Do you worship God???

Ahren · Post by **Ahren** » Thu May 01, 2003 2:29 pm

Sheep go to Heaven, Goats go to Hell.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Thu May 01, 2003 2:51 pm

Originally posted by Norm
I always seem to inflame these discussions with my opinions, but I do NOT mean to insult or degrade anyone elses opinions.
That said..

It just doesn't make sense to me - God

He supposedly 'knows everything' so when he created Adam and Eve he "knew" beforehand that they would have faults. Logically speaking he created humans in order to punish us. He "knew" that we would disobey Him before He created us.

And why does every human have to be punished for one or 2 bad apples ?

Higher intelligence, I can believe. more powerful beings than humans I can believe. But a God, not a chance. And the God portrayed in the bible, if He does exist, isn't someone I could worship anyway. I can't worship a person, or a God who creates a race in order to punish them. Nor can I worship a God who demands I worship Him before all others. What is His fear? I may find another God better than Him?

Too many faults in this God for me to worship Him, even if He does exist.

Hey Norm,

I know how you feel, and for a long time I felt the same way as you, and that is because Christianity/Judeo vaules was pushed down my throat for too long. Christianity just makes no sense to me and I believe that most of what it is has been twisted of the real truths.

I dont believe God sends people to hell. I actually do not believe in Hell, becuase hell is already here on earth we are surrounded by it.

God loves everyone no matter what, and I know this is going to upset a lot of people but even the Saddam Houssein and Bin Ladens of the world, but that does not mean I have to like them.

What really made me start to believe there is something out there?

Several things, but mainly becoming a paranoraml research investigator gave me even more credible evidence there is another dimension out there and other forces of energy that we as humans cannot comprehend.

knightmare · Post by **knightmare** » Thu May 01, 2003 2:52 pm

i worship Jesus Christ, when u say God, u might be talking about
Allah, buddah, Lucifer, or some of the other false enities or idols.

I often hear someone say, well if there was a God, he wouldnt have let my loved one pass away. maybe he loved them more than u, after all he created them......

to the post above me, hell was created for the fallen angels never intended for men, until the sin of adam & eve.

I myself was once more evil than any cyberthug in here, i;m glad someone did shove religion down my throat.

Zilog B · Post by **Zilog B** » Thu May 01, 2003 2:54 pm

Originally posted by Jarngrimr
Sheep go to Heaven, Goats go to Hell.

Excellent song!

teaaememy · Post by **teaaememy** » Thu May 01, 2003 3:05 pm

Originally posted by Joint Chiefs Of Staff

BRING ON GOD!

Thought so.....

thems fightin words

Roody · Post by **Roody** » Thu May 01, 2003 5:13 pm

Originally posted by Norm

P.S.
I = Non believer. Actually stunned that anyone could believe something like a God exists.

Thats alright. Us believers are stunned that you dont

Seriously though Norm. I understand your questions, but in truth God sees things on a higher level then we do. Your questions are valid, thats for sure. That said they dont make God any less real.

Roody · Post by **Roody** » Thu May 01, 2003 5:15 pm

Originally posted by Joint Chiefs Of Staff

If there was a god then why did he let my dad die? Answer that one people.

I think Limp Bizkit said it best when they said. "With the good comes the bad, with the bad comes the good."

A better example of course lies in Genesis.

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Thu May 01, 2003 5:36 pm

Originally posted by Roody
Thats alright. Us believers are stunned that you dont

Seriously though Norm. I understand your questions, but in truth God sees things on a higher level then we do. Your questions are valid, thats for sure. That said they dont make God any less real.

The way I see it, God knows everything. That's what I've been led to believe anyway (if He exists)

So, He knows me well. He knew me well before I existed, since He created me. He knew I would come to SG and spread the word of truth as well. He also has the power to stop me, right?
But He didn't.

And when all is said and done He's going to forgive me

So far I've had my share of the punishment He dishes out. Time now for some goodies I would think. I just wish He would hurry up with the forgiveness and get on with the goodies

Joint Chiefs of Staff · Thu May 01, 2003 5:44 pm

Originally posted by teaaememy
thems fightin words

Bring it on!

Roody · Post by **Roody** » Thu May 01, 2003 5:46 pm

Originally posted by Norm
The way I see it, God knows everything. That's what I've been led to believe anyway (if He exists)

So, He knows me well. He knew me well before I existed, since He created me. He knew I would come to SG and spread the word of truth as well. He also has the power to stop me, right?
But He didn't.

