US withdraws from 3 decade arms treaty!!!

AoDLiQuiD-M3tH · Post by **AoDLiQuiD-M3tH** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 11:06 am

I have no idea what to make of this what are some of your guys inputs??? http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20011 ... se_28.html

should we be worried?

AoDLiQuiD-M3tH · Post by **AoDLiQuiD-M3tH** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 12:34 pm

Putin: U.S. ABM Withdrawal a 'Mistake'

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Dec13.html

WW3 will be comming

blebs · Post by **blebs** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 12:52 pm

The world is changing in a very ugly mode, very quickly.
I can understand Bush on one hand, but in light of current events, I don't think now is the time to start ticking Russia off.

Crump · Post by **Crump** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:02 pm

yea, who knows what this will bring

KANO · Post by **KANO** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:31 pm

chit happens, maybe when we all get nuked we can start over

Humboldt · Post by **Humboldt** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:38 pm

What an intelligent move. Anyone who says that Bush isn't in bed with the defense industry needs to wake up.

I agree there's a new concern given the 911 events, but enough to role back 30 years worth of work towards a nuke-free environment?

AoDLiQuiD-M3tH · Post by **AoDLiQuiD-M3tH** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:51 pm

no your right it, seems kinda harsh to turn back on 30 years of proggress with russia and china. I think its good to want to plan defense for your country but why not work with russia and china to develop this defensive "NET". But I guess we are still to imature as a race to be able to think globaly.

Crump · Post by **Crump** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 1:57 pm

you call what we live in a nuclear free enviroment....uh....no

KANO · Post by **KANO** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 2:10 pm

this is not new, u see the idea behind the space shuttle is really to take stuff to and from space.

having a defence like the one you guys are aiming for is really a good thing, but as its being setup some might take the notion that strike early b4 we cant strike @ all.

and then as said in the link others might build more nukes then your starwars can stop, the arms race is going to explode.

had more to say only my dads just came round.

Humboldt · Post by **Humboldt** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 2:16 pm

Originally posted by Crump
you call what we live in a nuclear free enviroment....uh....no

That's not what I said, and not even close to what I said. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Crump · Post by **Crump** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 2:20 pm

Originally posted by Humboldt

That's not what I said, and not even close to what I said. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I did not put words in your mouth...I asked a question. I did not say "you said".

poptom · Post by **poptom** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 2:36 pm

It's about time! Should have been done the moment the USSR disolved.

KANO · Post by **KANO** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 2:37 pm

or maybe you 2 have a fight and we can kill this good topic?

KANO · Post by **KANO** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 2:39 pm

Originally posted by poptom
It's about time! Should have been done the moment the USSR disolved.

what? lol USSR have still got nukes did you know that, dont forget china.

Humboldt · Post by **Humboldt** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 2:44 pm

Originally posted by Crump

I did not put words in your mouth...I asked a question. I did not say "you said".

Don't play dumb Crump, cause I know you're not.

The way you phrased it implied that someone, in this case me, had stated we were in a nuke-free environment.

AoDLiQuiD-M3tH · Post by **AoDLiQuiD-M3tH** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 2:46 pm

Originally posted by KANO

what? lol USSR have still got nukes did you know that, dont forget china.

I think he ment that when the USSR desolved we would of been better to back out of the treaty because we didnt know what impact of the desolve would be and how well they would be able to keep up their end of the Treaty.

But I could be wrong

KANO · Post by **KANO** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 2:48 pm

Humboldt its plain and clear what you said in your post,

but enough to role back 30 years worth of work TOWARDS a nuke-free environment?

maybe crump misread it.

Humboldt · Post by **Humboldt** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 2:52 pm

Originally posted by KANO
Humboldt its plain and clear what you said in your post,

heh, I thought so too.

AoDLiQuiD-M3tH · Post by **AoDLiQuiD-M3tH** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 2:55 pm

Originally posted by KANO
Humboldt its plain and clear what you said in your post,

but enough to role back 30 years worth of work TOWARDS a nuke-free environment?

maybe crump misread it.

okok i see what was said and what happened i was lost for a min.

