Universal Healthcare: How to git'r done for the US

[BroncoSport]

At what point does personal responsibility step in? I personally am married with two teenagers, and our combined income is well under $80k a year. I have insurance through my employer (who by the way I have been with for 14 years, not because I love it but because of the so so wages and BENIFITS). I have made EVERY employment decision ( as an adult) based on wages, health insurance availability and retirement plans. Now I pay approx $150 per mo for full HMO and a crappy dental package. And my daughters braces just cost me $5700. I SAVED FOR THIS, instead of wasting the income tax refund and wasting extra after the pay check. I live within my means. If there is something (expensive) that I want I either save, or work a 2nd or 3rd job to provide it. I am probally the only one in my circle of friends, who work all the time. Not because I HAVE too, but because I want the bigger better things and I and only I can try to guarantee having something at retirement time. And I will do everything possible to not depend on a single dollar of gov assisance. (btw Im 39 and have worked continually since I was 12 (part time till 18) and have proudly NEVER EVER DRAWN A DIME OF UNEMPLOYMENT and I do not even have a college degree) Although I am starting back to school next month to finish my Bachelors to try to get something even better. No grants, just a new $15,000 student loan. I pay my way.

Now to the point.. if I wasnt able to get health insurance at a reasonable rate, I WOULDNT WORK HERE. There are thousands of larger companies out there who offer affordable health care plans to their people. If you are not working for a company that provides that benifit..... LEAVE. Stop trying to force other people (tax payers) to pick up your tab. Provide for yourself, get off the teet.

It, to me, ALL revolves around that personal responsiblity issue. Most people in this country that complain about how unfair things are are incapible of fending for themselves 100%. For example, say a great catastope happened where the USA lost all communications, power, just the nuclear winter Mad Max, worse case deal... You know similar to Y2K!, how many could survive and help their family not only survive but flourish.

As far as the univeral health care possibility, man thats hard to swallow. I think that the USA has the greatest possible care on the planet, BUT.... there are a lot of problems. A couple problems I see: a lot of the "uninsured" people in the USA are uninsured by choice (young and healthy and dont want to spend the money on something they probally wont need and could spend on something they really want, iphone ...tickets to Batman ect), 12-25 million illegal aliens (who dont contribute to the income tax fund and having babies here that receive instant citizenship at birth even though the parents arent legal and now qualitfy for welfare), lawsuits from malpractice cases with astonomical awards (Bubba gets killed by a forklift accident and the jury awards 20 million, for a person who would never earned that much in thier lifetime). .... I could get a whole thread on these abulance chasers.

I think it all boils down to finding a way to let the private market reduce the price of our services in the health care system. Reward the doctors not the insurance companies and definitely not the lazy good for nothings that are a scurge on our society. Get the gov out of it. The only thing the gov runs even halfway decent is the military and thats giving them a lot of credit. Think about it, what do they do better than the private sector? Mail delivery.. nope, they even managed to screw up their own monopoly!

rant over.....

[JawZ]

Nothing bank wise failed with Europe, and we blatantly ended trade with them. Nothing 'failed' short of our congresses attempt to help the depressions by halting trade with foreign competitors.

And of course I gave you a simple description of its causes. Its called hitting the major points. I'm not gonna write a history book to prove a point.

Income tax was NOT a major factor as only around 1 million americans paid it at the time. What did I just say? Poor people didn't pay tax and the system still took a ****? OMG. It wasn't until after WW2 that income tax became a major factor in US revenue. As for your other two points from your source, they confirm my statements.

But at least you told me im an idiot and included some 'counter' info rather that just call me an idiot like another poster.

However, it seems to me that you just wanna drag this forum to a new low by insulting people who don't agree with you rather than have a half decent debate over an issue. None of the forum here are worth reading anymore, so I'm jsut gonna drag the little speedguide forums buttom of my links. Sorry I insulted your ego by offering a professional counter argument.

My ego is fine, if your panties are in a knot it's your own doing. You keep misreading or misunderstanding my statements.

Here is an example of this:

You seem to think that I said that banks in Europe failed....I didn't. I said....

Once banking and trade with Europe failed

Trade with Europe failed.....banking failed here in the US. Now, because you are an astute follower of history, you already knew this....but you seem hellbent on blaming it on the unions. Oh those big baddie unions!!!!! Unions can never be good for anything, bunch of crybabies!!!!!!!

I also never called you an idiot. Do you feel like one because of what I say?

[JawZ]

At what point does personal responsibility step in? I personally am married with two teenagers, and our combined income is well under $80k a year. I have insurance through my employer (who by the way I have been with for 14 years, not because I love it but because of the so so wages and BENIFITS). I have made EVERY employment decision ( as an adult) based on wages, health insurance availability and retirement plans. Now I pay approx $150 per mo for full HMO and a crappy dental package. And my daughters braces just cost me $5700. I SAVED FOR THIS, instead of wasting the income tax refund and wasting extra after the pay check. I live within my means. If there is something (expensive) that I want I either save, or work a 2nd or 3rd job to provide it. I am probally the only one in my circle of friends, who work all the time. Not because I HAVE too, but because I want the bigger better things and I and only I can try to guarantee having something at retirement time. And I will do everything possible to not depend on a single dollar of gov assisance. (btw Im 39 and have worked continually since I was 12 (part time till 18) and have proudly NEVER EVER DRAWN A DIME OF UNEMPLOYMENT and I do not even have a college degree) Although I am starting back to school next month to finish my Bachelors to try to get something even better. No grants, just a new $15,000 student loan. I pay my way.

Now to the point.. if I wasnt able to get health insurance at a reasonable rate, I WOULDNT WORK HERE. There are thousands of larger companies out there who offer affordable health care plans to their people. If you are not working for a company that provides that benifit..... LEAVE. Stop trying to force other people (tax payers) to pick up your tab. Provide for yourself, get off the teet.

It, to me, ALL revolves around that personal responsiblity issue. Most people in this country that complain about how unfair things are are incapible of fending for themselves 100%. For example, say a great catastope happened where the USA lost all communications, power, just the nuclear winter Mad Max, worse case deal... You know similar to Y2K!, how many could survive and help their family not only survive but flourish.

As far as the univeral health care possibility, man thats hard to swallow. I think that the USA has the greatest possible care on the planet, BUT.... there are a lot of problems. A couple problems I see: a lot of the "uninsured" people in the USA are uninsured by choice (young and healthy and dont want to spend the money on something they probally wont need and could spend on something they really want, iphone ...tickets to Batman ect), 12-25 million illegal aliens (who dont contribute to the income tax fund and having babies here that receive instant citizenship at birth even though the parents arent legal and now qualitfy for welfare), lawsuits from malpractice cases with astonomical awards (Bubba gets killed by a forklift accident and the jury awards 20 million, for a person who would never earned that much in thier lifetime). .... I could get a whole thread on these abulance chasers.

I think it all boils down to finding a way to let the private market reduce the price of our services in the health care system. Reward the doctors not the insurance companies and definitely not the lazy good for nothings that are a scurge on our society. Get the gov out of it. The only thing the gov runs even halfway decent is the military and thats giving them a lot of credit. Think about it, what do they do better than the private sector? Mail delivery.. nope, they even managed to screw up their own monopoly!

rant over.....

