Attention SGer's...we are not winning the battles!

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Wed Jul 17, 2002 8:52 pm

Downhill reported on this yesterday but it seems to have not even caused so much as a ripple in this forum.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Jul15.html

House Backs Stiffer Cyber-Crime Penalties

Life in prison for hacking!?!?!

Come on folks! This is America!

While I don't agree with malicious hacking per se, this bill and a few others that have been passed have seriously eroded our right to privacy, due process, and illegal search and seizure.

There is now a citizens group dedicated to SPYING ON YOU!
http://www.citizencorps.gov/tips.html

This is outrageous!

We are encouraging the infamous witch hunt...and you could be the target simply because most people don't understand technology!

Actually there is too much to even post on this subject but let me show you where to start...it's a CNET web page that has alot of links to the current policies and laws and groups which have been given police powers or broadened police powers to SPY ON YOU!!!!

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-944555.html?tag=fd_top

This is very disturbing folks....not to mention that for the first time, both political parties are united against us!!!!

This is not the bi-partisanship that I envisioned when Bush came to power.

I think we all need to take a closer look at the news and current events because pretty soon, PC's and the INTERNET will be illegal, mp3's will be illegal, DivX, P2P, Wi-Fi, will all be illegal if we don't keep an eye on these ignorant politicians.

but more importantly, we will be less FREE than what we already are....and just how free are we right now? Our freedom is quickly becoming an illusion....an oasis in the desert.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Wed Jul 17, 2002 9:04 pm

Is this a witch hunt or policing? It is quite evident that the wildspace that is the net permits far more freedom than is allowed in polite society. Like you, however, I never trust the government or big business to decide the level "intrusion" necessary to keep America a safe place for democracy....

They are watching but who is watching them.

shant,
david

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Wed Jul 17, 2002 9:09 pm

*sighs*

Did I not just post a link to the TIPS thing not two days ago?

We've been losing the battle since 1957, when the First Amendment was stomped on and "god" was added to our pledge and money.

This is just more along the road to a dictatorship.

Edit 2: Don't forget that due to the non-existant "war", they can keep you detained for as long as they want with no charges against you, just suspicion of terrorism.

Read the (Un-)Patriot Act here:

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance ... _bill.html

Take a look at the freedoms you lose due to it.

Want a quote from the great G.W. Busch?

"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier...just as long as I'm the dictator."

-- George W. Bush, Washington, DC, Dec 18, 2000, during his first trip to Washington as President-Elect

We've WAY lost, UOD. It's just that now.. after people become less of sheep due to 9/11.. we're noticing it.

Edit 3: http://www.lp.org

Link to the Libertarian Party. They believe in personal and economic freedom, AND they hold the constution sacred. *gasp*.

Edit: See my signature.

ExarKun · Post by **ExarKun** » Wed Jul 17, 2002 10:03 pm

America has f*cking sucked for a long time, the only problem is there isn't really any other country thats much better.. well maybe Zimbabwe.. but I don't think they have broadband

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Wed Jul 17, 2002 10:30 pm

I wondered if anyone was going to catch that.

A thought. Is it possible that the human species just goes through an upchuck once in a while?

The Spanish Inquisition?

The Salem Witch Hunts?

And in my own lifetime, the McCarthy years and the 10 year campaign to hang Bill Clinton? A pattern?

Who's behind it?

Who stands to gain?

You figure out that out and we have somewhere to start.

ExarKan
America has f*cking sucked for a long time, the only problem is there isn't really any other country thats much better.. well maybe Zimbabwe.. but I don't think they have broadband

Hummm.....I'd have to agree to disagree with that statement. Even with the various problems we face here...it's still one hell of a place to live. Doubt it? Why do so many people still try and immigrate here? And I don't see any mad rush at the gates to leave.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Wed Jul 17, 2002 11:12 pm

Another thought.

About the Salem Witch trials. It's known that the grain harvest wasn't the best during that time. Ergot fungus may have been present.

I wonder if the various hosts of Fox news are feed a steady diet of ham on moldy rye bread? It might explain much......

The again, people will say anything when the color green shows it's face.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Wed Jul 17, 2002 11:21 pm

With all do respect to my friends here, but this smatters of a cartoon I read in college. It touched on how nuisances and inconveniences are blown out of proportion. This is not the Bataan Death march or a Russian pogrom.
The internet, in its present ubiquitous form, is a new medium with precious few rules or method of judicature. Black hats who do damage should be punished. If you believe that the penalties are rather draconian, you should read the punishments meted out to lower profile white collar criminals.