And when all is said and done He's going to forgive me

So far I've had my share of the punishment He dishes out. Time now for some goodies I would think. I just wish He would hurry up with the forgiveness and get on with the goodies

LOL Norm. Thats one way to look at it

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Thu May 01, 2003 5:47 pm

Originally posted by YARDofSTUF
but as mentioned before he doesnt think he should be ignored on all levels of life for that, and i agree with him.

Hm....ignored on all levels of life. I don't remember saying that...or even implying it...but sure, why the hell not!

This is certainly an odd attack-Jim/discuss politics/debate religion thread.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Thu May 01, 2003 5:50 pm

Originally posted by BIGJIMSLATE
Hm....ignored on all levels of life. I don't remember saying that...or even implying it...but sure, why the hell not!

This is certainly an odd attack-Jim/discuss politics/debate religion thread.

no u didnt say or mean that, i'm saying this is how he read it tho.

jeremyboycool · Post by **jeremyboycool** » Thu May 01, 2003 7:04 pm

LOL.....You guys are crazy that's all there is to it.

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Thu May 01, 2003 7:09 pm

Originally posted by jeremyboycool

LOL.....You guys are crazy that's all there is to it.

You noticed they are all crazy too?

I guess I'm not the only one who noticed

koldchillah · Post by **koldchillah** » Thu May 01, 2003 7:32 pm

I guess after all my life of having religion shoved down my throat I finally broke free and have discovered MY true beliefs rather than joining a cult of historical mass hysteria that has a name and an imaginary entity.

The entire concept of religion is very strange to me. More people have died because of their religious beliefs and the wars derived from these beliefs than ANY other cause. What gives us mere humans the right to speculate such grand ideas and furthermore to act on these speculations against other humans who differ on their beliefs? Seems like pure evil prejudice to me.. But naahh... lets just call the concept 'religion' and let all the people of the world take their sides and may the last one standing be the correct one..

And for those who want to bring science up... how dare you? Don't you know that science is overrated and that religion extends beyond the reaches of it?

I've read the Bible (both versions).. It's a great book.. I highly recommend it.. particularly the book of Job.. But for me to say, "oh, the bible is the answer to all my questions" would be B.S. because I haven't had the chance to read all the other religious books out there in order to cross-reference.. Has anyone else out there read 'em all? If not, then how was it that you became so sure you chose the correct one? If you were born in a different place and exposed to different beliefs does that make you a lesser being than those who THINK they believe in the correct God?

I can't stand those people who criticize other for not having the same beliefs. Can't we all just get along? Oh, I forgot.. as long as religion exists.. we can't.. why? because we are human and most humans have to have an answer for everything, even when we can't prove it.

What is the purpose of life if there is no religion?
thats an easy one. THERE IS NO PURPOSE... its all merely the same as the concept of an ever-expanding universe, or the concept of infinity. All we can do is deal with it and do our best on this earth and stop worrying about what happened to Uncle Jesse or Grandma Betty or whats going to happen to me after I die... these are all BS questions we feel obligated to ask because of an instilled fear and/or curiosity we all share about death.

If people stopped believing in religion and started believing in each other, just imagine what we could accomplish as a unified species... If that happened we might actually have a chance at getting off this planet and moving our species elsewhere before this planet takes a crap on us (not in any of our lifetimes of course).. BUT nah!.. the world is like hell just as a lot of Christians say it is.. (just read the book "Left Behind" if you dont agree or the Bible if you dare) so lets just die trying to join it under one common religion because God will save those of us who are with him and to hell with the rest, right?.

Just to clarify, May your God bless all of you and to you agnostics & athiests out there, need I remind you of Jerry Springers last phrase at the end of every show?... be good to each other and to yourselves.

I'm through.

<<<<climbs into nuke-proof bunker and puts on radiation suit>>>>>

PS> wasn't tryin' to start anything.. just venting my feelings on all the religious threads I've always stayed out of.. I like a lot of you SG peeps.. especially those folding... no matter what religion you are!!

peace out, tha chillah

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Thu May 01, 2003 7:33 pm

I saw this funny joke that I think applies here:

Man said that he prayed to God to get him a car.

It never happened, so he stole a car then asked God for forgiveness.

torsten · Post by **torsten** » Thu May 01, 2003 7:39 pm

This thread is like a schizophrenic patient. I have no drug to order its elements into coherence.

But there's a lot of neat things here.

I don't think BJS meant to dismiss everything a non-voter would say. Just that political complaints from them carry less weight because of their decision not to participate in that part of the process.

About religion. I'm amused by those extremes on both sides that argue as if it's something that can be proven or disproven.