I think crump was just trying to say that even after 30 years of work where is this nuke free enviroment??? And he misconstrude what humbolt ment by his statement.

Damn we cant even have a conversation without needing a SG treaty to be made between 2 people

Crump · Post by **Crump** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 2:55 pm

Originally posted by KANO
Humboldt its plain and clear what you said in your post,

but enough to role back 30 years worth of work TOWARDS a nuke-free environment?

maybe crump misread it.

maybe...but we are not rolling back anything...we need to step up security...especially this kind of security

AoDLiQuiD-M3tH · Post by **AoDLiQuiD-M3tH** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 3:01 pm

I would like to make a point that i tried to make before but possibly didnt come across as i wanted. What i ment by saying if we worked togeather as a to build this deffense with some of the other super powers then we would cause a lot less attention. Building this project on our own will only cause some of the bugger supper powers to wonder why we need to shield just ourselfs. Its not like we would use this deffensive star wars program to help out russia if they were being fired on. It would cost too much money but if we built this proogram with russia and china if they wanted we would have a better chance of success with it. Technology from both sides of the world to benifit human kind not just USA HUMAN KIND.-

poptom · Post by **poptom** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 3:09 pm

Originally posted by KANO
what? lol USSR have still got nukes did you know that, dont forget china.

Sure, others have nukes also. That's why I'd feel much more comfortable if we could go ahead and develop a proper defense system.

KANO · Post by **KANO** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 3:37 pm

i really like the idea of starwars, when i first heard of it years ago it sounded kool, and today i still feel the same way about it, maybe bush could have timed it better, things have not settled yet & he needs support still, from nations that would not normly give it.

also having a defence system, out side of our planet could help us if the little green men come

Randy · Post by **Randy** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 3:46 pm

Originally posted by Humboldt
What an intelligent move. Anyone who says that Bush isn't in bed with the defense industry needs to wake up.

I agree there's a new concern given the 911 events, but enough to role back 30 years worth of work towards a nuke-free environment?

exactly the bushes are gun happy! they like killing

had a good laugh at the SNL skit of father and son (bushes) hunting.

AoDLiQuiD-M3tH · Post by **AoDLiQuiD-M3tH** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 4:14 pm

Originally posted by Randy

exactly the bushes are gun happy! they like killing

had a good laugh at the SNL skit of father and son (bushes) hunting.

hmmm *cough* texas *cough*

CiscoKid · Post by **CiscoKid** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 4:47 pm

Originally posted by KANO
i really like the idea of starwars, when i first heard of it years ago it sounded kool, and today i still feel the same way about it, maybe bush could have timed it better, things have not settled yet & he needs support still, from nations that would not normly give it.

also having a defence system, out side of our planet could help us if the little green men come

The Star Wars Orbital Deffence System was thought to be a great idea, I still support it. Many people beleave that the system was created and has been in use for tracking purposes for the past 30 years. If such a system existed, and was common knoledge, there would be ALOT more conflicts.

Though I support the system, if it does not yet exist, however, Bush SHOULD NOT have backed out of the treaty. Thge other Super Powers could easily cut us out of international affairs...

AoDLiQuiD-M3tH · Post by **AoDLiQuiD-M3tH** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 4:57 pm

Originally posted by CiscoCert

The Star Wars Orbital Deffence System was thought to be a great idea, I still support it. Many people beleave that the system was created and has been in use for tracking purposes for the past 30 years. If such a system existed, and was common knoledge, there would be ALOT more conflicts.

Though I support the system, if it does not yet exist, however, Bush SHOULD NOT have backed out of the treaty. Thge other Super Powers could easily cut us out of international affairs...

an interesting point to be made do you start a war without the guns? taliban excluded..... We must have the means to implement this plan because I dont think we would of made this call unless we had the means to do so. This could effect relationships between the us china and russia and who would want to do so with out being able to back it?

gmcd33 · Post by **gmcd33** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 6:26 pm

In theory, the treaty should be null and void. Wasnt it between the US and the USSR? The USSR is no longer a country. I dont see how it would be enforceable anyway.

