Do you believe in the separation of church and state?

RoundEye · Post by **RoundEye** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:17 pm

Here’s another one of my deep thought threads.

NOT an attack on anybody’s religion or principles. Many people don’t think I believe in God, but I do. After a few replies, I’ll give one good example of why I think there should be a clear and defined line drawn between church and state.

Spammy · Post by **Spammy** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:20 pm

Repost.
Can't wait for Ghosthunters and Sava's wise words of wisdom?

chimdogger · Post by **chimdogger** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:21 pm

Yes, only because I am not religous. I am sure the opposite is true for the believers....

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:21 pm

It screams to me, "OF COURSE THEY SHOULD BE SEPARATE!"

Religion isnt cut out to govern people, and government is horrible at leading people.

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:21 pm

Yes. When religion and the state are in agreement, you know things are screwed.

RoundEye · Post by **RoundEye** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:22 pm

Spammy wrote:Repost.
Can't wait for Ghosthunters and Sava's wise words of wisdom?

Please show me where. I want to see if my view changed on the matter.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:23 pm

Burke wrote:Yes. When religion and the state are in agreement, you know things are screwed.

Yes!

Spammy · Post by **Spammy** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:24 pm

RoundEye wrote:Please show me where. I want to see if my view changed on the matter.

Well it actually isn't a repost. However it was the direction it went. I believe it was in a post my izzo about Hilary making a statement about thanking God for helping her through her husbands infidelity

RoundEye · Post by **RoundEye** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:26 pm

Burke wrote:Yes. When religion and the state are in agreement, you know things are screwed.

Screwed in what way? Any examples or links?

Trust me man, this isn’t an attack. I’m just trying to figure out if I’m correct in my stance.

Spammy · Post by **Spammy** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:27 pm

Burke wrote:Yes. When religion and the state are in agreement, you know things are screwed.

Bro, They are screwed now what would change heheyh

Spammy · Post by **Spammy** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:27 pm

RoundEye wrote:Screwed in what way? Any examples or links?

Trust me man, this isn’t an attack. I’m just trying to figure out if I’m correct in my stance.

Why would your opinion be wrong?

RoundEye · Post by **RoundEye** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:32 pm

Spammy wrote:Well it actually isn't a repost. However it was the direction it went. I believe it was in a post my izzo about Hilary making a statement about thanking God for helping her through her husbands infidelity

There’s nothing wrong with the woman believing in God to help her through a very public hard time in life. So long as she doesn’t base all here legal decisions on God.

The 10 commandments are a very good set of rules to live by in treating your fellow man, but not the say all end all when making laws.

RoundEye · Post by **RoundEye** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:37 pm

Spammy wrote:Why would your opinion be wrong?

Well, I guess the word “correct” was a bad choice of words since it’s the opposite of “wrong” and an opinion can’t technically be wrong.

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:39 pm

RoundEye wrote:Screwed in what way? Any examples or links?

Trust me man, this isn’t an attack. I’m just trying to figure out if I’m correct in my stance.

Because the two will eventually morph into a single entity.

Look at now so-called evangelicals are nothing more than mouthpieces for the government. Dobson, Rick Warren, Hagee. They influence their "flocks" (should be Jesus' flocks, but whatever, right?), more drones for the grinder.

blebs · Post by **blebs** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:40 pm

Damn it, now I have a headache from thinking this through. Partly yes and partly no, but I don't or can't decide which should be the primary.

Gixxer · Post by **Gixxer** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:57 pm

ding ding ding

Izzo · Post by **Izzo** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:58 pm

RoundEye wrote:There’s nothing wrong with the woman believing in God to help her through a very public hard time in life. So long as she doesn’t base all here legal decisions on God.

The 10 commandments are a very good set of rules to live by in treating your fellow man, but not the say all end all when making laws.

I still stand by the fact that anyone that believes g-d helped Billary get through the Oral in the Oval rather than her desire to become POTUS is an idiot.

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:05 pm

Separation of Church and State is a Myth in the US

http://www.lc.org/Resources/separation.html

The original connotation has been perverted by those with an agenda.

