grid square where the mortars/rockets WEREN'T COMING FROM! That's like me walking up and hitting you with a shovel and you going and tooting your car horn cheerily. W.T.F., Over? We KNEW where they were firing from, we TOLD THEM, and they wouldn't take out these locations. They wouldn't even use the Apaches we sent them for this purpose.

No wonder they had to run right out of Basra. Hell, eventually a cub scout troop with bottle rockets would've driven them out.

Now compare that to Al-Anbar. A true hell hole with day to day fighting... for a while. And then it turned around. And the REASON it turned around? The most ignant of American troops, the least refined, most aggressive, coarsest, most combative group of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children you ever did meet. Their *policy* of aggressive pursuit of the bad guys did three things. 1) It killed bad guys and demotivated the supporters. 2) It told the civilian populace that the USMC was a no joke outfit that could not be scared off, was here to stay and WOULDN'T attack them, 3) It made the tribal Sheiks realize that they might as well make their peace with the USMC, because they could not defeat them. And that, is how you deal with the Sheiks in Iraq. Be fair, be scrupulously honest. Be courteous. Give them a financial slice of the pie. But make sure they understand that you always, always, ALWAYS back your words. Once you are predictable/reliable in this fashion, they will deal with you. That's how and why AQiI started losing Al-Anbar. The Iraqis didn't just decide to stand up to them. They had to know the USMC would keep their word in order for the personal/family risk to be worth it.

Or you could try the Brit way, trying to pretend you're in Northern Ireland. Hint: YOU'RE NOT IN NORTHERN IRELAND! Nother Hint: Once the Iraqis figure out you won't back anything up they are done dealing with you. There's no future in it fro them to do so, and they are a pragamatic people. They had to be, to survive Saddam, and they are today. Grow up, stop acting as if you can deal with them on your terms, and deal with them on theirs. That means hunting down and killing every mortar/rocket team. It means threatening to bulldoze an aprtment complex if you take sniper fire from there, and then following through if the sniper fire continues. After the first time, the Iraqis will kill the sniper themselves. Trust me. They've done it before. Hung that ****er from a roof and tied his rifle to him.

Edit to add: I do not think the British are cowards. I can very disinctly recall lying on the floor of a NAAFI during a mortar attack on the Basra airbase, watching a Brit across the room also lying on the floor... sipping his milkshake. They've courage enough and then some. But their upper leadership has got them hosed and needs to relearn what T.E. Lawrence taught them so many years ago. You do not win friends in Iraq or the MidEast by displaying percieved weakness.

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Post by stevebakh »

Bouncer wrote: "It wasn't ME that cut that man's throat or set that child on fire or blew up that market with women and kids inside! It was the devil/Americans/allah/the borg who made me do it!"

Bull. Don't let them get away with it, and don't let this guy confuse you into buying the above argument.

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Strange, I didn't see him make such an argument.

Brembo, your analogy is massively flawed. A hammer is an inanimate object. A tool used to complete a very specific task.

Troops consist of human beings. In regards to the point about the quality of the troops, I think the author made it very clear what he was talking about. He didn't touch on the quality of troops from other nations, but focused on US soldiers and with good reason. He was talking about the general attitude of the soldiers and the way they treated the locals. Comparing human beings with a hammer is either stupid, or meant to be demeaning towards soldiers.

So in short, the "grunts" should still have some responsibility to act ethically and morally, in my opinion. That doesn't mean the politicians and profiteers have been forgotten.

MadDoctor, I haven't spent any years in the military and I don't feel that I need to, in order to have an opinion on the subject matter at hand. With the reasoning that you seem to be implying, I should have no opinion on politics until I've been a politician, have an opinion about a football match, without having been a player, critique a piece of writing or art, without first having been an author or an artist... etc.

