Are we being any better then them?

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:44 pm

thepieman wrote:David..I believe you, and this is exactly why I am not so keen on the Israeli government. They have the same crap we do. They have government that does what they want to do and not what the people want.

I see the multitude of websites by Jews all over the world calling for this to end, so I know what you say is true, but for some reason the government continues anyway and the US keeps feeding them the weaponry to do it with.

I want peace as well...but how do you get peace when one side is unwilling to negotiate at all?

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:46 pm

Ghosthunter wrote:I want peace as well...but how do you get peace when one side is unwilling to negotiate at all?

OK Im game. Which side do you say doesn't want peace?

Im taking side bets if anyone wants in, on who he is going to say doesn't want peace.

David · Post by **David** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:53 pm

Pierre,

You are correct. It is the same crap we have over here. I can speak however for family and a multitude of friends and colleagues who have been there. Yes, there are "idealistic" militant Israeli youth, many who have lost loved ones to terror, that scream for the blood of the Palestinians. I cannot say that they are the majority.

Izzo,

IfAmericaknew is fairlu well known as an anti-Israeli and antisemitic site. It is often quoted by the folks at stormfront and their ilk. The information is not entirely true or exact.

Izzo · Post by **Izzo** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:58 pm

Hell_Yes wrote:Pierre,

Izzo,

IfAmericaknew is fairlu well known as an anti-Israeli and antisemitic site. It is often quoted by the folks at stormfront and their ilk. The information is not entirely true or exact.

Having trouble with that part....I don't believe they are a majority ..but certainly more than a few. I'm simply saying each side has issues to deal with and the leadership for both appears indifferent to working anything out...in a nutshell...neither side is innocent.

Leatherneck · Post by **Leatherneck** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:59 pm

thepieman wrote:And this is your proof of their hate? LOL Its an accurate statement even from someone back in the 2nd century! The Christians actually believe that they need their all important 150,000 Jews for Jesus to come back and think that everyone thats not saved will burn in hell. The Jews all think that they are the chosen people and will be the only ones to be going to heaven, so are you trying to say that the Muslims are any different or any less because they have a special feeling about their religion too?

Your statement is nonsense and it doesn't prove anything about hatred. The Bible and Old testament all have messages of hatred and death in them too. Even the murder of ones own children...so what. This is what happens when you all abide by something that was written for a people of a different time.

Geez Pie, you are too defensive sometimes. I was simply quoting Muslim scripture straight from the Koran to show what they believe. It was to show that they think we are infidels and when you look at our lifestyles, they have a point. They do differ from Christianity in that Allah (God) does not love everybody.

By the way, I don't believe I need to prove their hatred, they do a fine job themselves.

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:09 pm

GH
It doesn't matter who the **** does or doesn't. Its affecting US now. Do we really care or should we really care? Do you see what we did by cutting off the Palestinians ? They both need us more then we need them. If we had the balls to just sit Israel down and tell them "Look, you go back to this line and give them their land and stay out of their business and out of their territory, sign the NPT, submit to IAEA inspections, recognize the state of Palestine OR you get No more money and no more US hardware" , then You go to the palestinians and tell them 'this is your land, you take it, fix it up and get on your feet with our help, you stay out of israeli boundries and monitor your citizens for any signs of unrest and deal with it harshly, recognize the state of Israel and do away with any and all manifestos of hate and to denounce ANY further statements by any religious or fanatic group on behalf of the palestinain people that calls for the eradication of the jewish state"
You tell them BOTH we are taking Jerusalem under the auspices of the UN and it will be governed by a world body of multi-national and multi-religious people, no one will own it or should have owned it, as past history has shown its been an area of conflict for centuries. For such a holy place there has been so much death and bloodshed there. Unless God, Allah or G-d are into sacrifice, I doubt very much he would be pleased with ANY of you.

Pie

Edit: added something more to the Palestinian line.

David · Post by **David** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:18 pm

Izzo wrote:Having trouble with that part....I don't believe they are a majority ..but certainly more than a few. I'm simply saying each side has issues to deal with and the leadership for both appears indifferent to working anything out...in a nutshell...neither side is innocent.

It was poorly written.

The argument starts with the history of the area. It must end in peace. Sadly, there is an awful lot of money from the West and from the Arab world turning the holyland into a Verdun.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:26 pm

thepieman wrote:OK Im game. Which side do you say doesn't want peace?

Im taking side bets if anyone wants in, on who he is going to say doesn't want peace.

Hamas refuses to deannounce support for terrorism and refuses to back down from wanting to eliminate state of Israel and its destruction

Once those two conditions are met, I think it will be a lot easier for negotiations. See Hamas wants everything and to be no longer a state of Israel existing at all.