UOD says....

While I don't agree with malicious hacking per se, this bill and a few others that have been passed have seriously eroded our right to privacy, due process, and illegal search and seizure.

The drug laws that allow the police force to STEAL your house and car for a couple of joints BEFORE you ever see a judge is quite telling of what we are to expect.

The laws governing the net require people of said community to take part in them.

shant,
david

Faust · Post by **Faust** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 6:06 am

the government is a master of deflecting attention and manipulating collective "intelligence" of the sheep of our society.

the white house or the pentagon gets mud on its face?....... manufacture or glorify something else for the masses to feed on.

it makes me retch.

if stupidity were painful, 80% of the nation would be walking around with an IV dripping morphine.

ColdFusion · Post by **ColdFusion** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 6:32 am

does this apply to canadians

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 6:48 am

Originally posted by downhill
Another thought.

About the Salem Witch trials. It's known that the grain harvest wasn't the best during that time. Ergot fungus may have been present.

I wonder if the various hosts of Fox news are feed a steady diet of ham on moldy rye bread? It might explain much......

The again, people will say anything when the color green shows it's face.

Very clever, surprised I missed this gem!!

SeedOfChaos · Post by **SeedOfChaos** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 6:07 pm

Well, let me put it this way, I'm trying very hard to keep my eyes on such news. There appears to be A LOT of it lately. I am worried about it, to say the least.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Thu Jul 18, 2002 11:57 pm

Thanks david...

About your post...the top link that UOD posted, bothers me in the idea that internet crime is worse than any white collar crime. Hell, you haven't even seen one single indictment for an Enron employee....I'm sure the SEC can figure out something.

The second link should give everyone the Willey's. This is what McCarthy was trying to do...Same thing that your communist brother was expected to do in the defunct U.S.S.R.

Now I'd agree if you knew someone was an axe murderer, sure I'd be first in line to spill the beans...
However in this instance, it looks more like political grandstanding for the National Enquirer and Judge Judy bunch. Now this scares the crap outa me.

How would you like to have Dr. Lora as a neighbor with this mindset in place??

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 5:04 pm

Another link....

http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/6027

The Spy Who Reads Your Meter
Ashcroft's Plan To Turn Your Neighbors Into Snoops

This is a VERY interesting article.

And a question?

If the idea of a Homeland Security Cabinet member is such a big deal? Why wasn't Tom Ridge, Ashcroft, and Powell even ask to help formulate how and what the postition even entailed?

Who decided? Ari? Strange.....

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 5:13 pm

Oh.. ****.

I'm scared!!!

http://www.progressive.org/0901/roth0102.html

What the heck is going on in the world? Please, explain?

GatoNanashi · Post by **GatoNanashi** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 5:58 pm

Originally posted by Paft
Oh.. ****.

I'm scared!!!

http://www.progressive.org/0901/roth0102.html

What the heck is going on in the world? Please, explain?

WTF?! That is complete bullsh@t! If they came to my door talking about "Un-American" crap I would ask them to go read the bill of rights and constitution and remind them that they are on MY property-a place where I can hang nazi sh@t if I wanted.

(Dont get me wrong, I would go back in time and personally execute hitler if I could)

This kind of crap is going to eventually get out of hand..

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 6:14 pm

The majority voted for Bush, and the majority agree with his policies.

That's Democracy.

Did I mention that the majority are asleep at the wheel ?

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 6:15 pm

You're wrong, Norm.

The majority voted for Gore - Bush was selected.

Remember Florida? The Republicans cheated. Remember?

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 6:23 pm

Yes, I remember your last presidential election being a little on the 'suspect' side.

Like I posted a while back, and still believe.....

Your military establishment needs to get to the bottom of what's REALLY going on at the "TOP". They need to overtake the FBI, Secret Service, and the CIA headquarters for the sake of 'National Security". There's something very fishy going on at the most upper levels.

I see dark days ahead for Americans.

DG · Post by DG » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:06 pm

Originally posted by Paft
You're wrong, Norm.

The majority voted for Gore - Bush was selected.

Remember Florida? The Republicans cheated. Remember?

hahahahahaha, too bad all those democratic voters didnt know how to use a simple ballot.