64bit · Post by **64bit** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:08 pm

Yes. Look at any "islamic republic" for reasons why a church should be as far from "state" matters as possible. All throughout history the Christians have stifled change and progress when they tried to run states too.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:09 pm

Brent wrote:Separation of Church and State is a Myth in the US

http://www.lc.org/Resources/separation.html

The original connotation has been perverted by those with an agenda.

Its not a myth that I think its a good idea.

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:19 pm

Brent wrote:Separation of Church and State is a Myth in the US

http://www.lc.org/Resources/separation.html

The original connotation has been perverted by those with an agenda.

To elaborate, it is there to make sure the government does not establish one single religion as the dominant one that we must all follow. It in no way states we can't have things like prayer in school or the ten commandments in courts. The latter frustrates me to no end.

People want to close their eyes to the fact that this country was founded on Christian morals and beliefs, no ifs and or buts about that. Saying otherwise denies our past and denies the thought patterns to conceive what the founders were thinking when they created our constitution.

I've been of the belief that we should have a religion class in schools. You can teach religion without preaching it. Religion is VERY important in the world, and our youth of today are not receiving education in it. Whether you like it or not you will have to deal with religious issues and topics and people in your adulthood. Kids should be givin the opportunity to learn about it in a schooled environment so that they are well informed about the differences in the religions when they grow up.

There are many people right now who know jack squat about Islam, so many stereotypes and misbeliefs people are working off of. We need education, and we should have gotten it in school, but because of this fear and myth of "separation of church and state" that is being shoved down our throats we are growing up ignorant on these matters. I believe in other countries they do have religion classes in grade/junior high/high school, for example in the UK.

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:29 pm

Sorry, teaching religion IS preaching it, unless you plan to cover every religion in history (edit) equally.

Christians need to quit with this "founded on Christian principles" stuff about the country. Earthly governments are created, funded, and administrated by human beings and are inherently flawed; there is no reason for a Christian to worry about influencing government. Government was corrupt in the first century and always will be, yet the believers went on.

Again...if you let the two merge, you'll get neither faith nor government.

EDIT: To go along with my previous post, here's a good link.

http://www.jbs.org/node/5122

RoundEye · Post by **RoundEye** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:46 pm

OK, this is the inner workings of a scrambled egg mind, if you disagree please feel free to say so.

I am not God, therefore I should not judge my fellow man. It is not my job to do so.

That being said, I believe in gay marriage. It is not my position to define love, or a persons desire to commit to another person for life on earth.
As long as they both sign their names in the family bible, they realize that they are making a promise of commitment to each other and God. If it really is a sin in God’s eyes, may God have mercy on their souls. There should be no other person on this planet they should have to answer to.

That brings me to asking the state for permission to get married by getting a marriage license. I didn’t want a license when I got married, but I did it to make my wife happy. Believe me in this, but I know a man who filed a lawsuit when the state tried to force him into getting a marriage license, and won. The state CAN NOT force you into a contract when it is your God given right to get married.

You have to understand what a license is. Black’s law dictionary defines license as this,

… The permission by competent authority to do an act which without such permission, would be illegal….

How could getting married without a license be illegal when getting married is a God given right? When you get a marriage license you are entering into a contract with the state for the fruits of you labor. The fruits of your labor are your children and every penny you have and everything you have ever bought.

Why do you think that you sign your driver’s license and marriage license? It’s not for signature verification as they lead you to believe. It is because you entered into a contract with the state to follow their rules. The lady behind the counter at the DMV is a witness to your signature, and that’s why we have best men and maids of honor, they are all witnesses into you entering a legal contract with the state. They can revoke your drivers license if you screw up. And by signing that marriage license, you entered into a contract with the state. They can tell you what school your kids have to attend, or even take your children by law if they think you are a bad parent. You signed the contract, remember?

Why do you think you have to stand before a judge during a divorce? He has the final say so in which parent the child goes to, who gets what money and property in settlement. Why does he have this authority? Because you signed a state contract dumb ass !!!

You gave the state permission to have authority over your marriage, your children and any penny you and your wife ever earned.
So yes, separate church and state, and let God hand out the final judgments. It is not out place as mankind to do Gods work for him pertaining to law.

RoundEye · Post by **RoundEye** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:59 pm

Brent wrote:To elaborate, it is there to make sure the government does not establish one single religion as the dominant one that we must all follow. It in no way states we can't have things like prayer in school or the ten commandments in courts. The latter frustrates me to no end.

