Declaration of Independence Banned @ Calif School

Prey521 · Post by **Prey521** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:26 pm

WTF?

http://www.reuters.com/printerFriendlyP ... ID=6911883

drdoug99 · Post by **drdoug99** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:30 pm

that principal sounds messed up....it's our history we are talking about...does she ban other teachers from using religous refrences???

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:31 pm

This is outrageous IMO

"It's a fact of American history that our founders were religious men, and to hide this fact from young fifth-graders in the name of political correctness is outrageous and shameful," said Williams' attorney, Terry Thompson.

"Williams wants to teach his students the true history of our country," he said. "There is nothing in the Establishment Clause (of the U.S. Constitution) that prohibits a teacher from showing students the Declaration of Independence."

We can't even teach history anymore?

"He hands out a lot of material and perhaps 5 to 10 percent refers to God and Christianity because that's what the founders wrote," said Thompson, a lawyer for the Alliance Defense Fund, which advocates for religious freedom. "The principal seems to be systematically censoring material that refers to Christianity and it is pure discrimination."

totally agreed, it is discrimination in every sense of the word

This is absolutely ridiculous

CiscoKid · Post by **CiscoKid** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:52 pm

I bet she advocates banning To Kill A mocking Bird and 1984

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:02 pm

I don't think the Principal is banning the entire school, I think its a matter of the way the teacher is actually using and presenting the artifacts. If he is using them as a tool to preach his religeous beliefs (Which is how it seems) then I am in full agreement with the principals stance. IF, however the principle is banning the entire school, if I have misinterpreted the article, then she is definitly in the wrong.

Pie

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:31 pm

thepieman wrote:I don't think the Principal is banning the entire school, I think its a matter of the way the teacher is actually using and presenting the artifacts. If he is using them as a tool to preach his religeous beliefs (Which is how it seems) then I am in full agreement with the principals stance. IF, however the principle is banning the entire school, if I have misinterpreted the article, then she is definitly in the wrong.

Pie

The title of this thread is pretty damn misleading.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:31 pm

Lets get the quality people out of cali, thats only like 300 or so, then ban cali from the US.

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:33 pm

Snuf wrote:The title of this thread is pretty damn misleading.

how is it misleading?

first line in the article

California teacher has been barred by his school from giving students documents from American history that refer to God -- including the Declaration of Independence.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:35 pm

i dont think there is anything wrong with the material, its the declaration of independance, everyone in this country should read it at least once.

Kinda funny tho that the article makes it sound like christians are a minority lol

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:36 pm

It depends on how the documents were used. If they were part of a history cirruculum without being used to say "The founding fathers were Christian" (a lie), then this whole suit is stupid. IF, however, the documents were being used to push the Christian Agenda, then the principal is in the right.

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:37 pm

Brent wrote:how is it misleading?

first line in the article

I think its a specific teacher that has been banned. Not the entire school.

Pie

Bouncer · Post by **Bouncer** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:38 pm

Couple of points:

1) We're hearing one side of a lawsuit. Treat every claim with a large grain of salt.

2) He was apparently using select fragments of the documents in question, not the entire documents. It's an important point. I could use select fragments of many famous documents and books to push an agenda all my own. So could you. So could he.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:42 pm

Bouncer wrote:Couple of points:

2) He was apparently using select fragments of the documents in question, not the entire documents. It's an important point. I could use select fragments of many famous documents and books to push an agenda all my own. So could you. So could he.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

where does it say he was doing that, show me

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:05 pm

Brent wrote:where does it say he was doing that, show me

Since the principles side decided not to comment then this whole article can be construed as a Press Release for the teachers side.

"He hands out a lot of material and perhaps 5 to 10 percent refers to God and Christianity because that's what the founders wrote," said Thompson, a lawyer for the Alliance Defense Fund, which advocates for religious freedom. "The principal seems to be systematically censoring material that refers to Christianity and it is pure discrimination."

In his words (The Alliance fund) the teacher prefers to hand out a lot of material geared towards Christianity. The people defending him are a Christain Advocacy group, so that pretty much explains it. These are 5th graders we are talking about here, and if the parents want to teach their children christian ideology then they should go to a Private school as should he. In essense since these kids are so young its the same as brainwashing them and maybe against their parents beliefs or faith.
If this is a matter of a teacher trying to push his religeous beliefs into a public school classroom then the principle had every right. Teach the kids history without the religeous overtones as it should be.

Pie

AceFireball · Post by **AceFireball** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:26 pm

Deport him to Iraq ASAP

Spammy · Post by **Spammy** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:41 pm

YARDofSTUF wrote:Lets get the quality people out of cali, thats only like 300 or so, then ban cali from the US.

LOL
ok?

Gandalf · Post by **Gandalf** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:45 pm

Man, thats the dumbest thing ever.

De Plano · Post by **De Plano** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:35 pm

Any teacher that pushes their religon in a public school should get canned. Immediately. Deport them to Iran and see how nice it is when religon gets pushed in school

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:39 pm

De Plano wrote:Any teacher that pushes their religon in a public school should get canned. Immediately. Deport them to Iran and see how nice it is when religon gets pushed in school

Who said he was pushing religion in that school?

