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Damn, I didn't realize how bad that incident was until now US Troops dragged through the streets of Mogadishu!!! That's freakin insane. I had seen that pic and video before, but I didn't realize that it was an American US Army Ranger. Whoa, I know it was back in 93, but anyone here remember that tragic event? Is it true that the Rangers killed over 1,000 Somalians? I know that there some military peeps here that could fill me in with more detail


www2.localaccess.com/dixon/tour/tour.htm/default.htm

If I remember correctly, this where there were a couple snipers in another helicopter, and after repeated requests, they were finally allowed to go down and help defend their comrades. The snipers were eventually killed, but I think they helped a lot of other soldiers live. I think they were given awards posthumously. A coworker who used to be in the army said that they were making a movie about it, so maybe we'll see it in the not too distant future.

Read about the events here:

http://www.philly.com/packages/somalia/nov16/rang16.asp

The book is also very good, BlackHawk Down by Mark Bowden. Hell of a story.

The bottom line is this: That incident was horrendous but preventable. President Clinton had no BACKBONE! He was a poor CIC and he was a spineless jellyfish.

If you are going to send in the troops you have to have 3 things...you have to have a clear objective, you have to be committed, and you have to have a clear exit plan.

President Clinton always and only went so far in his military actions. That gets people killed on both sides of the fence...soldiers and innocent civilians.

Being that we were given the withdrawl order after that incident...Osama smelled blood. To this day all Osama talks about is our low morale in the military as he always points out the failure of our military campaign in Somalia.

Thats why Osama does what he does. The ratbastard did it to us again in the embassy bombings. What did President Clinton do? Cruise missle attacks. Thats not displaying committment to the cause.

Osama knew that too. He knew that the U.S. wouldn't respond all throughout the Clinton Presidency.

I'm not taking political sides here...actions speak louder than words. Clinton had every opportunity to thwart these attacks. He knowingly decided not to.

Bush knows that we must stand our ground with these knuckleheads if we are to gain our respect back. He even knows of the mistake that his father made during the Gulf War...we should have eliminated Saddam and armed the Kurds in the North...he was a beaten man and it would have worked. Bush was wrong...way wrong in not taking advantage of that.

The Gulf War was designed to setback Saddam 10 years...guess what? It's been 10 years. And now we have no idea what chemical or biological capabilities Saddam has because Clinton wouldn't stay put in Iraq with the UN inspection team. and the UN can't do anything without us on their own. so here we are ten years later and even more unstable.

We have 6,000+ dead in America and now the task is much harder. Had we eliminated Saddam, we wouldn't have had a reason to stay put in Saudi Arabia and therefore Osama wouldn't be so insane towards removing us from his homeland.

I'm sorry but I have to call it like it is.

Thanx for your insight UOD and thanx for that link Magg, it's pretty good.

Curious UOD.....

Did Clinton have any military advisors? You know, Generals, Admirals.... The kind of guys who are professionals at this wetwork... I would have thought they had a reasonable idea of what they were doing.


Funny, I remember the senior Bush fishing in Kennebunkport while our boys fried in the Saudi sands.... Besides... Colin Powell pressed the Pres not to go further, if memory serves.

Then again, this is not political.

david

Originally posted by Prey521
Thanx for your insight UOD and thanx for that link Magg, it's pretty good.

Anytime. It takes a while to read all 30 chapters, but it's worth it.

I've seen a GOOD picture of that soldier who was dragged through the streets, and if I can find it, it SHOULD be seen. That grainy picture doesn't give the situation justice, of what really happened.

Originally posted by BIGJIMSLATE
I've seen a GOOD picture of that soldier who was dragged through the streets, and if I can find it, it SHOULD be seen. That grainy picture doesn't give the situation justice, of what really happened.

I've seen the video, it's much worse

In 1998, Clinton gave the CIA orders to the effect that it was ok to assinate Osama. That same order is in effect today. The problem was, in finding him. We rely too much on electronics and so forth. Not enough spies in the mideast. Now that's easy enough to figure out eh?