You speak many truths and it's great that you are going back to school. Your kids will learn a great deal just from that act so follow through with it!!!!


The only thing I will say to you is that there is a problem, major problem with health insurance in general in that many times, the insurance company won't provide the needed care. So even if people can pay for it.....are they gonna get it when they really need it? That is what Michael Moore chronicled in SiCKO. I know you hate Moore and I used to as well....but the guy has valid points that we all need to be aware of and should act to change.

Again, health isn't a partisan issue and the partisan rhetoric has stymied the problem/solution approach that is needed to fix this bad boy. Nobody on either side of the isle wants to hear of change because if they didn't think of it, they can't own it and spin it as part of their own ideology. Sad.

[R0cke113]

Moore has valid points and O'reilly has valid rationalization. If we could combine these would would really have something. Instead of attacking the gov for not providing and the people for not wanting to pay why not attack the insurance companies who through their many loop holes provide probably the worst service in this country. Can you think of a worse one?

[David]

What is the difference in a man in Africa or Brazil or a man in France or the USA?

They both bleed and feel pain, hunger, love... We, the US are choosing to actually cause more harm to our people when in truth, if we actually gave a squat about man, there are many better ways to do it. Our people have become so spoiled, dependent and reliant on others they can't or don't want to do anything for themselves. Just because we were born here in the USA? What if you were born in South Africa?... You don't choose where you are born. And in truth, just being born in the USA makes you far luckier than 90% of the people born elsewhere in the world. Remember, there are far more poor & under developed countries, far more...

Our media has caused us to put such a high value on life that we forget death is a part of it. OMG, someone died! Unfortunate, but a part of everyday life. And with good reason as our population in the world is already taxing all of it's resources. Yes, I support and fight for cancer, among other things, many other things. However, I realize that it is a part of life, an unfortunate part of life.

This country is heading for a huge crash or rude awakening. Not as a result of just our President. This has been building for years, many Presidents, many bad decisions. Again, the true effects take years to realize. We have gotten too big for our britches... And that my friend, is exactly the point... We want everything,...for nothing...

We buy large and unnecessary houses, wasting resources, yet we cry when a tree gets cut down. It is OK if it is for my house, but I have a house so screw everyone else, cut no more trees down!

We have more cars than we can drive, nice, new with every feature imaginable. Go where we want, when we want. We can get the gas from another area/country, no problem, but lets don't get it from where I can see it or where it may affect me...

Is that not hypocritical? I'm just curious, perhaps ignorant...

We are so worried about what society can and will do for us, yet we do nothing really for society. Oh yeah, we can pump our egos and tell ourselves that we care for the environment (ours, not someone else's) and we demand all of the resources that we want, cheap. (don't inconvenience me though) we can petition to save humanity when in truth we are doing nothing more than teaching people to be dependent, yet we can hold our head high feeling like we are good people...

I won't be cold and go into further depth on who deserves what as I am not God or a judge, but I do have an eye open and see reality, and I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express before...

Health insurance would not be a problem for lower and middle if they used good judgment and realized that they have to look out for themselves and not expect society to bail them out. Keep in mind that insurance is only needed if you have an accident or get a disease. Much of that is preventable... Again, lets do what we want and if the ch|t hits the fan, someone will bail me out! That's real intelligent. I mean dependant...

Even the poorest of poor in the US is rich on a world standard...

Interesting points... though is it keeping within the focus of the discussion? If America is a modern Western country who, like its contemporaries, manages a baseline for its citizens (education etc.), should it not have some level comprehensive health care?

There seems to be a nagging point about responsibility and and bailing out those who lack it. It is understandable to have such a sentiment. I assume that extends to bankrupcy on both individual and corporate levels.

Insurance is gambling. The "house" does not want players who are "winning". That is why they toss out those who will drain from their coffers. A non-profit system is necessary to see to it that all will be mended.

Ken, I hope you would agree that there are better ways to accomplish tasks.

[Ken]

If that wasn't true, our debt to income ratio wouldn't be were it is, now would it... Look at what has happened to the housing market. Blame Bush because people don't read and understand contracts and what ARM and balloons are? Over extend themselves with out giving it a second thought? The amount Americans save has been dropping for many years. Way before Bush... I know that you would like to blame him, but the facts show that we have been living way above our means for many years, and it's finally catching up to us...
Our society is vastly living and dependent on credit. Much different than "the good ole days" of old.

Of course, your parents standard of living was far different than yours, no? I am sure that they enjoyed all of the luxuries that were available then, right? No sacrifices, they bought whatever they wanted, right?

Sure they sacrificed when needed. So do I and most people I know.

My parents? My dad died young but he had pretty much everything everyone else did, growing up. He started working in my grandfathers store when he was 10 for nothing. He worked after school and weekends on the premise that my grandfather would put him or at least help put him through collage. When he graduated high school, well, lets just say that didn't happen so he went into the Army during the Koran conflict. This was when the G.I. Bill actually MEANT something. Remember that one? The one that's been pretty much watered down from Reagan to the current admin?

My Mom? She did fine considering she had to raise four kids on her own so Ken..I know where your headed but for my parents and even my stepdad, they pretty much had all the material things they wanted fairly early in life and even had some money to play around.

Medical wasn't near as expensive nor was housing vs what people were making at the time. Gas was pretty cheap too, even considering what wages were at the time.

Let's see..I was making a buck twenty five in 1970 and gas was 30 cents. Minimum wage is what now? $5.85 and a gallon of gas is what? For most people, over 4 bucks a gallon.

As to blaming Bush for the mess? Who brought him into the conversation? IMHO, it depends on what you're talking about. The national debt? He had something to do with it but so did his Dad and Reagan. Supply side economics is a huge failure.

As to the housing crunch? Blame Phil Grame. It was his bill that loosened up the purse strings that led to some of the shenanigans in the housing market and also the Enron scandal as well as the part of the reason for the future markets in oil going nuts. His answer? "People whine to much about the economy." As his wife was one of the auditors for Enron and made a killing with them.

A more unregulated banking is also to blame. Would you loan a thousand bucks to someone you know is probably irresponsible? Banks do it all the time. They love to issue credit to those they know can barely pay a minimum payment. They like it even better if you miss a few. It certianly wasn't like that when I was growing up. In fact I had a hell of a time even getting a credit card I used for traveling only, despite never missing a car payment, a house payment, a rent payment, utility payment etc. etc. They flat get away with being hugely irresponsible.



I wasn't comparing universal healthcare to communism. Pure communism is basically everyone earning and having the same thing, no separation of classes. You get a potato, I get a potato... This country was build on free enterprise. You work hard, sacrifice, save and you can get somewhere. You screw off, be irresponsible, whatever, no problem, except realize that you "chose" that...


Actually you did but now that you've explained yourself, yes that's exactly what communism is in a nutshell.


The difference now is if we don't have what we want soon enough, we leverage credit until we have no more, then holler for help. I suppose Bush is the reason that bankruptcies had risen so high. Oh wait, most of that was before him. Yeah, John, you are right, stating that Americans live above their means is bull doody, until you open your eyes...


