House Approves Flag-Burning Amendment

Izzo · Post by **Izzo** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:49 am

[quote="Ken"]Have you guys forgotten what you have to do to our flag if it touches the ground?...

Do you guys know the *only* proper way to dispose of an American flag?

How easily we forget...

How blind we can become... manipulated...

We allow ourselves to become narrowminded, and often can only focus on one viewpoint... I could see the forest, ...if the trees didn't block my view... Just as 9/11, we sacrifice much for mere possibilities...
Be careful, ...it is summer, you may get struck by lightning... It *could* happen, so don't go outside...

Why don't we just make a law for everything? Oh, wait! A law doesn't mean that it is right...,...fair...,...or...just, ...it merely means that it is the law... ]

yes, the only proper way to dispose of a flag is to burn it ...

Izzo · Post by **Izzo** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:50 am

Roody wrote:Ive heard that quote before, but it slips my mind on who said it Izzo?

It's from the movie The American President.

Michael Douglas aka President Andrew Shepherd

Roody · Post by **Roody** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:52 am

Izzo wrote:It's from the movie The American President.

Michael Douglas aka President Andrew Shepherd

ahh yes. I love that film you would have thought I would have remembered that. DOH!

Thanks Izzo.

Izzo · Post by **Izzo** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:54 am

Roody wrote:ahh yes. I love that film you would have thought I would have remembered that. DOH!

Thanks Izzo.

Movie or not it's a fantastic quote and like Zilog said ...it's dead on 100%

Bouncer · Post by **Bouncer** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:03 am

Joint Chiefs of Staff wrote:De Plano I'm a veteran and I might also add that I like you before I say this.

Freedom of speech, eh? Okay this gives me the freedom to go right up to your mother, girlfriend or wife and say, "**** you... *****!"

What are you going to do? Beat my ass to a pulp would be a logically response.

To a Vet it's the same damn thing. Don't **** with the flag....this we'll defend.

Then you have no idea what you're fighting for.

Is it this?

http://2002ties.com/ties/flags/thumbs/eagles-tie.jpg

or maybe you were fighting for this?

Or perhaps it was this..

http://www.soark.com/images/shorts_flag_usa.jpg

Or perhaps this...

http://store1.yimg.com/I/yhst-65361177377116_1849_278445

The point is simple. You weren't defending the flag, but rather the ideals for which it stands. All a flag burning amendment does is restrict speech, particularly political speech (Flag burning, after all, isn't either an advertising or entertainment statement).

Thus depriving the people of what you put your life on the line to defend. Making the lives lost and damaged, a complete waste.

You should fight till you bleed for the right to express yourself politically however the hell you want. Including burning the flag every second tuesday in November if you want. Because if you do not, you will lose that right. And once lost, it can only be regained through violence.

Do not let others convince you you are protecting the flag. You are not. All you are doing is silencing your own voice. A voice millions of americans have died to protect.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

Izzo · Post by **Izzo** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:07 am

Okay ...I understand the need to prove a point but

this is uncalled for

Bouncer · Post by **Bouncer** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:26 am

Heh, actually I think it made my point more eloquently than I could've. Hell you can't even burn those because that would be desecrating the flag. As if giant 42 foot flags flying from every sleazy car dealership in this country weren't a true desecration.

But anyways, it's the atomic wedgie of flag protection and makes the point I was going for very well. Plus I just got thumbs up PM's and rep points from most of the women here. So there's that.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:27 am

I guess hanging the flag upside-down is next...then, I'll have to retrieve my diary from Elsa in the lion's den.

To ape the Limbaugh line, this is "symbolism over substance."

Too many people worrying about protecting the flag without defending for that which it stands. Ah well. I guess NewsMax will move some more t-shirts and mugs.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:28 am

First of all, Bouncer....DEAD ON!!!!!!!!

Secondly, if this passes I guess I have to revert to burning Bibles.

Lastly....WTF, is this how we arm my fellow brothers in arms over in OIF/OEF? Is this how we come up with funds to armor humvees? Is this the best Congress can do to arm our troops with body armor?

Oh yeah...funny how Flag Burning has become so prominent in our country that it requires the UTMOST URGENCY in CONGRESSIONAL ACTION!!!!! Yet....our own soldiers continue to BUY THEIR OWN BODY ARMOR so they can try to come home alive.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-03-26-body-armor_x.htm

Great...just friggin great folks.