I think my military field-experience should be irrelevant when discussing something in regards to attitude, morals and ethics. The journalist has made some very true points about the attitude of US soldiers in comparison to their international counterparts, with the opinion that they are not helping ease the situation. I don't disagree with that conclusion.
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Post by MadDoctor »

stevebakh wrote:MadDoctor, I haven't spent any years in the military and I don't feel that I need to, in order to have an opinion on the subject matter at hand. With the reasoning that you seem to be implying, I should have no opinion on politics until I've been a politician, have an opinion about a football match, without having been a player, critique a piece of writing or art, without first having been an author or an artist... etc..
Nope. Just asking.
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Post by brembo »

stevebakh wrote: I think my military field-experience should be irrelevant when discussing something in regards to attitude, morals and ethics. The journalist has made some very true points about the attitude of US soldiers in comparison to their international counterparts, with the opinion that they are not helping ease the situation. I don't disagree with that conclusion.

Fine ya don't like my analogy of the troops being a tool.

In fact you are 100% correct in your analysis of the troops(Americans that is). I bet those lazy scoundrels are boozing it up, laughing at Larry the Cable Guy and watching NASCAR between episodes of blowing crippled kids kneecaps off. I'll wager that they spend at least 10% of their time coming up with racial slurs for the natives. SAND LICE....bahahahahaha!

Since having NO experience as a soldier is irrelevant in the discussion of a troops mentality, I submit that me being an American has no bearing on the validity of my conclusion that British media is bunk. I know, I'm NOT British. I'm also an expert on quantum mechanics and how to land on the moon.
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Post by Bouncer »

stevebakh wrote:Strange, I didn't see him make such an argument.

Really?

"But if you invade a complex, finely balanced society and destroy all the constraints which stop people going for each other's throats in the name of politics and religion, the primary blame is scarcely theirs. "

Well whose is it then? Allah's? The Peruvians? Listen, this is really the same thing as saying "Well if the Russians hadn't stopped occupying the Balkans, there'd have never been a Balkan war!" I mean, it's effectively blaming those besides the trigger pullers. It let's Milosevic and Karadzic and so many others off the hook and blames a gov't for giving people their freedom! Further, calling Iraq "finely balanced" is like calling 1950's Mississippi race relations "nuanced". There was no "balance". It was a DICTATORSHIP! As in, "Do what we want or we kill your whole family." Not a lot of "fin balance" there.
Troops consist of human beings. In regards to the point about the quality of the troops, I think the author made it very clear what he was talking about. He didn't touch on the quality of troops from other nations, but focused on US soldiers and with good reason. He was talking about the general attitude of the soldiers and the way they treated the locals. Comparing human beings with a hammer is either stupid, or meant to be demeaning towards soldiers.

Yes, because the Brits always treat the Iraqis, or always treat the Irish with courtesy and respect. Give. Me. A Break. Number of Brit troops held accountable after Bloody Sunday? Zero. 35 years on, number held accountable? STILL ZERO. Nuff said. The point being that if he doesn't compare troops, then he's operating in a vacuum, and the truth is that there's video of Brit troops out there hitting prisoners too. So. What. Compared to what the Iraqis do to them we are still a bunch of care bears.
I think my military field-experience should be irrelevant when discussing something in regards to attitude, morals and ethics. The journalist has made some very true points about the attitude of US soldiers in comparison to their international counterparts, with the opinion that they are not helping ease the situation. I don't disagree with that conclusion.

You're welcome to your opinions, but it is going to be an opinion based on theory of how things should be, rather than on the way they really are. Or to put it another way, there's no "real world" grime on your notions of properly polished military behavior. You need to recognize that first, or your opinion comes off as naive and and adolescent to those of use who have lain on the ground and endured shelling.

It is a testament to the professionalism of the US/UK and other coalition troops professionalism that they aren't wreaking havoc, raping wantonly and stealing everything not nailed down. If you want to understand the alternative, you really should do some reading on what Saddams army did to Kuwait while they had control of it. THAT, is an undisciplined, ignorant army. Compared to them, we are angels of light and mercy with iron rod self-discipline.