AoDLiQuiD-M3tH · Post by **AoDLiQuiD-M3tH** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 6:45 pm

Originally posted by gmcd33
In theory, the treaty should be null and void. Wasnt it between the US and the USSR? The USSR is no longer a country. I dont see how it would be enforceable anyway.

Thats a good point never thought about that. Ill have to look into that

AoDLiQuiD-M3tH · Post by **AoDLiQuiD-M3tH** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 6:49 pm

1992
1992 -- January 13 RUSSIAN SUCCESSION Russia announces its succession to the Soviet Union in all treaties.

1992 -- January 28 PROTECTION AGAINST ATTACK President Bush, in his annual State of the Union address, calls for congressional support "in funding a program to protect our country from limited ballistic missile attack."

1992 -- January 31 RUSSIAN PROPOSAL FOR JOINT GLOBAL DEFENSE SYSTEM Russian President Boris Yeltsin, in an address to the United Nations Security Council, reaffirms Russia's "allegiance" to the ABM Treaty, calling it "an important factor in maintaining strategic stability in the world." He proposes elimination of existing anti-satellite (ASAT) programs and suggests a ban on weapons especially designed to destroy satellites. President Yeltsin also announces that Russia is "ready to develop, then create and jointly operate, a global defense system instead of the SDI system." President Yeltsin says he is calling for the United States and Russia "to jointly devise a global system for protection from space," while both sides continue to "faithfully observe...all of the provisions" of the ABM Treaty.

1992 -- June 17 WASHINGTON SUMMIT DECLARATION At a summit meeting in Washington, the United States and Russia agree to create "a high-level group to explore on a priority basis" the concept of a Global Protection System (GPS). The group will discuss:

"The potential for sharing of early warning information through the establishment of an early warning center.
"The potential for cooperation with participating states in developing ballistic missile defense capabilities and technologies.
The development of a legal basis for cooperation, including new treaties and agreements and possible changes to existing treaties and agreements necessary to implement a GPS."
1992 -- September 21-22 SECOND U.S.-RUSSIAN GPS MEETING At the second U.S.-Russian meeting on GPS after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the United States tables a protocol to the ABM Treaty that would:

Permit six sites with 150 interceptors each.
Permit unlimited ABM development and testing.
Permit unlimited space-based sensor development and testing.
Redefine "testing in an ABM mode" to permit more capable theater ballistic missile defenses.
Permit the transfer of ABM systems to other states.
The protocol would last for 10 years, at which time either side would be free to deploy space-based defenses.
1992 -- October 9 BISHKEK AGREEMENT At Bishkek, the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) sign an agreement pledging to support and implement the ABM Treaty.

1992 -- November 3 U.S. PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION During his campaign for the U.S. presidency, Bill Clinton renounces the goal of a space-based defense system and supports the development of an option for "a limited missile defense system within the strict framework" of the ABM Treaty. Clinton, who is elected president on November 3, also supports the development and deployment of theater missile defense (TMD) systems "to protect our troops from short- and medium-range missiles."

from http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/abmt/chron.htm

twisted · Post by **twisted** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 6:51 pm

I agree that the treaty had to be disolved, however, i don't agree with how it was done. I just hope that Bush and Putin talked through all possible options before we just pulled out. It would have been more acceptable to me if the treaty was disolved mutually.

If I'm not mistaken, the US and Russia had both agreed to reduce the number of warheads when Putin was in Taxas with Bush a few weeks ago. I think this was a positive move in an effort to reduce nuclear warheads.

I also heard last night on FOX that we have already done two stages of testing on this new technology but the next step in our testing process would violate the treaty. I'm sure that is why we exercised our right to disolve the treaty noe so we could resume testing in the near future.

Do any of you think that there is another country as powerful as the US right now and how much further will this new technology put us over the rest? I would not want to piss off the US now or in the future.....

AoDLiQuiD-M3tH · Post by **AoDLiQuiD-M3tH** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 6:53 pm

Dont be mistaken russia has always been ahead of the us in most advances. They are even ahead of us in development of partical weapons. SO I dont think its wise not to include them in this new defense strat. they can be more of an asset then you might think.