I don't see it in that article.

De Plano · Post by **De Plano** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:55 pm

"Williams asserts in the lawsuit that since May he has been required to submit all of his lesson plans and supplemental handouts to Vidmar for approval, and that the principal will not permit him to use any that contain references to God or Christianity"

I assumed that meant he had been reprimanded before. I don't know of any other teachers that have to do that, so I figured there was something in the past that made her feel she had to suprevise him.

You don't think he was? You think she just decided that since the Constitution mentions God she just decidded it can't be mentioned? That is all there is to it?

Prey521 · Post by **Prey521** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:56 pm

I am surprised actually, since most teachers are liberal hippies. We need more Christian teachers in our public school system.

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:12 pm

De Plano wrote:You don't think he was? You think she just decided that since the Constitution mentions God she just decidded it can't be mentioned? That is all there is to it?

That's all the information we have right now, I'm not going to start guessing and assuming things.

You could be wrong making guesses and accusations.

So I'm going on the info provided right now.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:17 pm

Prey521 wrote:I am surprised actually, since most teachers are liberal hippies. We need more Christian teachers in our public school system.

the christian ones probably go to all those chirstian schools

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:20 pm

YARDofSTUF wrote:the christian ones probably go to all those chirstian schools

Is that like saying Christian teachers shouldn't teach at public schools?

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:22 pm

Prey521 wrote:I am surprised actually, since most teachers are liberal hippies. We need more Christian teachers in our public school system.

Teachers should be teaching about facts, not fiction.

eg:
Teaching there is a bible is fact, the bible does exist. That's ok.

Teaching about a God is fiction and should be taught as such.
At the very least it should be explained there is no hard proof, and the students should be taught to make up their own minds.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:32 pm

Brent wrote:Is that like saying Christian teachers shouldn't teach at public schools?

No its my reason why prey seems to find all the liberals and hippies in public schools.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:34 pm

Norm wrote:Teachers should be teaching about facts, not fiction.

eg:
Teaching there is a bible is fact, the bible does exist. That's ok.

Teaching about a God is fiction and should be taught as such.
At the very least it should be explained there is no hard proof, and the students should be taught to make up their own minds.

Teachers shouldnt have to teach that there is a bible, Kids should learn that very early on.

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:36 pm

IMO there should be a religion class in public schools, teaching about all the religions of the world, the more knowledgeable you are, the better off you will be in the world!

You can't deny religion exists in the world, it is a big part of this world, we should be as informed as we can be, just like any subject, math, science, history, etc...

De Plano · Post by **De Plano** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:39 pm

Brent wrote:That's all the information we have right now, I'm not going to start guessing and assuming things.

You could be wrong making guesses and accusations.

So I'm going on the info provided right now.

That is cool. As was mentioned that is all one sided since the princible isn't talking about it right now. So in a way you are assuming that the whole of the subject is talked about in that article.

I admit I don't know what is going on with that situation. That does not have much to do with me saying that teachers in public schools should not be pushing religon though. My comment was a bit off track, but it wouldn't be the first thread jack on this site. I just get the feeling that people are reading this without thinking that there is any more to the story then what is printed.

I shall remember to make sure we are both talking about facts and not assumptions in the future though Brent

Have fun!

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:41 pm

Brent wrote:IMO there should be a religion class in public schools, teaching about all the religions of the world, the more knowledgeable you are, the better off you will be in the world!

You can't deny religion exists in the world, it is a big part of this world, we should be as informed as we can be, just like any subject, math, science, history, etc...

I agree, teach what we know. Teach about all religions, and all facts. Give students all the knowledge accumulated over the centuries.

But don't allow teachers to teach a 'belief' of their own as if it is actual fact.

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:44 pm

YARDofSTUF wrote:Teachers shouldnt have to teach that there is a bible, Kids should learn that very early on.

How young is "early on"
Kids start school around the age of 4 here. Isn't that early enough?

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:09 am

Brent wrote:IMO there should be a religion class in public schools, teaching about all the religions of the world, the more knowledgeable you are, the better off you will be in the world!

You can't deny religion exists in the world, it is a big part of this world, we should be as informed as we can be, just like any subject, math, science, history, etc...

Why should I pay taxes for that. I sent my kid to catechism classes for First Holy Communion and confirmation. Maybe where you live down in Texas something like that would work but here in a Big City where we have dozens of Faiths ranging from Jehovahs Witness to Buddhists its unrealistic and it would waste valuable time , when the kids could be getting a real education in already over-crowded schools.
Ok Im curious...if you had your way, then what religeon should be taught and which bible should be used?

Pie

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:13 am

thepieman wrote:Why should I pay taxes for that. I sent my kid to catechism classes for First Holy Communion and confirmation. Maybe where you live down in Texas something like that would work but here in a Big City where we have dozens of Faiths ranging from Jehovahs Witness to Buddhists its unrealistic and it would waste valuable time , when the kids could be getting a real education in already over-crowded schools.
Ok Im curious...if you had your way, then what religeon should be taught and which bible should be used?