Originally posted by ExarKun

America has f*cking sucked for a long time, the only problem is there isn't really any other country thats much better.. well maybe Zimbabwe.. but I don't think they have broadband

it cant suck that bad then, can it?

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:08 pm

Originally posted by DG
hahahahahaha, too bad all those democratic voters didnt know how to use a simple ballot.

Ha. Ha. It was the republicans who didn't know how to use a ballot.

Also, you can still say that when you look at the Chimp in control, George (Hitler) Bush?

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:13 pm

Originally posted by Norm
The majority voted for Bush, and the majority agree with his policies.

That's Democracy.

Did I mention that the majority are asleep at the wheel ?

We have a two party system. It will be a very long time before another can enter the fray to allow the US citizenry a real choice. I wish to stress that, we have precious little choice in this democracy at the higher levels of government.

shant,
david

DG · Post by DG » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:14 pm

Originally posted by Paft

Ha. Ha. It was the republicans who didn't know how to use a ballot.

Also, you can still say that when you look at the Chimp in control, George (Hitler) Bush?

when you resort to juvenile name-calling and insults you cant be taken very seriously and it usually illustrates the fact that you lack facts to base your argument.

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:35 pm

Originally posted by DG
when you resort to juvenile name-calling and insults you cant be taken very seriously and it usually illustrates the fact that you lack facts to base your argument.

Yes, I know that. But it also serves to illustrate that I despise the person who is supposed to be running this country.

The economy's down, we're in a non-existant war, our civil liberties are non-existant..

Should I like him? No!

DG · Post by DG » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:51 pm

Originally posted by Paft

Yes, I know that. But it also serves to illustrate that I despise the person who is supposed to be running this country.

The economy's down, we're in a non-existant war, our civil liberties are non-existant..

Should I like him? No!

bush is the easy target for the economy being down, its way too easy to blame the president for poor economy. just like it is real easy for the president to claim responsibility for a good economy (clinton)... buy american, we import way more than we export which affects our economy.

how is it a "non-existent" war? i think people who have had loved ones die in afghanistan would disagree with you on that front.

as far as civil liberties, im not sure which you are making reference to...

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:58 pm

Originally posted by DG
bush is the easy target for the economy being down, its way too easy to blame the president for poor economy. just like it is real easy for the president to claim responsibility for a good economy (clinton)... buy american, we import way more than we export which affects our economy.

how is it a "non-existent" war? i think people who have had loved ones die in afghanistan would disagree with you on that front.

as far as civil liberties, im not sure which you are making reference to...

Explain why, then, we're operating in the red AGAIN for the first time since Clinton?

Congress never declared war. This means that there is no real war. Get it?

Constution. Read the Patriot Act, or any other act past 9/11.

GatoNanashi · Post by **GatoNanashi** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 7:58 pm

Fact is as much as I hate Bush, you cant blame it all on him. Personally I think hes weak because hes being assnailed by his cabnet. I mean does he think on his own at all? Probably not. I agree with Norm in that some serious sh!t is going to go down before all this is revealed and resolved...the whole situation wreaks...

DG · Post by DG » Fri Jul 19, 2002 8:23 pm

Originally posted by Paft

Explain why, then, we're operating in the red AGAIN for the first time since Clinton?

Congress never declared war. This means that there is no real war. Get it?

Constution. Read the Patriot Act, or any other act past 9/11.

we are operating in the red because clinton downsized the military so much that when it came time to defend this country we needed funds that didnt exist thanks to his brilliant defense strategy.

thats a good way to cover yourself on your war comment because you and i both know you werent trying to go that direction with your statement because it doesnt make sense. you and i both know war is used vaguely, example people vietnam war, korean war, and gulf war.

your civil liberties arent in jeopardy, youre being influenced by the media. the media is very influential. by saying bush is going to use the patriotic act to wield his vast new power to undermine peoples civil liberties the public is in an uproar.

if the media comes out and says the economy is good the public will run to the stock market and start investing without a second thought.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 10:08 pm

Is there anyway we can keep this on topic?

If you gents want to debate the economy and Clinton military, vs Bush military and how that all relates...start a new thread. Thanks.

One more thing, please...let's be civil. All opinions are welcome. No need to bait or flame.

By the way, if you would like to wait 10 days.....I'd be happy to refute some of the outlandish statements made about just such subject.

brembo · Post by **brembo** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 10:25 pm

*sits on fence*

Ahhhh, Noevo has some awesome chairs for this.