Some do and I said that. I don't and never have. Do you? In fact I know few who do although I do know it's true. Lots did before the great depression, during the 60's I knew a few people who did, same as the 70's and the 80's and the 90's.

Sorry John, I don't listen to anyones political opinion BS on the radio or tv. IMHO, it is a useless waste of time that I can't spare.

That wasn't pointed exatly at you my friend but the truth is, a good many Americans do and imho, some of those aren't exactly noted for being a very reliable source for info.

Gentlemen,
The point that I am trying to make is BEFORE we make yet another mistake and give people something that we can't take back, we must correct the existing programs that are ramped with abuse now.
Evan, as you stated the system needs an overhaul and that must be done first. Throwing money at a problem does not solve it... Yes, people suffer. We all have, as did our ancestors, but for the long term good of all… Unfortunate, yet a fact of life, here, there, everywhere…

It will not just be the same typical good for nothing leeches on society that will abuse, as we will be teaching a whole different class of people to expect and rely upon help…

Putting this on a world scale is merely to show you guys that we CHOOSE who we want to help. Is that point understood? We CHOOSE who WE want to HELP. Not just me, each one of you, whether you realize it or not. That is our right as Americans because we live in a free country. You CHOOSE to want to help Americans. I have no problem with that, I do it daily, however don't force it down my throat AND MAKE ME PAY for it. I CHOOSE who I want to help and let me add that I help many more than most. I can't stand the ramped abuse that our country has allowed to happen and continues to allow, and I most certainly do not want to increase it. Yes, we have turned our heads and carried on with our little worlds while more and more people become more and more dependant on others...

Some of us get the opportunity to go to universities and become doctors, etc., some of us get jobs, master our trades and start our own businesses and some of us choose to have the security of a 40 hour per week job with benefits, some of us choose to screw off and can’t get a job in the private sector. These are choices and options that we make.

How can you be jealous of someone else because they risked everything they had to try and give themselves a better future? We were worried to death that we would lose everything while the people that complain were getting their weekly paycheck. This is America and you truly do control your future. Lack of motivation, lazy, wanting job security are not excuses, they are choices… Some of us choose to exceed, others are content, others merely complain and blame everyone else…

I am going to tell you the following, not for sympathy, pity, or whatever. I am going to try to get you to understand a valid point and often we can only learn from what we can relate to, so here goes...

I have lived a hard life, poor family, no dad, my mom died 12 days before my 16th birthday, my older sister had to care for my younger sister and my brother was lost in alcohol. I had no help. If I wanted to eat, I had to work. I had to choose between food, electricity, water, transportation, healthcare, etc., constantly. I could not have them all at once. It sucked to be me, but I survived, dependant upon myself. My brother would work everyday and waste his money in the bars on Friday & Saturday night so he had no money to eat lunch come Monday. So, me being who I am, I did with-out and gave him my lunch money so that he could eat and finally I learned a lesson that you guys can’t seem to understand.

Many times, NOT helping someone is actually HELPING someone. The reason for telling this is so maybe you can see the point. As long as I helped him, it did nothing positive for him as he was dependant on me and grew more dependant on me. I suffered and he abused. Get the picture?
We, as humans, take things for granted. Finally, after a year or so, I understood that not helping forces people to help themselves. It hurt me to no end, and with every bite of lunch that I chewed, I cried inside because I knew that my brother had no lunch. However, I also knew that it was due to his lack of responsibility for himself… His fault, his lack of responsibility. He wasn’t trying to intentionally hurt me, I am not sure that he even thought about the burden that he was putting on me, however, that is not the point. People often never stop to think that SOMEONE must pay for EVERYTHING. Nothing is free…

Responsibility is just that, your responsibility. Our society has become so enthralled with entertaining ourselves, we have forgotten how much suffering that our ancestors sustained for us.

Some of us live in larger cities where the greater populations live and the lack of responsibility is more prominent. Hell, just open your eyes, it's not hard to see anywhere really, it's just that the largest concentrations of people live where? In the larger cities.
Sure, not everyone abuses the system, however, the % of abuse is unreal. Abusing the system includes welfare, insurance fraud, unemployment fraud, worker comp fraud, frivolous lawsuits, etc. It branches off into many more categories, but I believe that you guys get the picture…

Total the estimated numbers of all those, and I am sure that I have left some out, and you will get my point. We have helped to corrupt our people en masse. Constantly looking for ways to get something for nothing…

We constantly try to justify our mistakes and find someone to blame, instead of trying to learn from them. It is not hard to see this, if you pay attention. “I did that because…” never thinking “What did I do wrong? What can I do to correct it? What can I do to prevent it?” No, it is far easier to patronize ourselves and cast the blame to someone else.
What happens when justifying becomes a habit? You gain the ability to lie to yourself… Justification becomes so far fetched to the people around you, but no one wants to waste time arguing with you for no point, it is a waste of time, so they patronize you. You believe what you choose to believe and become totally non-receptive to the facts, logic, others point of view. Only yours matters, everyone else is wrong. Congratulations! You can lie to yourself and believe it now! Incredible, you say? Open your eyes and pay attention as it is not hard to see…

Jeremy, no apology was needed as I totally understand. There are always exceptions. And always will be.

John, with all due respect, at least your grandfather had a store, many of us started with nothing…
Quite honestly, I can’t say that gas is a necessity for everyone either, especially in the cities. Sure, it is great to be able to jump in your car, that you must pay for and pay insurance on and upkeep and gas, and go where you want to go, however, for many, public transportation is much more economical, environmental friendly, etc. Inconvenience! How dare someone insinuate that I should ride the bus. I am much too good for that. Oh my, really, who says? Again, if you can afford a car, fine. Don’t get public help and expect to be able to be a normal member of society having luxuries... Necessities and luxuries differ. Just like driving is a privilege… (Your states Drivers Handbook should clearly state that. People seem to forget it though.) If you can’t help yourself, if you can’t support yourself, help is there, however, if you rely upon that help, understand that it comes with a price. Nothing is free… Someone must pay for everything. What gives one the right to expect that?

And again, the effects of Presidents usually take many years to realize… In your opinion, the Republicans are the root of all evil, in truth, they are ALL politicians are evil, some get caught, others don’t… I have said many times that there must be a balance of the parties. I don’t agree with spending, and that is a basis of the Democrats. To spend, you must have…

I’m sorry, however, realistically, I can blame no one except the individuals for the housing failures. Again, lack of responsibility…

Just because a bank will loan you money does not by any means, mean that you should take it, does it? Who signed on the lines? How is that not the individuals fault and a great lack of responsibility? Please explain that, as I really want to know how you can blame that on anyone except the person that accepted the loan. Did someone have a gun to their head?

Oh wait, I qualify for a loan to get a Corvette! I’m buying a vette!!!!! OH, ch|t! The bank didn’t tell me the cost of insurance, so it’s the bank’s fault? What about maintenance and upkeep? What about gas?
I qualify for a house! Yes! Forget the only way that I can qualify for my dream house is with a loan that I don’t understand. One that has the potential to ruin me… I can get the house!!!!! I could get a normal loan for a more moderate house, but I want it all and I can get it, the bank says so!!!
That damn bank screwed me! Sorry, John, it’s not the banks fault, it is the individuals fault…

The point is that people do not look out for themselves. They don’t plan for the future, budget, depend upon themselves. They screw up and blame someone. That is why the same mistakes are continued to be made, we just don’t learn. We see things the way that we choose to see them. Poor, poor, pitiful me!...