That is why I am saying it is one sided. The PM of Israel has said several times they want peace and want to work out negotiations..but if they just withdraw without having something in place, it will just end up causing more violence in the end.

Why will they Hamas refuse to change thier views? They are willing to hurt their own people:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull

The Hamas-led Palestinian Authority will overcome crippling international sanctions by using "patience," the top Palestinian envoy said Thursday.

The Palestinian government has been hit with crushing economic sanctions mainly by Israel, the United States and European nations because of Hamas' refusal to renounce violence and recognize Israel's right to exist.

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:40 pm

Ghosthunter wrote:Hamas refuses to deannounce support for terrorism and refuses to back down from wanting to eliminate stae of Israel and its destruction

Yeah and blah blah blah Israel loves Palestinians and they drop flowers on them and not bombs. Keep up with the bs though, I give you an E for constant effort and propaganda. Listen just because Israel is smart enough not to make fantastic statement in the press only goes to show they are very well groomed in the ways of diplomacy. Whats the motto of the mossad? 'By way of deception, thou shalt do war.'
They don't trumpet the fact that they want to end the lives of all the palestinians but they sure as hell play a mean flute over their graves.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:39 pm

thepieman wrote:Yeah and blah blah blah Israel loves Palestinians and they drop flowers on them and not bombs. Keep up with the bs though, I give you an E for constant effort and propaganda. Listen just because Israel is smart enough not to make fantastic statement in the press only goes to show they are very well groomed in the ways of diplomacy. Whats the motto of the mossad? 'By way of deception, thou shalt do war.'
They don't trumpet the fact that they want to end the lives of all the palestinians but they sure as hell play a mean flute over their graves.

propaganda?????

here is their charter it is right here to read:

http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html

Hamas is one of the links in the Chain of Jihad in the confrontation with the Zionist invasion. It links up with the setting out of the Martyr Izz a-din al-Qassam and his brothers in the Muslim Brotherhood who fought the Holy War in 1936]The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).[/b]

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware."

From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed.

Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers?

And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. 'Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper. Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120

There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it:

The people of Syria are Allah's whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow. (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.)

This is coming from a govt that was voted in??? This is not just an extreme terrorist organization but one that considers it a legit Govt?

How do you make peace with a govt who intends on destroying you?

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:35 pm

Nice try there bubble boy.

The History of Terrorism
in the Region

Editor's Note: We believe that the killing of innocent people is wrong, in all cases. Thus, we cannot condone the use of terrorism by some extreme Palestinian groups, especially prevalent during the 1970s. That being said, however, it is necessary to examine the context in which such incidents occurred.

We hear lots about Palestinian terrorism. How about the Israeli record?

"The record of Israeli terrorism goes back to the origins of the state - indeed, long before - including the massacre of 250 civilians and brutal expulsion of seventy thousand others from Lydda and Ramle in July 1948; the massacre of hundreds of others at the undefended village of Doueimah near Hebron in October 1948;...the slaughters in Quibya, Kafr Kassem, and a string of other assassinated villages; the expulsion of thousands of Bedouins from the demilitarized zones shortly after the 1948 war and thousands more from northeastern Sinai in the early 1970's, their villages destroyed, to open the region for Jewish settlement; and on, and on." Noam Chomsky, "Blaming The Victims," ed. Said and Hitchens.

Terrorism - continued

"However much one laments and even wishes somehow to atone for the loss of life and suffering visited upon innocents because of Palestinian violence, there is still the need, I think, also to say that no national movement has been so unfairly penalized, defamed, and subjected to disproportionate retaliation for its sins as has the Palestinian.

The Israeli policy of punitive counterattacks (or state terrorism) seems to be to try to kill anywhere from 50 to 100 Arabs for every Jewish fatality. The devastation of Lebanese refugee camps, hospitals, schools, mosques, churches, and orphanages; the summary arrests, deportations, house destructions, maimings, and torture of Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza..these, and the number of Palestinian fatalities, the scale of material loss, the physical, political and psychological deprivations, have tremendously exceeded the damage done by Palestinians to Israelis." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."

The U.S. Government and media bias on terrorism in the Middle East

"It is simply extraordinary and without precedent that Israel's history, its record - from the fact that it..is a state built on conquest, that it has invaded surrounding countries, bombed and destroyed at will, to the fact that it currently occupies Lebanese, Syrian, and Palestinian territory against international law - is simply never cited, never subjected to scrutiny in the U.S. media or in official discourse...never addressed as playing any role at all in provoking 'Islamic terror.'" Edward Said in "The Progressive." May 30, 1996.

http://www.cactus48.com/terrorism.html a link taken from this site

http://www.jewsforajustpeace.com/

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:38 pm

I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do Evil in return.