Norm brought up some arguments that I'd like to see answered by the devout. Not about whether God exists, but the logic behind specific theology. So far no one's really answered directly.

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Thu May 01, 2003 7:44 pm

God knew who would follow Him before He created them. He knew who would be good, and who would be bad too. He made everyone, and He knew what we would turn out as. He knew Eve would listen to the serpent, and He knew Adam would soon follow Eve's lead. He made Adam and Eve regarless, "in His Own Image" So He isn't perfect either, and He knows it.

So, since He was well aware of all that we are and would become, He made us anyway.
Create something that you know will sin, tell it if it sins you will punish it, then sit back and wait for the inevitable (since you created it to sin). Then punish away lol and punish all who are born later for what Adam and Eve did.

Then forgive it.

Why? Who knows, but it sounds a bit sadistic to me.

I wonder how many planets He's getting His jollies on lol

Leatherneck · Post by **Leatherneck** » Thu May 01, 2003 7:45 pm

I found a pretty good article on a web page that made 5 logical points about the existence of GOD. I found this (#3) to be a pretty good argument for a Creator. If this can be agreed on as a logical argument, then it would also indicate a Superior, pre-existing entity (GOD in my life). Our minds have a hard time comprehending things like pre-existence, "no beginning, no end", even time. It shows our weakness, vulnerability and need. So, if one chooses to believe in GOD, then who are they to question any aspect of his doings? I think to question GOD is impossible because we are. GOD doesn't ask, but 1 thing from us - to Love him. By doing so, there is by-product. It's not complicated, but we sure have messed it up with our greatest gift of all - FREE WILL.

Oh yeah, the argument:

"We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence--which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity".

Massa · Post by **Massa** » Thu May 01, 2003 9:27 pm

I am a christian, i belive in and worship god, and jesus christ. I dont want to ram anything down anyones throat,

God Bless you all,

Massa

nepenthe · Post by **nepenthe** » Thu May 01, 2003 9:39 pm

Time for Norm to crack out the Scientific American link. How do you argue against ingrained faith?

Sadly, ad hominem attacks found their way into what was a thread meant to portray the general disgust that ethical, potential voters had with the selection of electable officials. This discussion has managed to spill into other threads. As in religion, some thought processes are so foreign to some, it becomes impossible for them to even entertain.

shant,
david

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Thu May 01, 2003 9:46 pm

Originally posted by koldchillah
I guess after all my life of having religion shoved down my throat I finally broke free and have discovered MY true beliefs rather than joining a cult of historical mass hysteria that has a name and an imaginary entity.

The entire concept of religion is very strange to me. More people have died because of their religious beliefs and the wars derived from these beliefs than ANY other cause. What gives us mere humans the right to speculate such grand ideas and furthermore to act on these speculations against other humans who differ on their beliefs? Seems like pure evil prejudice to me.. But naahh... lets just call the concept 'religion' and let all the people of the world take their sides and may the last one standing be the correct one.. And for those who want to bring science up... how dare you? Don't you know that science is overrated and that religion extends beyond the reaches of it?

I've read the Bible (both versions).. It's a great book.. I highly recommend it.. particularly the book of Job.. But for me to say, "oh, the bible is the answer to all my questions" would be B.S. because I haven't had the chance to read all the other religious books out there in order to cross-reference.. Has anyone else out there read 'em all? If not, then how was it that you became so sure you chose the correct one? If you were born in a different place and exposed to different beliefs does that make you a lesser being than those who THINK they believe in the correct God?

I can't stand those people who criticize other for not having the same beliefs. Can't we all just get along? Oh, I forgot.. as long as religion exists.. we can't.. why? because we are human and most humans have to have an answer for everything, even when we can't prove it.

What is the purpose of life if there is no religion?
thats an easy one. THERE IS NO PURPOSE... its all merely the same as the concept of an ever-expanding universe, or the concept of infinity. All we can do is deal with it and do our best on this earth and stop worrying about what happened to Uncle Jesse or Grandma Betty or whats going to happen to me after I die... these are all BS questions we feel obligated to ask because of an instilled fear and/or curiosity we all share about death.

If people stopped believing in religion and started believing in each other, just imagine what we could accomplish as a unified species... If that happened we might actually have a chance at getting off this planet and moving our species elsewhere before this planet takes a crap on us (not in any of our lifetimes of course).. BUT nah!.. the world is like hell just as a lot of Christians say it is.. (just read the book "Left Behind" if you dont agree or the Bible if you dare) so lets just die trying to join it under one common religion because God will save those of us who are with him and to hell with the rest, right?.