And, thank you, John, for you enunciated the point that I have been trying to make. People must take responsibility upon themselves and not expect everyone else to pay for their mistakes… Lack of thought or planning, ignorance is not an excuse…

I have made my points, and as always, leave it to all. Whether one agrees or not is irrelevant as we choose to believe what we choose to believe…

I luv you guys! Hugs and kisses!

[jeremyboycool]

At what point does personal responsibility step in? I personally am married with two teenagers, and our combined income is well under $80k a year. I have insurance through my employer (who by the way I have been with for 14 years, not because I love it but because of the so so wages and BENIFITS). I have made EVERY employment decision ( as an adult) based on wages, health insurance availability and retirement plans. Now I pay approx $150 per mo for full HMO and a crappy dental package. And my daughters braces just cost me $5700. I SAVED FOR THIS, instead of wasting the income tax refund and wasting extra after the pay check. I live within my means. If there is something (expensive) that I want I either save, or work a 2nd or 3rd job to provide it. I am probally the only one in my circle of friends, who work all the time. Not because I HAVE too, but because I want the bigger better things and I and only I can try to guarantee having something at retirement time. And I will do everything possible to not depend on a single dollar of gov assisance. (btw Im 39 and have worked continually since I was 12 (part time till 18) and have proudly NEVER EVER DRAWN A DIME OF UNEMPLOYMENT and I do not even have a college degree) Although I am starting back to school next month to finish my Bachelors to try to get something even better. No grants, just a new $15,000 student loan. I pay my way.

Now to the point.. if I wasnt able to get health insurance at a reasonable rate, I WOULDNT WORK HERE. There are thousands of larger companies out there who offer affordable health care plans to their people. If you are not working for a company that provides that benifit..... LEAVE. Stop trying to force other people (tax payers) to pick up your tab. Provide for yourself, get off the teet.

It, to me, ALL revolves around that personal responsiblity issue. Most people in this country that complain about how unfair things are are incapible of fending for themselves 100%. For example, say a great catastope happened where the USA lost all communications, power, just the nuclear winter Mad Max, worse case deal... You know similar to Y2K!, how many could survive and help their family not only survive but flourish.

As far as the univeral health care possibility, man thats hard to swallow. I think that the USA has the greatest possible care on the planet, BUT.... there are a lot of problems. A couple problems I see: a lot of the "uninsured" people in the USA are uninsured by choice (young and healthy and dont want to spend the money on something they probally wont need and could spend on something they really want, iphone ...tickets to Batman ect), 12-25 million illegal aliens (who dont contribute to the income tax fund and having babies here that receive instant citizenship at birth even though the parents arent legal and now qualitfy for welfare), lawsuits from malpractice cases with astonomical awards (Bubba gets killed by a forklift accident and the jury awards 20 million, for a person who would never earned that much in thier lifetime). .... I could get a whole thread on these abulance chasers.

I think it all boils down to finding a way to let the private market reduce the price of our services in the health care system. Reward the doctors not the insurance companies and definitely not the lazy good for nothings that are a scurge on our society. Get the gov out of it. The only thing the gov runs even halfway decent is the military and thats giving them a lot of credit. Think about it, what do they do better than the private sector? Mail delivery.. nope, they even managed to screw up their own monopoly!

rant over.....

If it was not for workable health you would have never been able to accomplish what you have.

[Debbie]

I luv you guys! Hugs and kisses!

I love you too man.

Nice post.

I have a nephew who is 33 years old and acts like a 16 year old with a ghetto mentality. He refuses to grow up. He came to my house looking for food for him and his girl. I, for the first time, refused him. He will not talk to me to this day, but I heard through the grapevine that he is holding down a job and an apartment. He steadily lost his contacts that he was able to depend on.

You are so right Ken.

[JawZ]

Ken,


I can see that your POV is galvanized through hardship....but healthcare is not welfare. People don't CHOOSE to get sick. It isn't a choice. So while it is a choice to get health insurance or to get a job that pays enough to cover any unexpected healthcare costs, it still doesn't fix the problem.


the British use this:

Get treated based on your needs, pay according to your means.


People don't choose to get sick and they don't get to choose what illness they get. You can be the most physically fit and healthy person on the planet and suffer great illness or injury in a split second.


Lastly, how long have we as a society and a country talked up healthcare reform? If we go back to the Clinton years.....I don't even recall any reform in that time period. It's become nothing more than a talking point.

Well, I'm sick of talking. I'm tired of having spineless leaders that do nothing but keep talking.

[Ken]

Ken,


I can see that your POV is galvanized through hardship....but healthcare is not welfare. People don't CHOOSE to get sick. It isn't a choice. So while it is a choice to get health insurance or to get a job that pays enough to cover any unexpected healthcare costs, it still doesn't fix the problem.


the British use this:

Get treated based on your needs, pay according to your means.


People don't choose to get sick and they don't get to choose what illness they get. You can be the most physically fit and healthy person on the planet and suffer great illness or injury in a split second.


Lastly, how long have we as a society and a country talked up healthcare reform? If we go back to the Clinton years.....I don't even recall any reform in that time period. It's become nothing more than a talking point.

Well, I'm sick of talking. I'm tired of having spineless leaders that do nothing but keep talking.

Uoddy,

Hardships are what make us who we are, as we tend to endure. What doesn't kill us, tends makes us stronger, better people...

Also employees can not truly understand an employers POV, what he goes through, the burdens he carries. They work and expect their check, no matter what the employer suffers. His risks and his rewards... A subject for another thread in another time, my friend...


The point is that people choose to do other things with their money, namely entertainment and luxury items... They don't budget, plan ahead...

And again, if you are sick bad enough, in an accident, ...go to a hospital...

You WILL be treated...

AND YOU can then pay $5 to $10 per month, with no consequences, as long as you pay something every month... As long as you make AN EFFORT to pay every month, no detriment to your credit, no financial strain on yourself...

What part of that is inhumane? What part of that is so hard to understand? Please, explain that to me, I truly want to know...

I won't go into the free clinics and such, medicare, medicaid, whatever...

Let me help you out;
http://www.cms.hhs.gov/medicaideligibility/
http://www.medicare.gov/
http://www.hhs.gov/

These are Federal. Shall we go into the various programs available by states, or even local institutions?

What the people is saying is that they want help, they don't want to have to change their lifestyle, they want to have as many luxuries that they can-whether they can afford them or not, and they do not want to have to do anything-go out of their way to get help-filling out forms, waiting for approval, riding the bus, whatever... Just give ME what I DESERVE, for FREE, no hassles, no inconvenience. That's great, who pays for it?

However, maybe you can convince the doctors, dentists, and all healthcare workers to take a pay cut and make it more affordable...
However, the insurance companies mandate the medicines and costs, so perhaps contacting the states insurance commissions may be a better start...