GatoNanashi · Post by **GatoNanashi** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 10:28 pm

*Is almost tempted to join Brembo on the fence..*

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 10:53 pm

Originally posted by DG
we are operating in the red because clinton downsized the military so much that when it came time to defend this country we needed funds that didnt exist thanks to his brilliant defense strategy.

Ok. Let me get this straight for you.

Clinton downsized the military because his foreign policy didn't consist of giving the (figurative) bird to everyone else. He was working for peace, and if you could look up from his **** for a second you'd see that.

thats a good way to cover yourself on your war comment because you and i both know you werent trying to go that direction with your statement because it doesnt make sense. you and i both know war is used vaguely, example people vietnam war, korean war, and gulf war.

You presume to "know" what I meant. What I meant was exactly that - we are not in a war. You and I both know that it isn't - you cannot declare war on an idea. Impossible for any logical thinker to do.

your civil liberties arent in jeopardy, youre being influenced by the media. the media is very influential. by saying bush is going to use the patriotic act to wield his vast new power to undermine peoples civil liberties the public is in an uproar.

if the media comes out and says the economy is good the public will run to the stock market and start investing without a second thought.

Did you honestly believe what you just said? When I can't own a copy of the Quran, or an anti-Bush poster, or the Anarchist Cookbook without the Gestapo - erm, Secret Service (through TIPS) jumping on my arse about it.. I would say that's quite an erosion of civil liberties.

As for the Media.. when was the last time you watched it? Or read a newspaper? They are /supporting/ this crap, not knocking it. The so-called "liberal media" is glossing over issues paramount to American Freedom.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Fri Jul 19, 2002 10:56 pm

Stay on topic please...

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 12:59 am

thanks for all the replies so far.

The reason why I posted this was to show that there are many new bills/acts/policies/agencies/laws/so on and so forth that have come to existence without so much as one ioda of public input/debate.

In other words....while most Americans are caught up in the kidnappings and beatings reports that have overwhelmed the mass media...the government is busy at work...producing legislation and policy that may interfere with your FREEDOM.

So if you are a citizen...and one who cares about their freedom...then I suggest that you keep a watchful eye on your government.

I don't care wether you agree or disagree with the issues....as long as you know what the issues are.

I think we have been bamboozled...hoodwinked...deceived!!!!

The government is always looking to restrict your rights...and sometimes they do that in conjunction with big business interests like the RIAA and MPAA.

---more to follow

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:03 am

Originally posted by UOD
---more to follow

That, .......you can bank on.

More policies are being considered, as the resistance dwindles.

UnitedWeStand · Post by **UnitedWeStand** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:29 am

UOD, even though we're losing some of our rights in the USA. its not so much the Politicians, its the demand for Peace.. right now the United States is fighting to stay ahead finanacially, and even though We The People of The United States, are forever to be bashed and talked bad about in even the slightest undertone, We will Still not see a dime from any of the other countries if we should happen to need it.. But lets look at the Value of America,
Even if PC's and the INTERNET become illegal, mp3s be illegal, DivX, P2P, Wi-Fi and the sort.. its not Going to change if we don't let it change.. Get out and Vote.. if you are Voting your making a difference. I've written to the Governor, the Senator, the States Representative, not yet the President (only because he's too busy to read mail and too scared to touch any mail), but I've written severral times to help make a difference, and thats what it takes.. if there were more people like me there would not be any problems in the world. There wouldn't be any boxes of Chocolates, with out labels telling you whats inside..
I agree with you. And for those in the USA that don't get involved with politics, often become rebels, and then they really feel like they're freedom has been stripped away from them.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:51 am

Laws are meant to restrict "freedoms". Theft is one of those liberties that some netizens believe they are owed with their monthly ISP fee.
The idea is that the sacrifice of certain freedoms are intended to promote common weal. It is an ideologic discussion to how much is bartered for society's benefit.

I am on the fence with this puppy. Do I trust a government which I had some smal part of electing or an autocratic big business? Do I favoring policing that impinges my privacy for the possible increase in safety? Hmmm... the last one sounds like a firewall option.

whatever....
shant,
david

DG · Post by DG » Sat Jul 20, 2002 3:28 am

Originally posted by Paft

...if you could look up from his **** for a second you'd see that.

some peoples children... grow up