Just to clarify, May your God bless all of you and to you agnostics & athiests out there, need I remind you of Jerry Springers last phrase at the end of every show?... be good to each other and to yourselves.

I'm through.

<<<<climbs into nuke-proof bunker and puts on radiation suit>>>>>

PS> wasn't tryin' to start anything.. just venting my feelings on all the religious threads I've always stayed out of.. I like a lot of you SG peeps.. especially those folding... no matter what religion you are!!

peace out, tha chillah

One thing people tend to do is lump God and religion in the same sentence, and just because you believe in God does not mean you believe in a religion with a dogma, not always true.

God did not create religion, humans did.

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Thu May 01, 2003 9:56 pm

There are quite a few Gods as far as what is believed around the world. There is the Christian God, there are the Gods that Paft believes in, and there are the Gods that North American Indians believe in. There are more, but these examples are enough.

Which of all the known Gods is the real one?

And why does the Christian God want to be "above all other Gods"?
What does He have against the other Gods? Why is He the only God (to my knowledge) that needs to be held in such high esteem? The other Gods don't demand this of us.

Just some thoughts I'm having. I don't believe any of it.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » Thu May 01, 2003 9:58 pm

Originally posted by Norm
There are quite a few Gods as far as what is believed around the world. There is the Christian God, there are the Gods that Paft believes in, and there are the Gods that North American Indians believe in. There are more, but these examples are enough.

Which of all the known Gods is the real one?

And why does the Christian God want to be "above all other Gods"?
What does He have against the other Gods? Why is He the only God (to my knowledge) that needs to be held in such high esteem? The other Gods don't demand this of us.

Just some thoughts I'm having. I don't believe any of it.

god spelled backwards is dog,when god told me that ,she was serious. !

Noevo · Post by **Noevo** » Thu May 01, 2003 9:59 pm

Originally posted by Norm

Which of all the known Gods is the real one?

the one who speaks the loudest to you . whether it be a mainstream religion god or a '75 pinto.

Roody · Post by **Roody** » Thu May 01, 2003 9:59 pm

Originally posted by Norm
There are quite a few Gods as far as what is believed around the world. There is the Christian God, there are the Gods that Paft believes in, and there are the Gods that North American Indians believe in. There are more, but these examples are enough.

Which of all the known Gods is the real one?

And why does the Christian God want to be "above all other Gods"?
What does He have against the other Gods? Why is He the only God (to my knowledge) that needs to be held in such high esteem? The other Gods don't demand this of us.

Just some thoughts I'm having. I don't believe any of it.

Mainly because THEE God isn't a God of convenience. You have to live your life according to his word. Commiting sin 6 days a week then asking for forgiveness on the 7th day wont cut it.

The term used I believe by some is the "Straight and narrow".

64bit · Post by **64bit** » Thu May 01, 2003 10:00 pm

Originally posted by Roody
Mainly because THEE God isn't a God of convenience. You have to live your life according to his word. Commiting sin 6 days a week then asking for forgiveness on the 7th day wont cut it.

The term used I believe by some is the "Straight and narrow".

Yes but which god is that? No I dont believe in God by the way.

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Thu May 01, 2003 10:01 pm

Originally posted by Roody
Mainly because THEE God isn't a God of convenience. You have to live your life according to his word. Commiting sin 6 days a week then asking for forgiveness on the 7th day wont cut it.

The term used I believe by some is the "Straight and narrow".

Who is "thee God"

Yours, one of Pafts, or the Indians, or some other God?

I really don't get it, and you haven't explained it at all.

Roody · Post by **Roody** » Thu May 01, 2003 10:03 pm

Originally posted by 64bit
Yes but which god is that? No I dont believe in God by the way.

Well 64bit. Im honestly not trying to avoid your answer. There is really only one God IMO, and that is the one in the Bible. Yes, references are made to people in there who believed in different kind of Gods, but I am talking about the one who's son is Jesus.

Sorry, I cant answer it much better then that. I assure you Im not attempting to avoid your question.

Roody · Post by **Roody** » Thu May 01, 2003 10:04 pm

Originally posted by Norm
Who is "thee God"

Yours, one of Pafts, or the Indians, or some other God?

I really don't get it, and you haven't explained it at all.

The God I am talking about is the one I mention in my response to 64Bit. I apologize if that isnt clear enough.