When was the last time you saw a flag burning live? It amazes me how flag burning gets people all worked up yet dead soldiers due to a lack of government INACTION doesn't even bother folks.

So let's mail a letter to each widow, mother, father, etc, of a lost son/daughter and tell them that Congress was too busy spending money on printing costs associated with the formation of this bogus legislation when they could have been providing the funds to arm our troops.

Oh yeah....I'm an active duty military member, 15 years, teach anti-terrorism to our folks going over in the box.

--out!

Shinobi · Post by **Shinobi** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:38 am

Burke wrote:I guess hanging the flag upside-down is next...

That just means the country is in distress.

To me, that is not the same as burning it .

Public Law 829 (77th Congress) Sec. 4(a) :
"The flag should never be displayed with the union down
SAVE AS A SIGNAL OF DIRE DISTRESS"

Be happy today
Shinobi

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:43 am

Shinobi wrote:That just means the country is in distress.
To me, that is not the same as burning it .

Public Law 829 (77th Congress) Sec. 4(a) :
"The flag should never be displayed with the union down
SAVE AS A SIGNAL OF DIRE DISTRESS"

Be happy today
Shinobi

Well, isn't it the government's job to TELL me when I should consider something requires a signal of dire distress?

cybotron r_9 · Post by **cybotron r_9** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:59 am

Ken wrote:Have you guys forgotten what you have to do to our flag if it touches the ground?...

not sure what you're getting at here but maybe not what you're thinking you have to do.

My flag touched the ground. Do I need to destroy it?
No. You should, of course, try to avoid having the flag touch the ground. But if it does, you should correct the situation immediately. If the flag has been dirtied, you should clean it by hand with a mild soap solution and dry it well before returning it to use.

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:01 am

The U.S. flag code is ridiculous. We don't even treat our fellow humans as well as we're supposed to treat a flag.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:24 am

cybotron r_9 wrote:not sure what you're getting at here but maybe not what you're thinking you have to do.

My flag touched the ground. Do I need to destroy it?
No. You should, of course, try to avoid having the flag touch the ground. But if it does, you should correct the situation immediately. If the flag has been dirtied, you should clean it by hand with a mild soap solution and dry it well before returning it to use.

Way back when I was in elementary school, getting close to 40 years ago, I was a cub scout, safety patrol, and some other things, of which I was in charge of the flag. Raising, lowering and folding...
The first thing that I was told was the flag was *never* to touch the ground... And if it did, it was to be burned...
Of course, we said the Pledge of Allegiance and had a moment of silence afterwards...

I do not believe that a moment of silence is allowed anymore, so I guess times have changed... Respect such as that, does not appear to be the rule anymore...

And, just for the record, the flag that I cared for, NEVER touched the ground...

cybotron r_9 · Post by **cybotron r_9** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:34 am

[quote="Ken"]Way back when I was in elementary school, getting close to 40 years ago, I was a cub scout, safety patrol, and some other things, of which I was in charge of the flag. Raising, lowering and folding...
The first thing that I was told was the flag was *never* to touch the ground... And if it did, it was to be burned...
Of course, we said the Pledge of Allegiance and had a moment of silence afterwards... ]

hey Ken, that's what I thought was proper also but I guess that's not the case. Learn something new every day, eh.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:56 am

cybotron r_9 wrote:hey Ken, that's what I thought was proper also but I guess that's not the case. Learn something new every day, eh.

Yes, I guess... As I said, times have changed and respect is nothing like it once was... Respect belongs to a dying breed...

If an American flag that was under my control, did touch the ground today, you damn right, I would burn it...

But that is just me...

Spammy · Post by **Spammy** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:00 pm

[quote="Ken"]Yes, I guess... As I said, times have changed and respect is nothing like it once was... Respect belongs to a dying breed...

If an American flag that was under my control, did touch the ground today, you damn right, I would burn it... ]

Me 2

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:03 pm

To add to this topic, what really pisses me off is to see the ignorance involving the flag...

The law in the United States says that no flag shall fly higher than the American flag on US soil. I get pissed at so many US airports that fly all of the flags at equal height... I have gave numerous comments at the comment box, especially at Miami International, that have them all at the same height... That is disrespect...

Laws mean nothing unless they are enforced...

