Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide

horsemen_ · Post by **horsemen_** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:56 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060105/od_ ... on_court_2

"I started this lawsuit because I wanted to deal the final blow against the Church, the bearer of obscurantism and regression," Cascioli told Reuters.

Cascioli says Righi, and by extension the whole Church, broke two Italian laws. The first is "Abuso di Credulita Popolare" (Abuse of Popular Belief) meant to protect people against being swindled or conned. The second crime, he says, is "Sostituzione di Persona", or impersonation.

I dont see how you realy could prove or disprove it

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:57 pm

To try that in Italy is really stupid.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:26 pm

I dont believe Jesus ever existed but i still think taking this whole thing to court is stupid lol

knightmare · Post by **knightmare** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:26 pm

eh, I see what is happening.. No one will be able to prove his existence, thus the ones introducing this garbage wins...

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:28 pm

knightmare wrote:eh, I see what is happening.. No one will be able to prove his existence, thus the ones introducing this garbage wins...

Unless by some odd chance the jusry has some very religous people, pretty hard to find in Italy though,

Prey521 · Post by **Prey521** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:42 pm

To dispute his existence is moronic. Now if you wanna go ahead and dispute his divinity, that's different.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:44 pm

Prey521 wrote:To dispute his existence is moronic. Now if you wanna go ahead and dispute his divinity, that's different.

not really...there is no evidence he ever existed physically tons of information that proves otherwise

there is no reliable source that ever mentions Jesus outside the bible..especially since bible was written 70 years after he supposedly died..lot can happen in 70 years

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:52 pm

Prey521 wrote:To dispute his existence is moronic. Now if you wanna go ahead and dispute his divinity, that's different.

Dinfining his divinity in a divine way defeats the discontentment within the derogatory conotaions that are detrimenal to deterge this democratic populus.

Izzo · Post by **Izzo** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:54 pm

YARDofSTUF wrote:Dinfining his divinity in a divine way defeats the discontentment within the derogatory conotaions that are detrimenal to deterge this democratic populus.

Spellcheck stat

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:58 pm

Izzo wrote:Spellcheck stat

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=sp ... gle+Search

Meggie · Post by **Meggie** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:03 pm

Augustus wrote:not really...there is no evidence he ever existed physically tons of information that proves otherwise

there is no reliable source that ever mentions Jesus outside the bible..especially since bible was written 70 years after he supposedly died..lot can happen in 70 years

a lot of religions recognize that jesus existed (weather he be a saint, or a teacher), christianity is just the only on that recognizes him as the son of god.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:11 pm

Meggie wrote:a lot of religions recognize that jesus existed (weather he be a saint, or a teacher), christianity is just the only on that recognizes him as the son of god.

oh i know...but doesnt mean i have to lol

to me jesus is no different then the greek-roman myths, back then greeks and romans believed Zeus and Dionysus who also was the son of God btw to be real as well just as one example.

Meggie · Post by **Meggie** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:15 pm

Augustus wrote:oh i know...but doesnt mean i have to lol

to me jesus is no different then the greek-roman myths, back then greeks and romans believed Zeus and Dionysus who also was the son of God btw to be real as well just as one example.

not trying to sway ur beleifs.. just saying that more than the bible claims that jesus once lived. thats all.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:17 pm

Meggie wrote:not trying to sway ur beleifs.. just saying that more than the bible claims that jesus once lived. thats all.

nothing outside the bible has any mention of jesus up until 3rd century or so.

or i should say nothing credible that wasnt forged by the church.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:20 pm

Gh will believe when he catches the holy ghost's image or voice on tape in a ghost hunt!

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:21 pm

YARDofSTUF wrote:Gh will believe when he catches the holy ghost's image or voice on tape in a ghost hunt!

i will only believe if god tells me so...until then..nada..

there were so many savior cults back in the first century...jsut pick and choose..LOL

Prey521 · Post by **Prey521** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:34 pm

Augustus wrote:i will only believe if god tells me so...

ROOFLES!

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:35 pm

Augustus wrote:i will only believe if god tells me so

But I have told you I'm real!