Pie

i'll repost what i posted and highlight the part that you seemed to missed

IMO there should be a religion class in public schools, teaching about all the religions of the world, the more knowledgeable you are, the better off you will be in the world!

You can't deny religion exists in the world, it is a big part of this world, we should be as informed as we can be, just like any subject, math, science, history, etc...

IMO it should be a regular course curriculum like Match, Science, History, etc...

Religion exists in this world, you can't deny its existence

Do you want to be ignorant of it? Or do you want to be informed?

School is about learning, what's wrong with learning about the religions of this world and the history of them and the impact of them on historical events?

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:30 am

Brent wrote:i'll repost what i posted and highlight the part that you seemed to missed

IMO it should be a regular course cariculum like Match, Science, History, etc...

Religion exists in this world, you can't deny its existance

Do you want to be ignorant of it? Or do you want to be informed?

I don't understand , why I would want my children to learn about that in school. As much as I've needed to know in regards to Hari Krishnas, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, Thuggi's, Rat Worshippers, Snake Worshippers, Seventh Day Adventists, Scientologists , Christians who talk in tongues, worship with snakes, Lutherans, Methodists , Calvinists, Jews, Malachites, Maronites, Greek Orthodox, Middle Eastern orthodox, Mormons , Yemenese Jews, Syrian Jews and all of the other Religeons and their offshoots I have learned from either people that are of that religeon, The Internet, On Cable Learning channels and other various ways. These are not absolutely necessary for life's later uses or for getting into a good college. Some are part of history and will be learned in school anyway and others won't be. There are just too many religeons to go thru. When you have your own kids and you send them to school maybe your way of thinking will change. These are maybe things you can discover with your child at home and teach them as they grow older. First we need to make the kids in the schools that we have literate and functional before we go teaching them about the 1000's of religeons that are available out there.

Pie

AceFireball · Post by **AceFireball** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:33 am

Schools teach about religions of the world when they talk about the regions, yet the metion of christianity is quickly scilenced

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:58 am

AceFireball wrote:Schools teach about religions of the world when they talk about the regions, yet the metion of christianity is quickly scilenced

If you are talking about Historical Religeons well they played a big part in the forming of Civilization over the past thousand years, if you are referring to a teacher introducing his modern day Christian ideas (PTL, 700 club, Tilton, Baker etc etc) no, these religeons were formed not even a 100years ago and are not part of our Countries history during the time of The Declaration of Independence or any historical documents of that time period. Besides that, talking about Martin Luther nailing his demands to a church door , or King Henry forming his own Church just so he could get a divorce , or the Catholic Crusades in school is hardly attemtping to push religeon into a childs head. What you say is being silenced would be.

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:03 am

thepieman wrote:If you are talking about Historical Religeons well they played a big part in the forming of Civilization over the past thousand years, if you are referring to a teacher introducing his modern day Christian ideas (PTL, 700 club, Tilton, Baker etc etc) no, these religeons were formed not even a 100years ago and are not part of our Countries history during the time of The Declaration of Independence or any historical documents of that time period.

Um, the bible was written 2000 years ago when Jesus walked this Earth, I'd say that's a little longer than 100 years.

See, this is why religion needs to be taught in school, so at least people get their facts straight

De Plano · Post by **De Plano** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:18 am

AceFireball wrote:Schools teach about religions of the world when they talk about the regions, yet the metion of christianity is quickly scilenced

Really? I don't remember being taught anything other than some of the Greek, Roman, and Norse gods. I don't remember being taught Shinto even during discussions about WWII, where it seems it would have some logical reason to be discussed. I don't remember being taught about Hinduism learning about India, nor Buddhism while talking about China despite the backlash from the Cultural Revolution.

What religons were you taught about? I can't think of any religons that were discussed that were currently practiced religons. Maybe there is a large Temple of Oden somewhere in town, but I am not sure of where it is.

Bouncer · Post by **Bouncer** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:57 am

Brent wrote:where does it say he was doing that, show me

"Among the materials she has rejected, according to Williams, are excerpts from the Declaration of Independence, George Washington's journal, John Adams' diary, Samuel Adams' "The Rights of the Colonists" and William Penn's "The Frame of Government of Pennsylvania."

Excerpts, as in, bits and pieces, and quite possibly taken out of context or used to support a point of view that the authors never intended. If you want to study the whole of the documents, that's fine, but if you're studying only bits of it, that's cause for concern. WHY, for instance, are you studying bits B, F, H, and L, but not the bits that surround them and create context?

It's worth remembering that this teacher has had to submit ALL his lesson plans, because apparently there was real concern about his violating school board policies and possibly state law.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:58 am

De Plano wrote:Really? I don't remember being taught anything other than some of the Greek, Roman, and Norse gods. I don't remember being taught Shinto even during discussions about WWII, where it seems it would have some logical reason to be discussed. I don't remember being taught about Hinduism learning about India, nor Buddhism while talking about China despite the backlash from the Cultural Revolution.

What religons were you taught about? I can't think of any religons that were discussed that were currently practiced religons. Maybe there is a large Temple of Oden somewhere in town, but I am not sure of where it is.

But see I think that stuff is important to learn about, school is the perfect place for it.