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Post by Gixxer »

brembo wrote: I'm also an expert on quantum mechanics and how to land on the moon.

irrelevant if you aren't an expert on getting there :p
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Post by stevebakh »

brembo wrote:Fine ya don't like my analogy of the troops being a tool.

In fact you are 100% correct in your analysis of the troops(Americans that is). I bet those lazy scoundrels are boozing it up, laughing at Larry the Cable Guy and watching NASCAR between episodes of blowing crippled kids kneecaps off. I'll wager that they spend at least 10% of their time coming up with racial slurs for the natives. SAND LICE....bahahahahaha!

Since having NO experience as a soldier is irrelevant in the discussion of a troops mentality, I submit that me being an American has no bearing on the validity of my conclusion that British media is bunk. I know, I'm NOT British. I'm also an expert on quantum mechanics and how to land on the moon.
Sigh... it's like having a discussion with a brick wall, bordering Ghost Hunter.

I say one thing and you counter it with the far-extreme. Did I say they spend 10% of their time coming up with racial slurs? Did I talk about what they do between shifts and tours? Did I make any comment about their commitment to work and laziness? I didn't, so stop putting words into my mouth (metaphorically speaking, of course).

Also, having an opinion on something and being an expert on something specialised, are two different things. Like I said, I can have an opinion about a football match, without having been a footballer.

Again, just for you brembo, what I said was that a hammer is an inanimate tool, void of life and thought. It has no background, no upbringing, no moral 'compass', it's simply a tool made for a specific task. A soldier is a living, breathing fellow human being who should not be free of responsibility for his/her actions and the impact those actions have. It shouldn't be as simple as "those were my orders", or "but I was told to do it".

Whatever, the article obviously didn't encourage healthy discussion. I suppose I should have expected that some of you would see something showing the soldiers in less than pure light instead of "I don't support the war, but I support the troops" and just saw red. Great. I didn't see it, but I should have done.

Bouncer, just re-read my post and find where I said we should do things the "Brit" way. Maybe you should clear the red from your eyes before responding. :rolleyes:


[edit]
Well whose is it then? Allah's? The Peruvians?
I believe he's blaming the US/UK coalition for breaking the balance. Afterall, it was the UK and the USA which invaded (an action that many believed to be bad, wrong, stupid, etc and even many more who believe so now).
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Post by brembo »

Hey, spell it out phonetically...it's easier for me to read that way.

I don't see red, I'm just knee-jerking at the insinuation that our troops are somehow morally bankrupt.

Here is a rifle. Please pick it up and shoot other people with it. WAIT WAIT WAIT. Do it nicely.

Bullets are pretty much a binary type thing. It is a good thing when they are NOT flying my direction. Just about any other case involving a bullet that has been fired near my person is going to cause me to kick into survival mode and quit worrying about others psyche and begin concocting ways to cover my ass.

I've NEVER been in the military, they would have buried me under the stockade for my smartass mouth. This is detrimental to my earlier swipe of "not there...you don't know" but it's not too hard to imagine what the typical soldier has to deal with. Months away from loved ones, a radically new and frightening culture, danger lurking in every shadow and fears that you might never see friends/family again. Mix all that up with a fundamental culture clash of religion(in most cases) and you have a zesty miasma of potential for something like My Lai. The fact that the US coalition forces have not used their mind-bogglingly superior weaponry to level entire city blocks is a testament to restraint and attempts at not being boorish, self important tyrants. One guy with an M1 tank could really do some damage if the notion struck, a rouge sniper would be a wolf in a sheep pen...etc.

Philip said it earlier on, the problems are 99% political. The troops are being asked to do things that troops are not good at. Tell them to attack and hold...they excel at such. Tell them to coddle and play nice-nice and things wear thin. The government is using a mallet to do the work of a tack-hammer and as such things will get bent, broken, spindled and otherwise mutilated.
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Post by MadDoctor »

brembo wrote:Hey, spell it out phonetically...it's easier for me to read that way.

I don't see red, I'm just knee-jerking at the insinuation that our troops are somehow morally bankrupt.