Jamie_R · Post by **Jamie_R** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:51 pm

YARDofSTUF wrote:Gh will believe the day he's standing in front of the pearly gates and can't get in because he didn't believe.

fixt.

sorry GH, I love ya bro, but I don't agree with ya on this one ...

Leatherneck · Post by **Leatherneck** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:57 pm

Augustus wrote:not really...there is no evidence he ever existed physically tons of information that proves otherwise

there is no reliable source that ever mentions Jesus outside the bible..especially since bible was written 70 years after he supposedly died..lot can happen in 70 years

Wrong. There is ample mention of Jesus outside the bible. What is reliable to you? There were no "Snopes" back then.

Spammy · Post by **Spammy** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:01 pm

Jamie_R wrote:fixt.

sorry GH, I love ya bro, but I don't agree with ya on this one ...

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Jamie_R again.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:05 pm

Jamie_R wrote:fixt.

sorry GH, I love ya bro, but I don't agree with ya on this one ...

Thats assuming those of us would want in

If infact heaven does exist

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:11 am

bigmo66 wrote:Wrong. There is ample mention of Jesus outside the bible. What is reliable to you? There were no "Snopes" back then.

Really? how come no roman historians from the first century ever mention jesus if he was such an important person?

there is actually an entire website dedicated to those who do not believe he exsited:

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/scholars.html

But really my favorite scholar who produces the most compelling argument to show Jesus never existed is Earl Doherty

http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.htm

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:29 am

This is the start of what the bible says will happen towards the end times. We will lose our rights to proclaim or teach of Jesus. Christians will be persecuted and it will be against the law to talk about such things. This is the start... The war on Jesus continues...

Meggie · Post by **Meggie** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:46 am

Augustus wrote:nothing outside the bible has any mention of jesus up until 3rd century or so.

or i should say nothing credible that wasnt forged by the church.

even jewish people believe in jesus (at least that he existed), so it must be written somewhere other then the bible

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:52 am

Meggie wrote:even jewish people believe in jesus (at least that he existed), so it must be written somewhere other then the bible

The first real mention that can be verified is Tacticus a Roman historian in 115 AD.

But he was not verifiying that Jesus existed just of the Christian people being persecuted by Nero

Some Jewish people do believe he did, while others don't. It all depends who you talk to

Read this goes into much more specific info that I wont go into here

http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/partone.htm

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:38 am

Augustus wrote:not really...there is no evidence he ever existed physically tons of information that proves otherwise

there is no reliable source that ever mentions Jesus outside the bible..especially since bible was written 70 years after he supposedly died..lot can happen in 70 years

Didn't the Koran mention Jesus? They believe he existed, just that he was not the true saviour.

Pie

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:44 am

Brent wrote:This is the start of what the bible says will happen towards the end times. We will lose our rights to proclaim or teach of Jesus. Christians will be persecuted and it will be against the law to talk about such things. This is the start... The war on Jesus continues...

Not that it will happen anytime soon, but with all these attempts at trying to force Christianity into state matters,on public property, forcing its way into Public schools through renamed Creationism attempts and wasting taxpayer dollars, and seeing how all these other countries are fighting and feuding whenever religion is involved in politics...I wouldn't blame them.

Pie

Leatherneck · Post by **Leatherneck** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:10 am

Augustus wrote:Really? how come no roman historians from the first century ever mention jesus if he was such an important person?

there is actually an entire website dedicated to those who do not believe he exsited:

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/scholars.html

But really my favorite scholar who produces the most compelling argument to show Jesus never existed is Earl Doherty

http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.htm

Do you think a couple of internet links are going to convince me that Jesus Christ never existed? If I were that weak, I'd be lost!

Why so much effort put into a subject? The fact that you have a "favorite" scholar that argues about Jesus "not existing" tells me you are searching, but I refuse to believe that you are only searching 1 way. You are front and center for every one of these threads and that says a lot about your state.