Are you sure that we are an inhumane society that doesn't help our poor and unfortunate? Sorry, bro, we agree to disagree... I'm not saying our system is perfect. I am saying that it needs to be revamped before we start more. I am saying that I am tired of hearing people cry poor mouth, ...when they really aren't poor, just lazy and looking for a freebie... Take care.


David,
I believe that I inadvertently address your questions in my post. Let me know if I didn't, please.

[BroncoSport]

If it was not for workable health you would have never been able to accomplish what you have.

My health status is only part of the reason, my attitude of no-one owes me anything and I will provide for me and mine... is the main reason.

Jeremy, It is pretty obvious that (without the full details) either youself or someone close to you has had serious health problems. You seem very upset and frustrated. For that I am sorry.

You maybe in the minority of citizens, for whatever the reason, that state assistance is your only choice. Isnt it nice that in our country it is available. But I put it to you that there are hoards of people who abuse our current system so severly that it has raised the cost for everyone. If you you think that the medical card carriers (who go to the emergency room for a scrape, bruise or headache), medicare folks (who's doctors have them coming in bi-weekly even when they are perfectly healthy) , illegals in the emergency room(receiving 100% free care), and lawsuits with extreme awards(which the lawyers get 50%). All of these things combine to cost everyone more for healthcare and higher insurance premiums as well. Our society has become so PC that we cant say NO to anyone, anymore, for fear of a lawsuit or a scream of racism / discrimination.

I dont believe that pre-existing conditions should exclude a person from health coverage, but wouldnt it be fair to charge them a little more than say the perfectly healthy 20 year old, since the insurance company is almost guaranteed to pay out way more than they collect on the person with the pre-existing condition? And what about people with health problem causing lifestyles? People who engage in activities that are GOING to cause them health problems should have to pay more... shouldnt they? If I smoke 3 packs a day... Im most likely going to get cancer. If I was gay and engaged in unprotected activities with multiple partners.. the odds I might get aids are pretty high. Same with intreveinious (sp?) drug users. Same with alcoholics... The list goes on.

Theses folks WILL recieve the care they need and a lot wont be able to pay for it. Someone will have to....

But I still say that the majority of the problems for the healthcare in the USA is because of lack of personal responsibility. I have been sick. I have been feeling under the weather. I have had bad headaches. But I havent called in sick for over 9 years. People abuse the fact that they "get" sick days and use them like vacation. They arent physically sick, just sick of working. This affect our childrens attitude for the "right thing to do" and a good work ethic.

[JawZ]

Uoddy,

Hardships are what make us who we are, as we tend to endure. What doesn't kill us, tends makes us stronger, better people...

Also employees can not truly understand an employers POV, what he goes through, the burdens he carries. They work and expect their check, no matter what the employer suffers. His risks and his rewards... A subject for another thread in another time, my friend...


The point is that people choose to do other things with their money, namely entertainment and luxury items... They don't budget, plan ahead...

And again, if you are sick bad enough, in an accident, ...go to a hospital...

You WILL be treated...

AND YOU can then pay $5 to $10 per month, with no consequences, as long as you pay something every month... As long as you make AN EFFORT to pay every month, no detriment to your credit, no financial strain on yourself...

What part of that is inhumane? What part of that is so hard to understand? Please, explain that to me, I truly want to know...

I won't go into the free clinics and such, medicare, medicaid, whatever...

Let me help you out;
http://www.cms.hhs.gov/medicaideligibility/
http://www.medicare.gov/
http://www.hhs.gov/

These are Federal. Shall we go into the various programs available by states, or even local institutions?

What the people is saying is that they want help, they don't want to have to change their lifestyle, they want to have as many luxuries that they can-whether they can afford them or not, and they do not want to have to do anything-go out of their way to get help-filling out forms, waiting for approval, riding the bus, whatever... Just give ME what I DESERVE, for FREE, no hassles, no inconvenience. That's great, who pays for it?

However, maybe you can convince the doctors, dentists, and all healthcare workers to take a pay cut and make it more affordable...
However, the insurance companies mandate the medicines and costs, so perhaps contacting the states insurance commissions may be a better start...

Are you sure that we are an inhumane society that doesn't help our poor and unfortunate? Sorry, bro, we agree to disagree... I'm not saying our system is perfect. I am saying that it needs to be revamped before we start more. I am saying that I am tired of hearing people cry poor mouth, ...when they really aren't poor, just lazy and looking for a freebie... Take care.


David,
I believe that I inadvertently address your questions in my post. Let me know if I didn't, please.

What is the healthcare system like in our prison system Ken? If I'm ever in need of serious healthcare and find myself not being able to pay....I'm knocking off a 7-11.

Criminals choose to do crimes and yet we give them FREE healthcare.

The second part that you keep emphasizing is also a huge generalization. You keep saying that as long as you pay something, there won't be any consequences.....okay, here is what you aren't taking into account....IF....and let me stress it again...IF....you get treatment at all. Accidents aside, many long term illnesses and their respective treatments are ignored by the insurance companies and the patient dies needlessly.

so here we have people that can pay...are paying....and yet they are still denied treatment. This is now on an epidemic scale. Denial of treatment.


So what is there to disagree with on that Ken?

[David]

Ken,

I am fully qualified to disagree with you . I do appreciate your passion.

A simple question, if every citizen can utilize universal health care, where is the potential for abuse? By taking health care away from the for profit insurance corporations, there would be more money to treat patients and pay providers. The problem as I see it, again is the expansiveness of the US. If you are concerned about government involvement, don't, the insurance corporations are already there.

agree to disagree, I suppose.
david

[JawZ]

SiCKO Part 2
[YOUTUBE]LiMMkmGdf_s[/YOUTUBE]

Part 3
[YOUTUBE]WaBbbWZi5ks[/YOUTUBE]


And to keep it balanced and fair

Michael Moore and CNN's Sanjay Gupta on Larry King Live
[YOUTUBE]oR2U_SAWHdQ[/YOUTUBE]

[jeremyboycool]

This idea that the desire for universal health care is one born out of and/or aimed at slothfulness is off mark. I think some here may be to ready to generalize. But a few of you do say that there are exceptions. Well than I question. First lets drop the fuzzy word. How many lives of good honest hardworking people do we continue to stand by and watch as illness steals life from them? What is the limit of unnecessary death and suffering that is acceptable?

I don't expect these things for my own well being. But it takes on a whole new meaning when you have to witness others suffer. When you are sitting there thinking about what could of happened if only you had money. Not much just a little. A little money would save lives and prevent undue suffering. Take this into consideration. The majority of health care expenditures goes towards treating chronic illness not preventing them. With cheap health care more people would be willing and able to get regular checks up. Not only that, people could request additional services. It may not seem that critical but it is. This is where our free services fail. They are very reserve with the level of care they provide as they are on a limited budget with more patient then they can help. Patients not slackers. They tend to cut corners to save an extra buck and the people that work in these free service are severely outnumbered. Meaning that they are burnt out. Leading to poor health care by these services. Health care that had you or one of your loved ones received you'd be livid about it. A breeding ground for lawsuits. We are over taxing this system. Early detection; a simple wave of the wand. Would save both lives and money.