Here is a rifle. Please pick it up and shoot other people with it. WAIT WAIT WAIT. Do it nicely.

Bullets are pretty much a binary type thing. It is a good thing when they are NOT flying my direction. Just about any other case involving a bullet that has been fired near my person is going to cause me to kick into survival mode and quit worrying about others psyche and begin concocting ways to cover my ass.

I've NEVER been in the military, they would have buried me under the stockade for my smartass mouth. This is detrimental to my earlier swipe of "not there...you don't know" but it's not too hard to imagine what the typical soldier has to deal with. Months away from loved ones, a radically new and frightening culture, danger lurking in every shadow and fears that you might never see friends/family again. Mix all that up with a fundamental culture clash of religion(in most cases) and you have a zesty miasma of potential for something like My Lai. The fact that the US coalition forces have not used their mind-bogglingly superior weaponry to level entire city blocks is a testament to restraint and attempts at not being boorish, self important tyrants. One guy with an M1 tank could really do some damage if the notion struck, a rouge sniper would be a wolf in a sheep pen...etc.

Philip said it earlier on, the problems are 99% political. The troops are being asked to do things that troops are not good at. Tell them to attack and hold...they excel at such. Tell them to coddle and play nice-nice and things wear thin. The government is using a mallet to do the work of a tack-hammer and as such things will get bent, broken, spindled and otherwise mutilated.
Brembo is my hero!!!!!! :nod:
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Post by MadDoctor »

stevebakh wrote:Sigh... it's like having a discussion with a brick wall.
It is a discussion... and you (like any of us) can have an opinion.

If you don't like an opinion or disagree with that opinion, then deal with it. Having a discussion with you is like talking to a brick wall. You position yourself, grab an opinion based on the fact that you suck in air and then ask for a discussion where you see the world down the view of a straw.

What a shock (that you presume) that others are wrong and you are right in that "you" are having a discussion and others disagree with you so we are a brick wall and you are upset.

You need help. Look in the mirror. Open your eyes. Take the blinders off. Grow up and smell the coffee. Get out an experience life before you judge life because you suck in air from that small room with a computer in it.

Bye bye........
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Post by stevebakh »

MadDoctor wrote:It is a discussion... and you (like any of us) can have an opinion.

If you don't like an opinion or disagree with that opinion...
I suppose you didn't read either post in question then... It was sigh in dismay that words were essentially being put into my mouth. I neither said, nor insinuated any of the things that brembo said in the post that I replied to.

Example scenario, I say I don't like the idea of health insurance. The person I'm talking to starts shouting out loud "OH HELL, NOBODY SHOULD HAVE IT THEN, WE SHOULD ALL DIE AND WALK AROUND WITH LIMBS HALF FALLING OFF, SHOULD WE!?!" You see, I didn't say that and didn't even imply it. It's taking an extreme point against a simple opinion, in an attempt to make the original point seem null and void. It's a nasty technique, one that was employed extensively by Ghost Hunter and so, when people do it, well, I suppose it's not quite like talking to a brick wall, but it was the first phrase that popped into my mind. So you see, I'm not angry because there's disagreement (after all, it's more fun to discuss when everybody disagrees), I'm angry because of the technique used to void my 'argument'.

But thanks for the advice... before you, I had absolutely no intention of experiencing life. I just permanently sit in a small room with a computer, never leaving to do anything else. Boy have you changed my perspective on life and the world around me!! BAI, I'M OUT!
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Post by brembo »

stevebakh wrote: I just permanently sit in a small room with a computer, never leaving to do anything else.

Is it a nice room?


*edit*

Also, when you say "ease the situation"? Winning the conflict or just making sure no one gets hurt? That's a big issue/point. Marines are really piss poor at making sure stuff does not get blown up and people are skipping about whistling tunes. Some of the worst around in fact. Peace Corps might be better for "easing the situation" in your definition, I dunno.
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Post by MadDoctor »

stevebakh wrote: the world around me!! BAI, I'M OUT!
Have a nice time! Take the train. Lots of stops and people to interact with.
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Post by stevebakh »

brembo wrote:Is it a nice room?