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:34 pm

[quote="Ken"].
The first thing that I was told was the flag was *never* to touch the ground... And if it did, it was to be burned...
Of course, we said the Pledge of Allegiance and had a moment of silence afterwards... ]

Yup, and never flown unlit at night, not in the rain, lotsa rules that people seem to have forgotten or don't want to waste their time trying to learn how to respect.

If people hate this country so much as to burn the flag in defiance of it, my question to them is "Who the hell is holding a gun to your head forcing you to live here...if you hate it so much...GET OUT, GET THE HECK OUT!"

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:44 pm

YeOldeStonecat wrote:If people hate this country so much as to burn the flag in defiance of it, my question to them is "Who the hell is holding a gun to your head forcing you to live here...if you hate it so much...GET OUT, GET THE HECK OUT!"

If you think that everyone burning the flag hates the country, then you're dead wrong. Perhaps, YOSC, some people just want to see the country move in a new direction, but don't see any other form of protest as having any effect. Granted that flag burning doesn't do anything good, just pisses most people off, but it's still a freedom of expression that's protected by the First Amendment.

The Bill of Rights isn't just a document that we can use when it's "convenient". I hate flag burning as much as you do. It makes me sick because people are burning the flag, because they're showing that they hate some of the ideals behind it. Some of the ideals that do make America great. But you know what, YOSC? One of those ideals IS the ideal that all speech, not just politically correct or nice speech, is protected.

Passing this amendment is doing worse than burning a flag ever could.

mountainman · Post by **mountainman** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:48 pm

If the flag represents freedom, our values, our country and so on... if you burn the flag, does that represent burning those things?

:shrug:

Izzo · Post by **Izzo** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:59 pm

again....

America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You've got to want it bad, because it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say, "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil who is standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the 'land of the free'? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the 'land of the free'.

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:12 pm

Paft wrote:If you think that everyone burning the flag hates the country, then you're dead wrong. Perhaps, YOSC, some people just want to see the country move in a new direction, but don't see any other form of protest as having any effect. Granted that flag burning doesn't do anything good, just pisses most people off, but it's still a freedom of expression that's protected by the First Amendment.

The Bill of Rights isn't just a document that we can use when it's "convenient". I hate flag burning as much as you do. It makes me sick because people are burning the flag, because they're showing that they hate some of the ideals behind it. Some of the ideals that do make America great. But you know what, YOSC? One of those ideals IS the ideal that all speech, not just politically correct or nice speech, is protected.

Passing this amendment is doing worse than burning a flag ever could.

Maybe not 100%, but certainly the gross majority.

IMO some people try to abuse that "priviledge" beyond what it was originally intended for. There will always be people who try to push the limits, when given an inch they'll try to take a mile.

You're never ever ever going to make 100% of people happy. Hence there will always be those who don't/refuse, or are incapable of conforming with the majority. And in some cases they just have to go against the grain for no other reason than they can.

I find it a rediculous (I guess I'm in a small crowd with this line of thought)....that I would move to another country....then start protesting their politcal and religious ways...and demanding what I'd concoct as "reform".

De Plano · Post by **De Plano** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:17 pm

Along the lines of burning a flag that has touched the ground couldn't some people who burn the flag think that the government has desecrated the flag and they are disposing of it in a respectful manner?

The people who burn the flag want change. Why should they get out because you think it is disrespectful? Maybe some of the folks who think that should move and make a country that worships a flag more than the ideals it represents.

I keep going back to it but since no one has addressed it yet..., what about the Klan marching? Does that not make your blood boil?

Oh and I do have kin that came over on the Mayflower and fought in the Revolution to address one of YOSC points

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:52 pm

De Plano wrote:Along the lines of burning a flag that has touched the ground couldn't some people who burn the flag think that the government has desecrated the flag and they are disposing of it in a respectful manner?

I'd say that most people view the flag to be a representation of a country and all that is about it. I can see what you're trying to say, but I'd say it's a stretch, I'd say that the majority of protesting flag burners are not intending on disposing of it in a respectful manner, rather, as a means of defiance and disgust with the country.

De Plano wrote:The people who burn the flag want change. Why should they get out because you think it is disrespectful? Maybe some of the folks who think that should move and make a country that worships a flag more than the ideals it represents.