It's crazy to hear about the cost of universal health care and how no one wants to split the bill. When considering how much we spend already on health care and the level of service we are getting from it. It could very well end up costing less for better health care. As the prevention of chronic illness is the cheapest and healthiest approach to these problems. How many people with a debilitating illness are we already supporting? It's a shame to think that some of these people only begin to receive government help after it is to late. Which do you think cost more preventing these situations in the first place or supporting people with a debilitating disease? People who could be healthy and helping with health care themselves. Families that pinch pennies would be more able and willing to get regular check ups. Parents would not have to choose their children's health over their own. This alone would boost our health and savings. Also this would mean less people on SSI and allow more people to work into the later years of their lives.

America may have advanced medicine but that does not necessarily equate to great health care. Health is not a luxury it is not a car, a phone or fancy jewelry. It a basic human need like food, water and air. We would not refuse a genuinely starving individual food and I don't see why we should deny the genuinely sick proper medical care.

[R0cke113]

How about we get rid of all forms of welfare and we simply put students through college for free in exchange for them working in medical clinics for minimum payment for 5 years afterward. We set-up a free clinic for every 10,000 people with a couple doctors in each. That would more than take care of the needy and that would save us money.

[R0cke113]

and i agree if we raised our children with work ethic. I dont know any natural born american white black or hispanic who doesnt truly feel that they are owed something. That is the true root of our problem everyone thinks they are owed something for just being here. Any immigrant has the work ethic to understand that they have to work for everything nothing is handed to them and they understand and believe they should get what they have worked for. Not to say all are like that, but there are a lot of good americans natural born and immigrant who do. Example(my wife comes from the center of Phili i came from a mix of country young to pittsburgh to suburbs for about 2 years while in college) We were both not poor but definitely lower class. She has a strong belief that the government should pay for a lot of things and that typical i am owed ideology. I catch that sometimes i wont deny it, however i am quick to remember the strong work ethic instilled in me. My idea of needs is BASIC clothing a roof with running heated water and some food. her idea for NEEDS is some NICE clothes to be able to go out and have fun on friday, have a cell, internet, and those luxuries while going out to eat atleast once a week and grabbing breakfast on the way to work regularly because (i didnt have time). She wonders why she is broke. When i run out of money i know why because i was IRRESPONSIBLE. we have totally different ideals. I feel too many Americans have those ideals especially the ones on the system. I have a problem financially supporting those people. I wish to continue keeping my finances seperate from theirs.

[jeremyboycool]

and i agree if we raised our children with work ethic. I dont know any natural born american white black or hispanic who doesnt truly feel that they are owed something. That is the true root of our problem everyone thinks they are owed something for just being here. Any immigrant has the work ethic to understand that they have to work for everything nothing is handed to them and they understand and believe they should get what they have worked for. Not to say all are like that, but there are a lot of good americans natural born and immigrant who do. Example(my wife comes from the center of Phili i came from a mix of country young to pittsburgh to suburbs for about 2 years while in college) We were both not poor but definitely lower class. She has a strong belief that the government should pay for a lot of things and that typical i am owed ideology. I catch that sometimes i wont deny it, however i am quick to remember the strong work ethic instilled in me. My idea of needs is BASIC clothing a roof with running heated water and some food. her idea for NEEDS is some NICE clothes to be able to go out and have fun on friday, have a cell, internet, and those luxuries while going out to eat atleast once a week and grabbing breakfast on the way to work regularly because (i didnt have time). She wonders why she is broke. When i run out of money i know why because i was IRRESPONSIBLE. we have totally different ideals. I feel too many Americans have those ideals especially the ones on the system. I have a problem financially supporting those people. I wish to continue keeping my finances seperate from theirs.

Why should I have to pay for public education? I didn't bring any children into this world why should I have to pay for someone else's child. They should have planned ahead and saved money.

I'll tell you why because I can and it's the right thing to do.

[R0cke113]

I see your stand point, however I separate the two. One is supposed to be producing higher quality to run our country and the other creates another crutch for the lazy mooches. There are already entirely too many crutches basically holding the bums up. So if you want gov health care then take away some of the standing crutches and make people take care of themselves.

[Debbie]

Thank you UOD for posting those videos. It true and sad to say that people die because they cannot afford the medical attention that they need and that insurance companies have so much control over what can be done for you so that they can make their profits.

They also dictate what medications you can use too. I believe they get kickbacks from those pharmaceutical companies for profit.

It is all about profit.

I have a friend who is a doctor in Italy. She chose to live in a town where here parents grew up. She loves it there. Her father is a retired doctor here in the states. He said that she is not making the income there that she could have in this country. She will not come back to live here.

So, another issue comes up with government control over health care. It is not only the insurance companies. A medical professional's profit will go down too. It is all part of the package.

It's all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Ken]

What is the healthcare system like in our prison system Ken? If I'm ever in need of serious healthcare and find myself not being able to pay....I'm knocking off a 7-11.

Criminals choose to do crimes and yet we give them FREE healthcare.

The second part that you keep emphasizing is also a huge generalization. You keep saying that as long as you pay something, there won't be any consequences.....okay, here is what you aren't taking into account....IF....and let me stress it again...IF....you get treatment at all. Accidents aside, many long term illnesses and their respective treatments are ignored by the insurance companies and the patient dies needlessly.

so here we have people that can pay...are paying....and yet they are still denied treatment. This is now on an epidemic scale. Denial of treatment.


So what is there to disagree with on that Ken?

Uoddy,
You are saying the exact point that I have been trying to make, thank you.

Once again, BEFORE we can rush in and start another program, with-out giving adequate thought by competent people, we must FIRST correct the programs that are abused and faulty...

I believe that our prison systems, penalties, standards of living, etc., would be included in that reform, wouldn't you... As I named quite a few and said that there are many more, and yes, our prisons/penal systems would be in that list. I am not going to give my opinion on career criminals, just sticking to the point that the existing programs must be brought under control before we can start others...

You say "epidemic" scale, are we talking about "epidemic" life threatening health problems or more comfort issues?

Granted, I don't watch the news very often anymore as it is all yellow journalism, propaganda BS, however, I really don't recall hearing masses of people ...er...Americans, dieing from lack of healthcare... What channel do you watch? I do hear of a lot of malpractice suits though...

Why don't we first remove the invalids and terminal diseases and illnesses, because, ...well ...they are terminal, meaning no cure, aside from divine intervention or a miracle... Should we continue to "sustain" their so called life? Is it really the humane thing to do or is it a waste of resources?

Should we provide long term care for allergy sufferers? I am one of those and you know what, I learned better than taking costly medicine daily was to stay away from the things that triggered them. This will work for many. I mean sniffles and red eyes are a major concern, right? Many Americans die from it everyday, right.

What about the common colds?

What about sore muscles and joints? Pain killers, addictions, should I elaborate...

Should we really give transplants to the elderly? What about the people that have problems with multiple organs? Is their body beyond help anyway?

Treat any and everyone, no matter what, just treat them! Brilliant!

Maybe we should disband the military as that is probably what it would end up taking to pay for it.
Just look at Japan and how great they are doing. They don't have a military and everyone seems to support and devote themselves to the corporations, maybe if we did the same. Oh wait, they can't have a military, we have to protect them, unconditional surrender and all and besides our corporations are evil...