64bit · Post by **64bit** » Thu May 01, 2003 10:09 pm

Originally posted by Roody
Well 64bit. Im honestly not trying to avoid your answer. There is really only one God IMO, and that is the one in the Bible. Yes, references are made to people in there who believed in different kind of Gods, but I am talking about the one who's son is Jesus.

Sorry, I cant answer it much better then that. I assure you Im not attempting to avoid your question.

I understand it was basically rhetorical and I assumed you would say that. I guess mine and others question is why because you were brought up or came to believe in the Christian Interpretation of a Higher Power you are promised the Kingdom of Heaven if you live accordingly yet others that believe some what different can never get in? What of the people before Christianity was invented and the bible was written? What about Muslims and Hindus and Jews?

*edit* like I said I am not a believer Im just looking for how people interpret their faith and why they believe

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Thu May 01, 2003 10:11 pm

Originally posted by Roody
The God I am talking about is the one I mention in my response to 64Bit. I apologize if that isnt clear enough.

Sorry, I posted after you ansered 64bit, or was in the process of typing it.

OK, so your God is Thee God. The "one" and only God.

Don't you wonder why He demands that you put Him "above all other Gods"
Why would He demand this if there are no other Gods?

Why do the other Gods not demand that of their followers?

IMHO your God has some issues to deal with.

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Thu May 01, 2003 10:15 pm

I'm not trying to flame anyone or their religions.

I am trying to apply some logical reasoning, and get some input from anyone who can answer my questions with some logical answers.

Noevo · Post by **Noevo** » Thu May 01, 2003 10:18 pm

god ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g d)
n.

1. God
A) A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
B)The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
5. A very handsome man.
6. A powerful ruler or despot

ya know, I don't think I ever looked up the definition before. interesting.

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Thu May 01, 2003 10:23 pm

I have been asking the above questions, and many others for years. I have never had a logical answer yet, so don't feel bad Roody. I understand.

jeremyboycool · Post by **jeremyboycool** » Thu May 01, 2003 10:36 pm

Originally posted by Norm
I'm not trying to flame anyone or their religions.

I am trying to apply some logical reasoning, and get some input from anyone who can answer my questions with some logical answers.

Maybe it's that God does exist it's just the bible is wrong about him/her.
People are wrong about him/her.

I have a working theroy about God witch does follow the course of logic.

Roody · Post by **Roody** » Thu May 01, 2003 10:38 pm

Originally posted by Norm
I have been asking the above questions, and many others for years. I have never had a logical answer yet, so don't feel bad Roody. I understand.

No offense taken Norm. Im not sure that I would say that my God has issues to deal with though. My suggestion would be to read the Bible. It should answer a few of your questions. If you have already then I imagine it wont change your mind.

Interesting to talk about though.

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Thu May 01, 2003 10:51 pm

Originally posted by Roody
No offense taken Norm. Im not sure that I would say that my God has issues to deal with though. My suggestion would be to read the Bible. It should answer a few of your questions. If you have already then I imagine it wont change your mind.

Interesting to talk about though.

No insult intended to you, or your God Roody. It's just my own opinion after applying some logical reasoning. Your God demands a lot of His followers, and that also doesn't sit well with me.

Another thing that has never sat well with me is one of His "Ten Commandments" and how His followers interpret it. "Thou Shalt Not Kill"

To me it's simple, believe in God, have faith in Him, and there is no need to kill. Even enemies that kill you, and your loved ones. Don't fear death, God will take care of you.

That command has four words, with no elaboration at all. But His followers interpret it to mean "Thou shalt not kill, unless you feel it's right" or something like that.

I haven't read the entire Bible, but I've read quite a bit of it, and I can't believe, I can't worship, and I can't even say I like your God.
However, I do think that the commandments have helped with social order through the ages.

Hopeful · Post by **Hopeful** » Thu May 01, 2003 10:52 pm

i dont follow religion... i lead my OWN LIFE!

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Thu May 01, 2003 10:56 pm

Originally posted by Norm
There are quite a few Gods as far as what is believed around the world. There is the Christian God, there are the Gods that Paft believes in, and there are the Gods that North American Indians believe in. There are more, but these examples are enough.

Which of all the known Gods is the real one?

And why does the Christian God want to be "above all other Gods"?
What does He have against the other Gods? Why is He the only God (to my knowledge) that needs to be held in such high esteem? The other Gods don't demand this of us.

Just some thoughts I'm having. I don't believe any of it.

Norm...a fallacy in your logic.....the Christian God is the same as the Jewish and Muslim...the God of Abraham..
Jesus Christ was his son, sent because we are imperfect as you already posted.....and I'm sure you know the rest of the story...

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