*edit*

Also, when you say "ease the situation"? Winning the conflict or just making sure no one gets hurt? That's a big issue/point. Marines are really piss poor at making sure stuff does not get blown up and people are skipping about whistling tunes. Some of the worst around in fact. Peace Corps might be better for "easing the situation" in your definition, I dunno.
I don't know... maybe just a force that isn't comprised of criminals and people who just want to 'get me some gooks'?

Maybe the training needs to place more emphasis on social and attitude development and not just show "fix everything with a big gun" style mindset.
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Post by MadDoctor »

stevebakh wrote:I'm not angry because there's disagreement (after all, it's more fun to discuss when everybody disagrees), I'm angry because no one is agreeing with me!!!!!!!
Fixed for truth.
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Post by MadDoctor »

stevebakh wrote:I don't know... maybe just a force that isn't comprised of criminals and people who just want to 'get me some gooks'?

Maybe the training needs to place more emphasis on social and attitude development and not just show "fix everything with a big gun" style mindset.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

I'm laughing at you.... not with you.
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Post by Paft »

brembo wrote:Philip said it earlier on, the problems are 99% political. The troops are being asked to do things that troops are not good at. Tell them to attack and hold...they excel at such. Tell them to coddle and play nice-nice and things wear thin. The government is using a mallet to do the work of a tack-hammer and as such things will get bent, broken, spindled and otherwise mutilated.
A-****ing-men!

Soldiers are for attacking, securing, and holding combat zones. They are very good at that. Soldiers are not good at playing diplomats - that's why we have, ya know, diplomats for that exact purpose. And our government needs to let the troops do their jobs and let the diplomats do theirs - it'll work out a whole lot better than blaming the troops for not doing something they're not trained to do!
So trade that typical for something colorful, and if it's crazy live a little crazy!
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Post by stevebakh »

MadDoctor wrote:Fixed for truth.
Again, you failed to read/understand the post, or just pick out a single section to make a nonsensical point.

The disagreement is the point of the discussion. The twisting of words and meanings is not.

I guess it all basically comes down to two things. You guys think it's perfectly fine for the military to have the mindset that it's fine to treat everyone as a potential enemy (even the people they're supposedly there to protect and "liberate"), rather than using a different approach. Well, it's clear so far that this approach isn't working. The article I posted wasn't even totally negative on the Americans. I mean, the last quote of my first post:
There are no better soldiers to have on your side than Americans if you are fighting an all-out war against enemy troops. They are tough, brave and very committed.

...

But if you are in a war against a shadowy enemy who fire at you from around corners and behind innocent civilians, whose language and habits you have to understand, then it is better not to have the Americans around.
I think that sums it up nicely. Like several of you have pointed out, they're not really trained as a police force, a peace-force or as city/society builders. They're a fighting force. The type you would use if you need to smash a large, easily recogniseable force.
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Post by Rivas »

sorry steve didnt read the whole article in your quotes but just little add, right now there is cholera in Baghdad ...wtf it's pretty old sicknes from ancient times I do believe.
That country is in ruins, there is no way of restoring order, there is no winner or looser, ops correction the winners are all kinds of ****ing terrorist groups.
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Post by MadDoctor »

stevebakh wrote:Again, you failed to read/understand the post, or just pick out a single section to make a nonsensical point.
Perhaps I understand the post just fine. I understand the post in my way (freedom of ignorance, freedom of interpritation, freedom of looking at things from a direction that is not commonly used).

Does that make me wrong?
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Post by Spammy »

MadDoctor wrote:Perhaps I understand the post just fine. I understand the post in my way (freedom of ignorance, freedom of interpritation, freedom of looking at things from a direction that is not commonly used).