People want to close their eyes to the fact that this country was founded on Christian morals and beliefs, no ifs and or buts about that. Saying otherwise denies our past and denies the thought patterns to conceive what the founders were thinking when they created our constitution.

I've been of the belief that we should have a religion class in schools. You can teach religion without preaching it. Religion is VERY important in the world, and our youth of today are not receiving education in it. Whether you like it or not you will have to deal with religious issues and topics and people in your adulthood. Kids should be givin the opportunity to learn about it in a schooled environment so that they are well informed about the differences in the religions when they grow up.

There are many people right now who know jack squat about Islam, so many stereotypes and misbeliefs people are working off of. We need education, and we should have gotten it in school, but because of this fear and myth of "separation of church and state" that is being shoved down our throats we are growing up ignorant on these matters. I believe in other countries they do have religion classes in grade/junior high/high school, for example in the UK.

I’m sorry man, but your way of thinking is from the medieval Christian crusader times, which the church later apologized for. It’s time for you to rethink some things that you stand for.

I’m not trying to get you to question your faith, no doubt you believe in God. But you should try to understand that every person in this world does not. It is not your position to force your beliefs on them.

RoundEye · Post by **RoundEye** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:03 pm

Brent, I'm going to blow your mind a little more here, about the seperation of church and state.

5 Reasons Why Christians Should Not Obtain a State Marriage License

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:04 pm

Izzo wrote:I still stand by the fact that anyone that believes g-d helped Billary get through the Oral in the Oval rather than her desire to become POTUS is an idiot.

My personal opinion on that matter is that those who profess to know exactly how anyone else feels about their own faith, the direction of their lives and the way they cope with circumstances beyond their control, tend to do this to cover up for things they feel are missing in their own lives.

--------------

Of course there should be a seperation between church and state. If you lived in Idaho or Utah, you might tend to see my feelings on this a little better.

Izzo · Post by **Izzo** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:23 pm

downhill wrote:My personal opinion on that matter is that those who profess to know exactly how anyone else feels about their own faith, the direction of their lives and the way they cope with circumstances beyond their control, tend to do this to cover up for things they feel are missing in their own lives.

--------------

Of course there should be a seperation between church and state. If you lived in Idaho or Utah, you might tend to see my feelings on this a little better.

that's wonderful

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:26 pm

I am sorry, but you CAN tech religion without preaching it. There are world religion classes in college, but none exist in our public schools, and I think they should.

RoundEye · Post by **RoundEye** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:40 pm

Brent wrote:I am sorry, but you CAN tech religion without preaching it. There are world religion classes in college, but none exist in our public schools, and I think they should.

Brent, I really can appreciate your love of God, but not everybody does. When it is by choice it is accepted, when it is a federal mandate, it is forced upon you and hated by many.

In public school you are mandated by state law to attend. Education is being forced down your throat whether you like it or not. When you get older, you have a choice in where you attend college. If you want to follow the Christian ideals, then fine. It should not be forced upon you.

Why do you think the state enacted common law marriages after 7-10 years? So that they could gain control over you, your wife and children. That way the government has just given themselves control over very personal matters in your life.

If your thinking was not in the moral majority view of things, trust me, you would feel persecuted instead of righteous.

Rainbow · Post by **Rainbow** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:56 pm

There only seperated when its "convenient" for the church..ie not having to pay into unemployment etc etc

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:14 pm

I'll say it a third time, you can teach religion without preaching religion.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:31 pm

Brent wrote:I'll say it a third time, you can teach religion without preaching religion.

Ya, but if I dont beleive, and i have a kid in school, they better not grade him on it.

In catholic school I always missed out on honors because of religion class, and no honors meant I couldnt I coulndt take advanced math, even though i was qualified otherwise and no spanish.

TonyT · Post by **TonyT** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:42 pm

Brent is very right about one key thing in this thread, this USA was founded by a majority who were Christians OR who followed and practiced the teachings of Christ. Some of our founding fathers would cringe if there were called "Christians", though they did agree with the teachings of Christianity, e.g. the moral teachings and laws about how man should treat his fellow man.

This country was populated initially with people who had endured religious percecution in EU. Upholding religious freedom was the initial purpose for the forming of our nation. Taxation by the UK actually played little part in it by comparison.