FunK · Post by **FunK** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 6:56 pm

Didn't Bush and Putin also agree to get rid of hundreds of nukes just last week?

I don't think it's anything to really get worked up over. It might be seen as a mistake now, but after we stop the first Nuke (Or conventional missle) headed for a friendly country, noone will be crying about the system that stopped it.

That Cold War doctrine is out the window. Perhaps if Russia did a better job of keeping track of all that "lost" nuke material, we wouldn't have such a need for this system.

FunK

64bit · Post by **64bit** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 7:00 pm

Originally posted by twisted
Do any of you think that there is another country as powerful as the US right now and how much further will this new technology put us over the rest? I would not want to piss off the US now or in the future.....

No there is not. IMHO there never will be either. Its the way are government is setup. It keeps an even distribution of power in the 3 branches and 2 levels of government. Its unique to the United States and Its the best setup in the history of the world. Even when we go through abismal leadership like the crrent administration we americans and our way of live still prevail because prior wrongs can be undone in a timely fashion and in most instances the peoples voice is the rule of law. God bless America.

FunK · Post by **FunK** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 7:19 pm

Even when we go through abismal leadership like the crrent administration

I'll not touch that (too much), except to say;

Yeah buddy, they are doing a really ****ty job compared to china loving, secret selling, sex offender, convenience marriage, can't tell the truth (under oath), blow-job man.

Had that prick still been in office, he would have to have fled to England................This is a war we are in you know........ No room for the likes of him.......

LMMFAO!

Good Call!
FunK

Bonskibon · Post by **Bonskibon** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 7:27 pm

What happened 9-11 shook us all to the core. We are living in times that we are not used to. We need to stand behind our president and pray for him, for wisdom to make the right choices for our great country. God Bless America!

IranianHobo · Post by **IranianHobo** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 7:28 pm

Let's compare:

Clinton is in bed with interns.

Bush is in bed with oil, defense and any other buissness who had enough wits to pour him down with money. Good god, Cheney discussed the enery plan with oil executives whose names won't even be released.

------

Clinton lied under oath about getting head, the horrible thing is it set a horrible precedent.

Bush invoked his executive order and kept Presidential papers out of the hands of Congress, BOTH parties attacked him for it, and some are threatening to sue him.

-----

Of course this is biased, of course it's not the whole picture but so is the post above mine.

64bit · Post by **64bit** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:01 pm

Originally posted by FunK

I'll not touch that (too much), except to say;

Yeah buddy, they are doing a really ****ty job compared to china loving, secret selling, sex offender, convenience marriage, can't tell the truth (under oath), blow-job man.

Had that prick still been in office, he would have to have fled to England................This is a war we are in you know........ No room for the likes of him.......

LMMFAO!

Good Call!
FunK

LMMFAOEM

You Clinton bashers really crack me up. Had this happened Had that happened blah blah blah. Wake up BUDDY. Your boy is in there now and the war is the only thing that half wit is doing half way right. You think clinton was bad. Heh. This guys underhandedness makes clinton look like a choirboy. Oh by the way, while that blow job gettin, lying SOB was in office our country just happened to experience the best economic growth in history and one of the lowest jobless rates to.

Gaming-Module · Post by **Gaming-Module** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:11 pm

a bunch of snippets about including china in a global nuclear defense net

Are you insane???

Give China immunity to the only thing that could possibly bring them down in a war?

That's insane. The survival of this nation relies heavily on a "nukable" China.

Gaming-Module · Post by **Gaming-Module** » Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:18 pm

sex offender, convenience marriage, can't tell the truth (under oath), blow-job man

Do these really mean anything? Not really.

Sure, Chinese BUSINESS may have contributed to Clinton's campaign fund. Well no chit, since we have all the business they want and HE is the man to know when you want lucrative policy passed stateside.

Do I agree with it? Not really. I think we need to make every effort to isolate China and choke them to death economically, but maybe I'm just an arsehole.

Clinton has done plenty for this country, including the economy. And dont give me that "the economy effects of a president are delayed," argument, because I'm not buying it, and besides. He was in office 8 years. He musta did something right in the early 90's that contributed to the opulence that was 99/00.