There are mentions of Jesus in the Roman courts. "Jesus of Nazareth" has also been found on physical, official Roman census scrolls. It's not a 1 way argument. Personal Testimony is also considered physical evidence as it still is in courts today. If you do some research, you will find the same arguments for existence about figures such as Shakespeare and others.

I am intelligent enough to realize that a case can be made both ways, but I also realize how people love a good conspiricy. Look at just 1 modern event in history (Kennedy's assasination) It has spawned countless different theories and many "swear" by their findings and yet it remains somewhat of a mystery. Heck people speculate about the deaths of Jim Morrison & Elvis! Now take arguably the most prolific figure in the history of mankind who claimed to be the Son of a God that many already question, add 2000 years and it's forever a target of skeptics, apologetics, believers and non-believers. How many more would believe if Jesus were a "hip artist" or even if he didn't convict people of sin? We are continually fascinated with conspiricies, mysteries, fantasy, death, other life forms and so on and just about every topic can and will be argued by those on both sides. I guess what it comes down to is what is in your heart coupled with what is in your brain.

mactoman · Post by **mactoman** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:25 am

I would agree with that. Wasn't it the romans that crusified him? and wasn't it the romans that was trying to drive out christianity?

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:32 am

bigmo66 wrote:Do you think a couple of internet links are going to convince me that Jesus Christ never existed? If I were that weak, I'd be lost!

Why so much effort put into a subject? The fact that you have a "favorite" scholar that argues about Jesus "not existing" tells me you are searching, but I refuse to believe that you are only searching 1 way. You are front and center for every one of these threads and that says a lot about your state.

There are mentions of Jesus in the Roman courts. "Jesus of Nazareth" has also been found on physical, official Roman census scrolls. It's not a 1 way argument. Personal Testimony is also considered physical evidence as it still is in courts today. If you do some research, you will find the same arguments for existence about figures such as Shakespeare and others.

I am intelligent enough to realize that a case can be made both ways, but I also realize how people love a good conspiricy. Look at just 1 modern event in history (Kennedy's assasination) It has spawned countless different theories and many "swear" by their findings and yet it remains somewhat of a mystery. Heck people speculate about the deaths of Jim Morrison & Elvis! Now take arguably the most prolific figure in the history of mankind who claimed to be the Son of a God that many already question, add 2000 years and it's forever a target of skeptics, apologetics, believers and non-believers. How many more would believe if Jesus were a "hip artist" or even if he didn't convict people of sin? We are continually fascinated with conspiricies, mysteries, fantasy, death, other life forms and so on and just about every topic can and will be argued by those on both sides. I guess what it comes down to is what is in your heart coupled with what is in your brain.

I just gave you a few examples. This knowledge is out there way before the internet even existed. I am sure you did not even read it and I dont expect many Christians to do so, nor am I trying to convince you, just trying to show why i believe otherwise.

There is absolute no mention of Jesus in the Roman courts, where did you get that info? Did you know the Romans never even kept track of all the people they crucified? You do know they crucified thousands.

There are so many similarities to greek-roman myths which is what causes doubt in the first place and that is why I want to know the truth and dont accept anything at face value. Just as Christians beleive Jesus existed, the Greeks believe many of their Pagan Gods existed in real form at one time or another. The only reason Paganism is not practiced in any form nowadays is because later on in the third and foruth century the Roman Church wiped paganism out and made it illegal to practice which Constantine an emporer of Rome started.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:41 am

thepieman wrote:Didn't the Koran mention Jesus? They believe he existed, just that he was not the true saviour.

Pie

Koran was written and I forgot the exact dates they traced it to but was around 700 AD...

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:43 am

At what point did Rome turn from trying to run the christ followers out and become so catholic?

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:44 am

Augustus wrote:Koran was written and I forgot the exact dates they traced it to but was around 700 AD...

I believe thats 600 AD

Lefty · Post by **Lefty** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:53 am

Jesus did exist, he was on my handball team in High School.

I wont get into the Jesus Christ issue especially in a discussion stemmed from an idiodic court case.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:03 am

YARDofSTUF wrote:At what point did Rome turn from trying to run the christ followers out and become so catholic?