W.H. AUDEN, "September 1, 1939"

Leatherneck · Post by **Leatherneck** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:39 pm

I'm all for a temporary ban on link posting and cut-n-pastes

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:43 pm

bigmo66 wrote:I'm all for a temporary ban on link posting and cut-n-pastes

well since if you tell certain people something they don't believe you..its necessary. Im not posting things taken from anti-jewish sites. Im getting it from jewish sites so this way there is no way he can tell me its racist.

David · Post by **David** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:54 pm

thepieman wrote: Im not posting things taken from anti-jewish sites. Im getting it from jewish sites so this way there is no way he can tell me its racist.

I will give you that.

Still, the number of pre-1948 massacres Jews vs. Arabs still heavily favors the Arabs. They had been far worse to the Jews. Regardless, any death is one too many.

David · Post by **David** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:57 pm

BTW Pierre, do you read The Progressive on a regular basis?

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:17 pm

pie,

posting from Progressive now....a very left wing site...cant get anymore left then that

how far you want to go back into history? or you just want to pick and choose?

in 1929 you had huge riots against the Jews by muslims broke out where it was instigated by preachers in mosques where 400 jews were killed..and there were more riots in 1930's in Israel. They also did not just kill the Jews, they mutilated their bodies.

do you want to solve the problem now or 50 years ago? or from 200 years ago? or from 1,200 years ago or 2,000 years ago?

right now hamas is refusing to back down on destroying all of Israel. until that changes there will be no peace. You also seem to be ok with Hamas stance.

P.S. still havent asnwered my earlier posts you still think Koch should be President?

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:23 pm

How about we get back to topic?

How about a poll?

Other than "we" vs. "them"......is man more civilized than what we were during WWII?

What did we as a species, learn from that war?

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:36 pm

Hell_Yes wrote:BTW Pierre, do you read The Progressive on a regular basis?

Not on a regular basis. I think it was a site I came upon and started to read and its in my favorites list so I go back and read up from time to time.

Pie

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:55 pm

Ghosthunter wrote:pie,

posting from Progressive now....

how far you want to go back into history? or you just want to pick and choose?

in 1929 you had huge riots against the Jews by muslims broke out where it was instigated by preachers in mosques where 400 jews were killed..and there were more riots in 1930's in Israel. They also did not just kill the Jews, they mutilated their bodies.

do you want to solve the problem now or 50 years ago? or from 200 years ago? or from 1,200 years ago or 2,000 years ago?

right now hamas is refusing to back down on destroying all of Israel. until that changes there will be no peace. You also seem to be ok with Hamas stance.

P.S. still havent asnwered my earlier posts you still think Koch should be President?

Theodor HerzlTheodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, recognized that anti-Semitism would further his cause, the creation of a separate state for Jews. To solve the Jewish Question, he maintained “we must, above all, make it an international political issue.”[1] Herzl wrote that Zionism offered the world a welcome “final solution of the Jewish question.”[2] In his “Diaries”, page 19, Herzl stated “Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.”

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zioni ... /index.cfm

Theodor HerzlThe term "Zionism" was first introduced in 1893 by Nathan Birmbaum, but Theodor Herzl, an Austrian Jew born to a prosperous, emancipated Budapest family, is recognized as the founder of the Zionist idealogy when he published his book in 1896, "The Jewish State", where he declared that the cure for anti-semitism was the establishment of a Jewish state. As he saw it, the best place to establish this state was in Palestine.

While Herzl claimed that the establishment of a "Jewish" state would cure anti-Semitism, he also promoted anti-Semitism to further his cause.

Herzl stated in his diary:

“It is essential that the sufferings of Jews.. . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-Semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-Semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-Semites shall be our best friends”. (From his Diary, Part I, pp. 16)

Benny Morris (the Israeli Historian), described how Herzl foresaw how anti-Semitism could be "HARNESSED" for the realization of Zionism. He stated:

"Herzl regarded Zionism's triumph as inevitable, not only because life in Europe was ever more untenable for Jews, but also because it was in Europe's interests to rid the Jews and relieved of anti-Semitism: The European political establishment would eventually be persuaded to promote Zionism. Herzl recognized that anti-Semitism would be HARNESSED to his own--Zionist-purposes." (Righteous Victims, p. 21)

Blame that upon the people who started the movement. They KNEW well in advance what they were doing and yet they went ahead and did it anyway decieving the arabs of Palestine, buying the land up and disallowing the sale of the land back to arab hands. If you look back at the link that David posted a while back that was a UN site it will give you some background on the founders of Israel and what they did. Its all there in declassified memorandums and personal notes.

You seem to be Ok with Israels stance.

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:05 pm

Ghosthunter wrote:
P.S. still havent asnwered my earlier posts you still think Koch should be President?