Does that make me wrong?
yes. :p
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Post by MadDoctor »

Spammy wrote:yes. :p
Damn!!!!!!!!
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Post by MadDoctor »

stevebakh wrote:MadDoctor, I haven't spent any years in the military and I don't feel that I need to, in order to have an opinion on the subject matter at hand.
True. But without the inexperience of being in the military, your opinion carries very little value.
stevebakh wrote:With the reasoning that you seem to be implying, I should have no opinion on politics until I've been a politician, have an opinion about a football match, without having been a player, critique a piece of writing or art, without first having been an author or an artist... etc.
I went back and re-read the story again. I come away with the opinion that you are entitled to your opinion on any given subject you choose just as the author of the story has his opinion of the events in Iraq based on his observations (be they non dimensional and biased).

However...

I put a lot more weight in the opinions of those who have political inexperience than a person like you... who has not.

I put a lot more weight in the opinions of those who have played football than people like you... who have not.

I have a lot more respect for the opinions of those who have been writer or creator of art than you... who has done none of those things.

Seeing as how you have no experience as a war correspondent and you are drawing your opinions from the opinions of the author (who is opinionated with his opinions)... I find your desire to have a intelligent discussion on the issue flawed to the point of implosion (where this thread has gone).

If you want to have a intelligent discussion... why not talk about writing software. Something you can speak too from the first person without having to work from the opinions of opinions of others.
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Post by Rivas »

MadDoctor wrote:True. But without the inexperience of being in the military, your opinion carries very little value.

I went back and re-read the story again. I come away with the opinion that you are entitled to your opinion on any given subject you choose just as the author of the story has his opinion of the events in Iraq based on his observations (be they non dimensional and biased).

However...

I put a lot more weight in the opinions of those who have political inexperience than a person like you... who has not.

I put a lot more weight in the opinions of those who have played football than people like you... who have not.

I have a lot more respect for the opinions of those who have been writer or creator of art than you... who has done none of those things.

Seeing as how you have no experience as a war correspondent and you are drawing your opinions from the opinions of the author (who is opinionated with his opinions)... I find your desire to have a intelligent discussion on the issue flawed to the point of implosion (where this thread has gone).

If you want to have a intelligent discussion... why not talk about writing software. Something you can speak too from the first person without having to work from the opinions of opinions of others.
Kinda harsh words ...especially coming it from a guy like you doc ... :confused:
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Post by MadDoctor »

Rivas wrote:Kinda harsh words ...especially coming it from a guy like you doc ... :confused:
I didn't mean it to be harsh. Sometimes what you want to say just come out harsh when you know the guy who wrote the words really isn't a harsh guy.

I'm MadDoctor. Read it knowing who I am after all these years.
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Post by MadDoctor »

MadDoctor wrote:I didn't mean it to be harsh. Sometimes what you want to say just come out harsh when you know the guy who wrote the words really isn't a harsh guy.

I'm MadDoctor. Read it knowing who I am after all these years.
MD... I read the thing about you explaining about being not harsh and can't understand a thing you said. Spit out the gum and type it again.

Damn you're dumb MD........
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Post by Rivas »

MadDoctor wrote:I didn't mean it to be harsh. Sometimes what you want to say just come out harsh when you know the guy who wrote the words really isn't a harsh guy.

I'm MadDoctor. Read it knowing who I am after all these years.
I know who you are :D

However, I dont consider steve as a troublemaker.

**** it, lets find some sheeps for you and some tortoises for me :thumb: :cool: :D
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Post by Rivas »

MadDoctor wrote:MD... I read the thing about you explaining about being not harsh and can't understand a thing you said. Spit out the gum and type it again.

Damn you're dumb MD........
Never said and never will that you are dumb ....you are pretty clever guy bambi ;)
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Post by downhill »

MD is a guy bambi?
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Post by Rivas »

downhill wrote:MD is a guy bambi?
gawd you didnt know that ? :rotfl: :rotfl:
He is Bambi quite some time :nod: :rockin:
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Post by MadDoctor »

downhill wrote:MD is a guy bambi?
Next time I'm in the shower (should be a week or two) I'll check.
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