So the USA hating 3% of the country thinks 97% of USA loving respectfull people should leave? <percentages are fictituous, but I'm sure it's quite a case of minority versus majority>

De Plano wrote:I keep going back to it but since no one has addressed it yet..., what about the Klan marching? Does that not make your blood boil?

Yes it does, and it's a prime example of my opinion of freedom of speech being taken too far. This is such a thing as "over the edge", lines that should not be crossed.

De Plano wrote:Oh and I do have kin that came over on the Mayflower and fought in the Revolution to address one of YOSC points

I don't recall making any point about the Revolution or any pissing contest of whose family line here has the oldest roots.

tao_jones · Post by **tao_jones** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:00 pm

While I do hate to see people burning of the flag, I think laws like this go against the 1st amend and move us to more of a Police State. Free speech is just that free speech...it doesnt mean you have to like what you hear but people have a right to say it.

Spammy · Post by **Spammy** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:17 pm

tao_jones wrote:While I do hate to see people burning of the flag, I think laws like this go against the 1st amend and move us to more of a Police State. Free speech is just that free speech...it doesnt mean you have to like what you hear but people have a right to say it.

Enuff Said

cybotron r_9 · Post by **cybotron r_9** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:26 pm

Spammy wrote:Enuff Said

who says!

De Plano · Post by **De Plano** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:29 pm

YeOldeStonecat wrote:
I find it a rediculous (I guess I'm in a small crowd with this line of thought)....that I would move to another country....then start protesting their politcal and religious ways...and demanding what I'd concoct as "reform".

I misinterped this I think.

What do you mean by this though?

"I'd say that most people view the flag to be a representation of a country and all that is about it. I can see what you're trying to say, but I'd say it's a stretch, I'd say that the majority of protesting flag burners are not intending on disposing of it in a respectful manner, rather, as a means of defiance and disgust with the country."
So they are saying something about the country? Free speech. I disagree with what they say but in a land that is supposed to have free speech they should be allowed to say it. I HIGHLY disagree with the Klans point of view but they should be allowed to say it as long as they do not promote violence. It looks like we should agree to disagree with that issue though, since I interpted what you said as the fact that they should not be allowed to say it

Let me know if I am wrong about that

But let me down a few beers and then we can have a proper contest (busts out step ladder for added couple of feet)

Can't be on a boat though, your sea legs would be an unfair advantage, and I might pee all over myself, or fall overboard with my pants around my ankles. That would make it too hard to swim

Spammy · Post by **Spammy** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:30 pm

cybotron r_9 wrote:who says!

Me

cybotron r_9 · Post by **cybotron r_9** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:32 pm

Spammy wrote:Me

k tough guy

Spammy · Post by **Spammy** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:33 pm

cybotron r_9 wrote:k tough guy

Me tough no.

Me agree with tao yes

So shut up or im going to kick your arse

cybotron r_9 · Post by **cybotron r_9** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:39 pm

Spammy wrote:Me tough no.

Me agree with tao yes

So shut up or im going to kick your arse

Spammy · Post by **Spammy** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:44 pm

cybotron r_9 wrote:

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:05 pm

De Plano wrote: Free speech. I disagree with what they say but in a land that is supposed to have free speech they should be allowed to say it. I HIGHLY disagree with the Klans point of view but they should be allowed to say it as long as they do not promote violence. It looks like we should agree to disagree with that issue though, since I interpted what you said as the fact that they should not be allowed to say it Let me know if I am wrong about that

It's a gray area IMO, which is "there should be limits to what free speech is." Klan stuff like that, we all know it's had a history of leading to violence and other bad stuff, my view would be to nip it in the bud. There is absolutely no good that can become of it, so why let it start at all.

What if you stand out on a city street on a podium with a bullhorn and yell obscenities at people walking by? How long would you last until taken away and fined? Better yet...who would defend this person with an "They're just exorcising their freedom of speech!" Did they not cross some line? If yes...then we agree that there is a line that has been crossed, and now the issue is "OK, who draws where that line is."

De Plano wrote:with my pants around my ankles.

MadDoc around?

hayc59 · Post by **hayc59** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:14 pm

I just love a great debate!
Burning they 'flag' because it touched the ground
is one thing and in the rules of flag etiquette.
Burning because someone is pissed of at something
the 'gov' did or you dont like this country is just plain
wrong! You dont love America, there is a whole lot
of other places you can go....