Christians were mostly persecuted in the first century under Nero. Nero considered them a cult and blamed them for the Great Fire in 64 AD. Though some beleive he actually started the fire and needed a scapegoat, there is no proof either way who started it.

Up until the third century Christianity was still considered just a cult but was not persecuted and allowed to worship, the Romans just thought they were odd. It wasnt until Constantine the emporerr around 310 AD when constantine was trying to decide he needed one religion to unite Rome, because it was going through a turbelent times, he was trying to deicde between Christianity, Mithraism, and a few others, but what deicded supposedly in a battle he says he saw the Cross and he beleived it help him win and that convinced him to convert from paganism to christianity. At that time he and other emporers to follow forced people to convert Christianity.

If constantine had decided on Mithraism for example, christianity would probably not be existent and people who are Christian would be worshipping another God.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:06 am

Augustus wrote:Christians were mostly persecuted in the first century under Nero. Nero considered them a cult and blamed them for the Great Fire in 64 AD. Though some beleive he actually started the fire and needed a scapegoat, there is no proof either way who started it.

Up until the third century Christianity was still considered just a cult but was not persecuted and allowed to worship, the Romans just thought they were odd. It wasnt until Constantine around 310 AD when constantine was trying to decide he needed one religion to unite Rome, because it was going through a turbelent times, he was trying to deicde between Christianity, Mithraism, and a few others, but what deicded supposedly in a battle he says he saw the Cross and he beleived it help him win and that convinced him to convert from paganism to christianity. At that time he and other emporers to follow forced people to convert Christianity

Now instead of ****ing up Alexander they could have made a great movie about Rome as it switched!

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:09 am

YARDofSTUF wrote:Now instead of ****ing up Alexander they could have made a great movie about Rome as it switched!

LOL...well if HBO series continues that long they could

but i doubt it will hehe

Leatherneck · Post by **Leatherneck** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:10 am

Augustus wrote:I just gave you a few examples. This knowledge is out there way before the internet even existed. I am sure you did not even read it and I dont expect many Christians to do so, nor am I trying to convince you, just trying to show why i believe otherwise.

There is absolute no mention of Jesus in the Roman courts, where did you get that info? Did you know the Romans never even kept track of all the people they crucified? You do know they crucified thousands.

There are so many similarities to greek-roman myths which is what causes doubt in the first place and that is why I want to know the truth and dont accept anything at face value. Just as Christians beleive Jesus existed, the Greeks believe many of their Pagan Gods existed in real form at one time or another. The only reason Paganism is not practiced in any form nowadays is because later on in the third and foruth century the Roman Church wiped paganism out and made it illegal to practice which Constantine an emporer of Rome started.

Yes, I have read countless articles on the subject. I believe knowledge is good on both sides, and as I already stated, there is a good argument here. Due to time itself, there are many problems with reference. I found an article that states Jesus was in fact written in some Roman court documents and you have read to the contrary. This is no surprise as the time factor weighs in here also. You left out (or side-stepped) the human testimony argument? History can be described as oral testiment just as well as written testiment. It is not to be written off for selfish purpose.

I personally don't think the analogy between Jesus and Greek Gods is a good one. You can certainly make an argument, but they are vastly different in their purpose, validity (even from a mortal intelligence), meaning and staying power. Is Atlas still supporting the earth on his shoulders? We can see from the space shuttle that this isn't the case, but the argument for Jesus is a bit more complex, meaningful & intelligent.