You know something, I have spent probably an hour total and have came up with many questions, doubts and points, that quite honestly no one here has addressed in the least... Start over with my first post...

I have pointed out the unlimited possibilities, ...er...probablities of abuse. And I am not even in the healthcare fields, although I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express, I merely have an open eye, yes 1, to see that we never learn from our mistakes and will continue to repeat them. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread, would sum it up nicely...

What a great nation we are! How many people "starve" to death in a YEAR in the USA?
IF someone did, it would make national news. Do you have any idea how many people die EVERYDAY from starvation in the world? You are worried about providing healthcare for our people and put that as more important than food... A cup of rice a day for a family of 4... What is more inhumane, watching someone die from a disease or die from starvation?
And, do you know the really sad thing, those poor bastards don't have an opportunity to work, nor a system to abuse, but we can't see them from our house, so it is ok...

Ever really wonder why we are hated by the world, Uoddy? Could it be because we are the narrow minded, self centered, arrogant, selfish, wasteful, spoiled, ingrates on the planet?
Yes, WE ALL live on this planet! We want oil, but don't get it from our land! We want needless huge houses, but don't cut down trees here.
We are so great! We are so proud of our self inflated egos and tell our selves what great humanitarians we are. Excuse me, what great people we are for wanting to take care of all of the desires of Americans, screw the world as I can't see it from my house.

I ask you this, where does it end? When do we quite depending and relying the people that have done what they had to do to become successful? Should we provide free transportation for everyone? I recall someone saying that cell phones are a necessity, should we then provide free cell phones and air time? I eat steak and lobster, should steak and lobster now be provided for all? When does it stop, really? The more you give, the more is expected... Hello captain obvious!

I pity the poor bastard that discovers an alternate form of fuel/energy as at first he will be a hero, and in a few years, he and his business will be condemned and considered another big business raping the Americans. How easily we forget the past...

You know, if it wasn't for big business and the people that started them, ...America wouldn't be so great, would we...?

Ken,

I am fully qualified to disagree with you . I do appreciate your passion.

A simple question, if every citizen can utilize universal health care, where is the potential for abuse? By taking health care away from the for profit insurance corporations, there would be more money to treat patients and pay providers. The problem as I see it, again is the expansiveness of the US. If you are concerned about government involvement, don't, the insurance corporations are already there.

agree to disagree, I suppose.
david

David,
Our society is a society of abuse. We abuse everything possible. I already mentioned free doctor visits will cause onslaughts of people with excuses to miss work, a cheap option for RX drug addictions, malpractice suits, when does treatment stop, when will the word "fair" and "unfair"-he received better care than me... Just a few major points right off the top of my head, with-out more than 2 minutes of thought. I am sure if you really spend time thinking about all of the effects and liability, you will see more, they are not hard to see... Please don't just entertain the good parts, as that always gets us in trouble... (You will see more and examples in my previous posts)

If we hadn't completely groomed our society to be dependent already, it may have been possible. However, again, with-out reform of existing, we can't even begin to introduce another type of free ride and another "class" of abusers. We go from the worthless POS people, now to the people that actually work.


A thought though, car insurance and rates are regulated...

I am now done with this thread. I do believe that I have addressed each question that you guys have directed at me, however, that has not even remotely been reciprocated...

Have a great day, guys!


Edit- With all due respect, you gents are seeing only the assets and not giving due consideration to the liability...
It doesn't mean picking a side, it means thinking equally of the pros and cons. The assets and liabilities...

[Izzo]

...words

so many things wrong here I'm not sure where to start or finish....so much for the moral obligation to help those less fortunate as it appears the almighty dollar is the one dictating things at this point.

Japan can and does have a military ...for defensive purposes.

[jeremyboycool]

Americans, dieing from lack of healthcare...

18,000 per year.

The uninsured have a 25% higher death rate than the insured. 50% of all bankruptcies in America were significantly effected by illness. 75% of medical bankruptcies the individual had insurance when they fell ill. In ranking of fairness of financial contribution to health care we rank 55 just above Iraq. I think these stats are a bit old but they give you an idea.

[jeremyboycool]

Some of you might be interested in what Massachusetts is doing.

http://www.hcfama.org/_data/global/reso ... t-3-07.pdf

http://www.hcfama.org/index.cfm?fuseact ... rentID=569

[JawZ]

I guess we should change the RNC motto....


Right to birth, your own responsibility to live....no right to die.

[JawZ]

Some of you might be interested in what Massachusetts is doing.

http://www.hcfama.org/_data/global/reso ... t-3-07.pdf

http://www.hcfama.org/index.cfm?fuseact ... rentID=569

good find, I love the format of the talking points paper. I may not agree with it all but it's easy on the eyes and easy to understand.

[Ken]

18,000 per year.

The uninsured have a 25% higher death rate than the insured. 50% of all bankruptcies in America were significantly effected by illness. 75% of medical bankruptcies the individual had insurance when they fell ill. In ranking of fairness of financial contribution to health care we rank 55 just above Iraq. I think these stats are a bit old but they give you an idea.

I really hate to tell you this, however more than 2X that die each year in car accidents... (>42,000 then add ~3,000,000 injuries)
So, by statistics, we would come out far better, by merely outlawing cars, wouldn't we...

Statistics can be misleading, my friend... See things how you want...

[Lefty]

I really hate to tell you this, however more than 2X that die each year in car accidents... (>42,000 then add ~3,000,000 injuries)
So, by statistics, we would come out far better, by merely outlawing cars, wouldn't we...

Statistics can be misleading, my friend... See things how you want...

69.93521% of all statistics are made up.

[MadDoctor]

69.93521% of all statistics are made up.

You're making that up.

[jeremyboycool]

I really hate to tell you this, however more than 2X that die each year in car accidents... (>42,000 then add ~3,000,000 injuries)
So, by statistics, we would come out far better, by merely outlawing cars, wouldn't we...

Statistics can be misleading, my friend... See things how you want...

I know they can be misleading they can also hold truth. You asked I supplied the numbers. Take them however you want. But simply because people die in car accidents that is not just cause to continue to let other's die of lack of proper health care. One wrong does not justify the existence of a different wrong.

[Ken]

I know they can be misleading they can also hold truth. You asked I supplied the numbers. Take them however you want. But simply because people die in car accidents that is not just cause to continue to let other's die of lack of proper health care. One wrong does not justify the existence of a different wrong.

Well, 18,000 die a year with-out health insurance, but how many of those would have died even if they had health insurance?... See what I mean... That is how many that died with-out health insurance, but it doesn't say that they would have lived if they had it... It doesn't say that they died because they were refused medical care...

You want a relevant statistic? Find out how many people die each year in the US because they were refused medical care due to lack of health insurance... I doubt that you will find many died as a result of that...

Terminal is terminal and insurance is irrelevant with a terminally ill patient...

Many of those 18,000 could have died in a car accident and been taken to the ER, just nothing could have been done for them... You follow what I mean? The fact that they had car insurance but didn't have health insurance, they were treated and covered by the car insurance, but with-out health insurance, they add another death to the non health insurance statistic when it really had nothing to do with it at all. Totally irrelevant and decieving...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bad guy that is against it, I am just saying that much needs to be revised before something of that scale can be considered. Before we make another probable outlet of abuse, we must correct the existing ones, see where we are at and then start thinking about the possibilities.
Yes, it can have many good effects, however, it can have equal bad ones too...

edited to add clarification...