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:31 pm

hayc59 wrote:I just love a great debate!
Burning they 'flag' because it touched the ground
is one thing and in the rules of flag etiquette.
Burning because someone is pissed of at something
the 'gov' did or you dont like this country is just plain
wrong! You dont love America, there is a whole lot
of other places you can go....

hayc59....are you not giving an opinion? A freedom of speech? Go somewhere else? I can remember the turmoil of the Vietnam days. It wasn't unusual to see a flag burning on the national news. Those people were demonstrating and trying to evoke an emotion. I can't remember seeing one since then. Anyway...back to that emotion......why do we let something like that control us to the point of pushing back our freedoms to that of colonial times?

IMOH...it's too much to do about nothing and IMHO, I happen to think that the House has lost their minds. I think we as Americans, need to vote the whole bunch out. Reps and Dems alike. Then take a good look at the Senate.

You'd think that in this day and age, there'd be better things to do than to thump your chest and write laws that are designed to promote a political bias.

hayc59 · Post by **hayc59** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:49 pm

downhill wrote:hayc59....are you not giving an opinion? A freedom of speech? Go somewhere else? I can remember the turmoil of the Vietnam days. It wasn't unusual to see a flag burning on the national news. Those people were demonstrating and trying to evoke an emotion. I can't remember seeing one since then. Anyway...back to that emotion......why do we let something like that control us to the point of pushing back our freedoms to that of colonial times?

IMOH...it's too much to do about nothing and IMHO, I happen to think that the House has lost their minds. I think we as Americans, need to vote the whole bunch out. Reps and Dems alike. Then take a good look at the Senate.

You'd think that in this day and age, there'd be better things to do than to thump your chest and write laws that are designed to promote a political bias.

@downhill
Oh I remember those day's.
You are correct its nice to be able to speak our minds when and where and how, its just not right to burn something that means so much to so many folks. I was givin my fathers flag at his funeral last year by a wonderful man dressed as sharp as could be that flew in from washington[honor guard for the United States Air Force] My dad spent 39 years retired col. in the Air Force.. Just cant see myself burning that wonderful peice of cloth because I am pissed off at a certain a-hole in congress when I know that 'Flag' has collected so much blood for so many men and women over such a long time.
Just aint right.

Bouncer · Post by **Bouncer** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:01 pm

Every person who is espousing the "If you want to burn the flag then you must hate the country and should leave" line of reasoning is wrong.

They are also missing the point. At one time the words of Martin Luther King were considered incindiary and frightful and downright dangerous. Yet today we know him as a hero of the civil rights movement. That's the point. That political speech, so long as it does not advocate the *violent* overthrow of the government absolutely must be permitted. Burning the symbol of our gov't is one such method of advocacy. To suppress that, is to begin down the road to the suppression of all "dangerous and divisive" speech. Speech which by it's VERY nature challenges the status quo.

Speech which begins with the phrase: "I have a dream..."

That is the point. You can like or hate that speech, but you cannot remain the United States of America, if you do not tolerate it.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

BroncoSport · Post by **BroncoSport** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:03 pm

It really surprises me, these days, on what people think the "freedom of speech" should include. Last time I looked speech doesn't contain some mysterious fuel that ignites instantly on a flag. Exactly what part of my freedom of speech would this restrain??? This amendment would not stop anyone’s right to speak up about the things that they are against.

Personally I could care less either way if this passes. I will not EVER burn a United States flag nor would I ever permit it to be done in my presence. And just for the record, I do mean with bodily harm.

So when I think of flag burning I think instantly of the TV images of these “armpits of the world” that have hordes of backwards uncivilized mobs jumping up and down screaming death to America, our leaders, our people, burning our flag and oh yeah praise be to Allah.

So when our own citizens to the same practice of flag burning, they are in essence saying the EXACT same thing, except for the Allah part because I believe most flag burners are most likely Atheist.

If 99.9% of the citizens realize that the flag represents all that we, as a country, have fought and died for (for ourselves and other countries); then my solution for the action of flag burning is permanent exile from our country. They really don’t want to be here. They complain about the USA continually and would rather change the USA into their idea of a perfect country than except the fact that the majority doesn't agree with their hatred of the USA.

By acting in this fashion they demonstrate to the whole world their ignorance and do nothing but feed fuel to the people who would hate us NO MATTER WHAT WE DO. Sound almost like a traitor.....hmmmm.