I'm not arguing, just debating and coming from the other side. If we knew all the answers, we wouldn't need tylenol, alcohol or speedguide

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:34 am

well i posted this once and instead of writing it all over i will copy and paste from previous SG thread:

The Greek god Perseus, born of the virgin Danae and Zeus in a shower of gold:

Perseus, the son of Jove [Zeus] and her whom, in her prison, Juppiter’s [Zeus’] golden shower made fertile. — Metamorphoses 4.697

The Greek god Heracles (known to you under his Roman name, Hercules), who died in agony, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven:

Heracles, whom she had by Zeus…the poison of the hydra began to corrode his skin…and [he] tore off the tunic, which clung to his body, so that his flesh was torn away with it. In such a sad plight he was carried on shipboard to Trachis… [Heracles] proceeded to Mount Oeta, in the Trachinian territory, and there constructed a pyre, mounted it, and gave orders to kindle it. When no one would do so, Poeas, passing by to look for his flocks, set a light to it. On him Hercules bestowed his bow. While the pyre was burning, it is said that a cloud passed under Hercules and with a peal of thunder wafted him up to heaven. Thereafter he obtained immortality-- Apollodorus, 'The Library,' 11; IV, 8-VII, 7

The Greek god Asclepius, who made the blind see, raised men from the dead, died, and was resurrected:

"Asclepius was the son of Apollo [a god] and Coronis [a mortal woman]...he healed many sick whose lives had been despaired of, and... he brought back to life many who had died."—Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History, 4.7.1.1- 2

When Hippolytus was killed,...Asclepius raised him from the dead."—Pausanias, Corinth, Description of Greece, 1.27.5

Hermon of Thasus. His blindness was cured by Asclepius.— Inscriptiones Graecae, 4.1.121 - 122, Stele 2.22

"The youth [Asklepios] blasted by ancestral bolts [of Zeus] soars from earth…Phoebus [Apollon], you whined. He is a god; smile at your father, who, for your sake, undoes his prohibitions [and grants Asklepios life]-- Ovid, Fasti 6.735

…Hercules [Herakles], of Castor and Pollux [the Dioskouroi], of Aesculapius [Asklepios] ... And these benefactors were duly deemed divine, as being both supremely good and immortal, because their souls survived and enjoyed eternal life.—Cicero, Cicero, De Natura Deorum 2.24

The salvation god Mithra, who spilled eternal blood to save humanity, and left his followers with a sacred Eucharist:

You [Mithra] have saved us by the shedding of eternal blood.—Inscription, Santa Prisca Mithraeum in Rome

This rite [communion] the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For they set forth bread and a cup of water with certain incantations in their ceremonies of initiation—Justin Martyr, First Apology 68

The Egyptian god Osiris, who died, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven, where he will judge the living and the dead, forever and ever:

[the first examination]
They [the Gods of the Underworld] say, "Come forward.
They say, "Who are you,"
They say, "What is your name?"
"I am the he who is equipped under the flowers, the-dweller-in-the-moringa Osiris is my name."—Egyptian book of the Dead

the rites celebrated by night agree with the accounts of the dismemberment of Osiris and his resurrection and regenesis—Plutarch, Isis and Osiris 364

Isis, who resurrected Osiris and with him guarantees salvation to all who except Osiris as savior:

The keys of hell and the guarantee of salvation were in the hands of the goddess, and the initiation ceremony itself a kind of voluntary death and salvation through divine grace.—
Apuleius, Metamorphosis, Book 11, 21

And [the followers of Isis & Osiris said], "Be of good cheer, O initiates, for the god is saved, and we shall have salvation"— Firmicus Maternus, The Error of Pagan Religions, 22.1

The Greek god Dionysus, who turned water to wine, did miracles, died, and was resurrected:

One woman [bacchant]
struck her thyrsus against a rock and a fountain
of cool water came bubbling up. Another drove
her fennel in the ground, and where it struck the earth,
at the touch of god [Dionysus], a spring of wine poured out….— Euripides, The Bacchae, 707- 712

the fierce resentment of implacable Hera, the Titanes cunningly smeared their round faces with disguising chalk, and while he contemplated his changeling countenance reflected in a mirror they destroyed him with an infernal knife. There where his limbs had been cut piecemeal by the Titan steel, the end of his life was the beginning of a new life-- Nonnus, Dionysiaca 6.155

The devils, accordingly, when they heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and ...having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven--Justin Martyr, First Apology, 54

While many of these not exactly like Christianity you have to admit many similarities, plus they were around hundreds of years before Christianity existed. There are also hundreds more myths like it that were lost over time and we will never know the full details.