[jeremyboycool]

Well, 18,000 die a year with-out health insurance, but how many of those would have died even if they had health insurance?... See what I mean... That is how many that died with-out health insurance, but it doesn't say that they would have lived if they had it... It doesn't say that they died because they were refused medical care...

You want a relevant statistic? Find out how many people die each year in the US because they were refused medical care due to lack of health insurance... I doubt that you will find many died as a result of that...

Terminal is terminal and insurance is irrelevant with a terminally ill patient...

Many of those 18,000 could have died in a car accident and been taken to the ER, just nothing could have been done for them... You follow what I mean? The fact that they had car insurance but didn't have health insurance, they were treated and covered by the car insurance, but with-out health insurance, they add another death to the non health insurance statistic when it really had nothing to do with it at all. Totally irrelevant and decieving...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bad guy that is against it, I am just saying that much needs to be revised before something of that scale can be considered. Before we make another probable outlet of abuse, we must correct the existing ones, see where we are at and then start thinking about the possibilities.
Yes, it can have many good effects, however, it can have equal bad ones too...

edited to add clarification...

It is not people who died without health insurance, it's people who died because of a lack of health insurance.

"You want a relevant statistic? Find out how many people die each year in the US because they were refused medical care due to lack of health insurance... I doubt that you will find many died as a result of that..."

I would imagine that would fall into the 18,000.

[Ken]

It is not people who died without health insurance, it's people who died because of a lack of health insurance.

"You want a relevant statistic? Find out how many people die each year in the US because they were refused medical care due to lack of health insurance... I doubt that you will find many died as a result of that..."

I would imagine that would fall into the 18,000.

Help me understand, you are saying that 18,000 people die each year because they have no health insurance and are refused medical treatment due to lack of health insurance and die as a result, is that correct?

If that is correct, sorry, however, I need to see the source of that statistic... No one in a life or death situation is refused medical care in the USA. You are being mislead somewhere... Please post that link.

Perhaps they had a condition and didn't have the money or the know how to get help, so they died as a result. I might be able to believe that.

Insurance or not, if you are dying, you go to a hospital, you will get treated. And again, most hospitals and the doctors that work there subsidize free clinics where you can get care for free. It would cause me to question how hard they tried to get medical care. As I said, most hospitals have that info available. It was all in my face during the last year and a half that I spent a great deal of time hospitalized...

[BroncoSport]

I just googled death causes for the USA and got this: Pretty interesting, imo.


Deaths/Mortality

(Data are for U.S. for year indicated)

Number of deaths: 2,448,017

Death rate: 825.9 deaths per 100,000 population

Life expectancy: 77.8 years

Infant Mortality rate: 6.87 deaths per 1,000 live births

Number of deaths for leading causes of death:

Heart disease: 652,091

Cancer: 559,312

Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 143,579

Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 130,933

Accidents (unintentional injuries): 117,809

Diabetes: 75,119

Alzheimer's disease: 71,599

Influenza/Pneumonia: 63,001

Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 43,901

Septicemia: 34,136

[BroncoSport]

and this too.... Strange how heart problems top the list with heart attacks and cancer leading. Poor diet and lack of exercise and fatal habits (smoking and weight) or not being able to counter the crappy habits with a miricle drug from no health insurance....???

CAUSES OF DEATH, USA, 2002 FORMAL NAME INFORMAL NAME % ALL DEATHS
(1) Diseases of the heart heart attack (mainly) 28.5%
(2) Malignant neoplasms cancer 22.8%
(3) Cerebrovascular disease stroke 6.7%
(4) Chronic lower respiratory disease emphysema, chronic bronchitis 5.1%
(5) Unintentional injuries accidents 4.4%
(6) Diabetes mellitus diabetes 3.0%
(7) Influenza and pneumonia flu & pneumonia 2.7%
(8) Alzheimer's Disease Alzheimer's senility 2.4%
(9) Nephritis and Nephrosis kidney disease 1.7%
(10) Septicemia systemic infection 1.4%
(11) Intentional self-harm suicide 1.3%
(12) Chronic Liver/Cirrhosis liver disease 1.1%
(13) Essential Hypertension high blood pressure 0.8%
(14) Assault homicide 0.7%
(15) All other causes other 17.4%

[JawZ]

Good info Bronco.

I think that another facet to this issue, especially when talking about reform of current policies, is cost and utilization.

You see, even if everyone can pay, those who utilize the system drive up costs for the rest of us. We are being penalized for being healthy and living/practicing healthy lifestyles.

Is that fair?


That's one of the things that scares all the fat rich people.....


I'm all for illness/injury prevention, as long as it's equal in scope and scale, and as long as there are rewards for those of us that don't utilize the health care system. I don't want to see the sick be penalized, but there needs to be rewards for being healthy.

[downhill]

Ken I really find it hard to believe you honestly think it's just that easy for the poor to get treatment. Or the bottom end of the middle class for that matter.

Look, I get killer health benefits with my job right now. At one time I paid nothing for them but as with all Americans, we've found that we've had to kick in monies to keep the insurance up. I'm not above paying more so others can at least get "some" kind of help. I'd guess my own costs would be double possibly what they are now. Fine by me.

I do find some of your comments to me and about me as really, quite insulting. *shrug*


You keep confusing this issue with "entitlements". Fine by me if you look at it that way but my own personal view is that taking care of our fellow human beings isn't "entitlement" on their part. It's a responsibility on our part. It's not that once we do this we can't ever go back. We SHOULDN'T go back.

How will it effect your own pocket book? Depends on how and what's done but it's the right thing to do.

[Izzo]

Ken I really find it hard to believe you honestly think it's just that easy for the poor to get treatment. Or the bottom end of the middle class for that matter.

Look, I get killer health benefits with my job right now. At one time I paid nothing for them but as with all Americans, we've found that we've had to kick in monies to keep the insurance up. I'm not above paying more so others can at least get "some" kind of help. I'd guess my own costs would be double possibly what they are now. Fine by me.

I do find some of your comments to me and about me as really, quite insulting. *shrug*


You keep confusing this issue with "entitlements". Fine by me if you look at it that way but my own personal view is that taking care of our fellow human beings isn't "entitlement" on their part. It's a responsibility on our part. It's not that once we do this we can't ever go back. We SHOULDN'T go back.

How will it effect your own pocket book? Depends on how and what's done but it's the right thing to do.

Is it really that hard to believe? It's a page torn right out of Billo's handbook...of which thousands subscribe to. It's just further proof that there is no hope for humanity for some.....as long as they have theirs **** everyone else. It's another form of greed.

[JawZ]

The following video will probably shock and disturb some of you....so be warned.

[YOUTUBE]k4L6-0WRfSA[/YOUTUBE]

[JC]

The following video will probably shock and disturb some of you....so be warned.

[YOUTUBE]k4L6-0WRfSA[/YOUTUBE]

WOW! Just think! You can get 1 year maternity leave, and a free car!
Let me know when you are moving so I can help you pack!