Many of these Christian teachings are taught within other religiouns as well. Christ was not the first spiritual leader to say "do unto others as you would have them do to you". That concept predates Christ by several thousand years.

What our founding fathers tried to do was setup a nation that could endure despite the sometimes malicious nature of man himself. Religious influenced governments have caused great hardship upon man for a thousand+ years. The Catholic church forced itself upon the world > begat the Crusades where hundreds of thousands died if they refused Christ. The French govt did their share too, perverting Christianity with a mix of masochism and sadism.

Our founding fathers sought to give the power of choice to the people of the nation so as to avoid or thwart any attempt by the federal govt or religious groups from attaining any sort of dominant control over the nation's citizens.

Unfortunately, too few here at SG have ever read Will Durant and rely upon news media, TV & Hollywood for the facts about religions and govts.

Re religion in schools:
Religion teaching in schools used to be the predominant method of educating people in the subjects of morals & ethics. Millions came through those schools unscatheed. Our society was better off then too, declining, but not as rapidly as after religion teaching was removed from public schools.

It was NOT wrong to remove religion from schools, what was wrong is that it was not replaced with anything worthwhile that taught anything at all about morals and ethics as subjects that could be applied to one's life.

Unfortunately, religion in schools was replaced with psychology, who teaches that man is an animal and that there is no such thing as the soul and that one is not responsible for one's action because one has some mental disorder. (strange, since the word psych ology actually means "study of the spirit")

Do not think for one minute that this was accidental. It was the psychologists who came up with the idea to remove religion from schools, it was their movement that influenced our govt to do so. And it was a part of a plan that the American Psychiatric Assoc began & implemented last century. The meeting actually took place at the White House in 1941. (got little press at the time while the nation readied for war)

A separation of chuch and state IS necessary and best so as to prevent any religion that is political from once agaiin dominating us. And any religion that is political in nature is less than a religion, has ceased being a religion and has forgotton its purposes as a religion.

cybotron r_9 · Post by **cybotron r_9** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:52 pm

Brent wrote:I'll say it a third time, you can teach religion without preaching religion.

You can teach religion all you want, just don't do it in our public schools - that's what man made the church for - if your teachin it you're preachin it!! So if us nonbelivers want to remain ingnorant to your fantasy world that is our decision - unless you want to give up your tax free status and call it the Science of Christianity.

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:00 pm

cybotron r_9 wrote:You can teach religion all you want, just don't do it in our public schools - that's what man made the church for - if your teachin it you're preachin it!! So if us nonbelivers want to remain ingnorant to your fantasy world that is our decision - unless you want to give up your tax free status and call it the Science of Christianity.

So you want you and your kids to remain ignorant of something you don't agree with or like, but is in fact a big part of this world and a fact that most of it is religious in some sort and a fact you will have to deal with people who are religious in your life. That's great, let's all just remain ignorant and move back into the dark ages. I could say this about anything I don't like, might as well take math out of schools too since I don't like it.

Have you ever taken a world religion course in college?

I can't fathom how you all don't understand that you can teach about religion and what the different religions believe, and their histories, without advocating believing it.

People in America are so very misinformed about religion, and it is because we aren't taught about it. Aren't schools there to educate? Religion is a BIG part of our world, past, present, and future, it should be something we are educated in just like science, history and math.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:21 pm

Brent how would you suggest it be taught in the public schools?

cybotron r_9 · Post by **cybotron r_9** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:23 pm

Brent, it's not that I don't agree or dislike religion, it's more along the lines that I don't believe - religion and gods are a belief, not fact or science - such as math.

How are we misinformed about religion?

Religion is a big part of our world, and it may be something you hold close to your heart, but it is still a belief - not fact.

If I want to believe in Marty Moose as my religion, do you have a problem with that being taught in schools?

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:28 pm

Science is a belief

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:30 pm

Brent wrote:Science is a belief

No, its science

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:33 pm

cybotron r_9 wrote:
Religion is a big part of our world, and it may be something you hold close to your heart, but it is still a belief - not fact.

Here's the kicker though. While those who belive in a deity can't prove that deity exits......neither can anyone prove it doesn't.

The one thing that religion can do that athism doesn't is provide hope, and give a foundition for values that elevate mankind for the better.