Ed Koch was great for NY and was a good person. He would make a great president as long as his religious beliefs do not intertwine with his political duties and he remembers that Americans come first before anyone.

Prey521 · Post by **Prey521** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:10 pm

Ed Koch is gay, he'd never even win the primaries LOL

And isn't the dude like 80 yrs old?

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:14 pm

ok this cutting and pasting is getting ridiculous...*edited by the SG staff*?

why not let it go and get back to topic as DH suggested?

Leatherneck · Post by **Leatherneck** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:18 pm

downhill wrote:How about we get back to topic?

How about a poll?

Other than "we" vs. "them"......is man more civilized than what we were during WWII?

What did we as a species, learn from that war?

Back on topic? Nah. You'd think after 8 billion years, Man would be a heck of a lot more civilized! Now we can morph the thread into creation vs evolution

Oh and in WWII we leaned that putting the menthol/cotton innards of a Vicks inhaler into a hot canteen cup of black coffee gets you stoned

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:20 pm

Prey521 wrote:Ed Koch is gay, he'd never even win the primaries LOL

And isn't the dude like 80 yrs old?

So what if he's gay? Have you ever heard anything scandalous about him? Has he ever flaunted himself or his lovers or even his sex life to anyone? I don't know for sure if he is for a fact gay but he has always been a supporter of gay people even before it was a big issue. I bet a lot of the people you idolize in government are probably closet case homo's and you wouldn't even know it. They are married and have kids and go off on trips and have sex parties with underage boys.

Just like that preacher that you told us about and the priests in catholic churches that you like to kid about..

Ed Koch is successful, he's outgoing, he's intelligent and hes genuine. Yes as I said he's pretty much up there in age so Im sure that would probably be a problem.

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:24 pm

Ghosthunter wrote:ok this cutting and pasting is getting ridiculous...do you have any thoughts of your own?

why not let it go and get back to topic as DH suggested?

You don't have an original bone in your body...you are like a parrot that mimics what people say..Bigmo mentioned cut & paste and now so do you...meanwhile you are the cut and paste king.

This is my thread btw just so you remember who started it and who took it off track and that would be you.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:26 pm

thepieman wrote:You don't have an original bone in your body...you are like a parrot that mimics what people say..Bigmo mentioned cut & paste and now so do you...meanwhile you are the cut and paste king.

This is my thread btw just so you remember who started it and who took it off track and that would be you.

oh get off yourself...already...if you recacll you made this remark right on the first page and that is really what got the thread off the mark:

thepieman wrote:Its a shame that Americans of your faith

you had no idea Koch was that pro israel..and now all of a sudden you still want him for president even though he thinks we should as a nation take out Iran with preventive strikes..LMAO yea you would support that in a second yeah right

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:48 pm

Ghosthunter wrote:oh get off yourself...already...if you recacll you made this remark right on the first page and that is really what got the thread off the mark:

you had no idea Koch was that pro israel..and now all of a sudden you still want him for president even though he thinks we should as a nation take out Iran with preventive strikes..LMAO yea you would support that in a second yeah right

Like I said O' maligner of words...AS LONG AS HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS DON'T INTERFERE WITH HIS POLITICAL DUTIES TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE FIRST AND FOREMOST.

If he says attack Iran because he thinks they will be a threat to Israel without any proof and yet allows Israel to have WMD's themselves, then the answer is NO I WOULD NOT SUPPORT HIM.

IF he was to say lets attack Iran because they are going to attack us in the USA and he has undisputable proof that there are Missiles waiting with targets in America then I would say YES I WOULD SUPPORT HIM

As far as knowing that Ed Koch was pro-israel...I knew he was Jewish, and I guess he never made a big issue out of it. He can be pro-israel all he wants as long as his politics are not skewed towards one country because of his beliefs.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:54 pm

thepieman wrote:Like I said O' maligner of words...AS LONG AS HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS DON'T INTERFERE WITH HIS POLITICAL DUTIES TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE FIRST AND FOREMOST.

If he says attack Iran because he thinks they will be a threat to Israel without any proof and yet allows Israel to have WMD's themselves, then the answer is NO I WOULD NOT SUPPORT HIM.

IF he was to say lets attack Iran because they are going to attack us in the USA and he has undisputable proof that there are Missiles waiting with targets in America then I would say YES I WOULD SUPPORT HIM

As far as knowing that Ed Koch was pro-israel...I knew he was Jewish, and I guess he never made a big issue out of it. He can be pro-israel all he wants as long as his politics are not skewed towards one country because of his beliefs.

If you knew anything about Koch and his history you would know exactly where he stands..which shows you don't know much about the NY Mayors to begin with.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:57 pm

Well this thread has run it's course.

Information for those who might be interested in what happend to the last few posts.

They were removed for flaming and name calling. Time to cool off.