It gets really old, seeing the far right tying to blame the last administration for what happened. Now why would that be?

Originally posted by Hell_Yes
Curious UOD.....

Did Clinton have any military advisors? You know, Generals, Admirals.... The kind of guys who are professionals at this wetwork... I would have thought they had a reasonable idea of what they were doing.


Funny, I remember the senior Bush fishing in Kennebunkport while our boys fried in the Saudi sands.... Besides... Colin Powell pressed the Pres not to go further, if memory serves.

Then again, this is not political.

david

The whole operation was ran by top military brass.

The problem was that there wasn't any plans for a mishap, so it took awhile for nearby support troops to get to the downed soldiers.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 73-5731032

Awesome book that describes everything in details and even has pictures of what happened.

It was a terrible tragedy.

Originally posted by Hell_Yes
Curious UOD.....

Did Clinton have any military advisors? You know, Generals, Admirals.... The kind of guys who are professionals at this wetwork... I would have thought they had a reasonable idea of what they were doing.


Funny, I remember the senior Bush fishing in Kennebunkport while our boys fried in the Saudi sands.... Besides... Colin Powell pressed the Pres not to go further, if memory serves.

Then again, this is not political.

david

Uhh...this isn't political. I call it like I see it. Bush Sr. screwed up just like the rest. George Bush Sr. thought the knowledge gained from being in the CIA was more valuable than that of Gen. Schwarzkoph or Gen Horner.

Have you ever met either one of those Generals David? I have and it was on the battlefield. And I can tell you that the top brass was all for exterminating that bastard and arming the kurds. Hell I should just tell you that the fighting went on for months but you probably wouldn't believe me. ( ask the people that were over there what the underground slogan was..."not one more lie")

Bill Clinton thought his education gave him a stand on higher moral ground...so therefore he too ignored the advice of the military until it was too late.

Since you fail to believe me, maybe I should put you in touch with my father, an Army veteran of Viet Nam, recipient of the Purple Heart, and recent retiree in the grade of Colonel. My father used to teach at ....I'm saying too much now.

Screw it

Originally posted by downhill
In 1998, Clinton gave the CIA orders to the effect that it was ok to assinate Osama. That same order is in effect today. The problem was, in finding him. We rely too much on electronics and so forth. Not enough spies in the mideast. Now that's easy enough to figure out eh?

It gets really old, seeing the far right tying to blame the last administration for what happened. Now why would that be?

yeah...1998...well I guess since you have branded me the far right with your leftist remarks I guess once again I will provide you with a far right answer...I mean really Downhill, what choice do you give me?

1998 was too late....Mogadishu was on Oct 3 1993. Are you going to sit there and tell me that 5 years is ok to respond? Also, I remember my supervisor making a comment to me while in somalia that the Army was treating them so well because the Air Force didn't have any support people there....do you see that as a sign of committment by the administration?

Ahhh...it doesn't mattter, you won't listen to reason. I only bring this is up in hope s to make you aware of what really happened so that you, the taxpayer, won't let it happen again.

I could give a rats as$$ who was in power at the time...like I said a million times before and I'll keep repeating it...I call it like I see it.

BTW...I'm an independent. I vote with common sense, therefore I'm not bound by the stupidity of either party!

I just checked out this site and I almost don't remember it let alone have any idea it was any where near that bad. Hear we go again.

I don't remember that incident at all, very sad though... damn, I had my fricking head in the sand for the better part of that decade... how sad and pathetic.......

Originally posted by uod2001


Uhh...this isn't political. I call it like I see it. Bush Sr. screwed up just like the rest. George Bush Sr. thought the knowledge gained from being in the CIA was more valuable than that of Gen. Schwarzkoph or Gen Horner.

Have you ever met either one of those Generals David? I have and it was on the battlefield. And I can tell you that the top brass was all for exterminating that bastard and arming the kurds. Hell I should just tell you that the fighting went on for months but you probably wouldn't believe me. ( ask the people that were over there what the underground slogan was..."not one more lie")

Bill Clinton thought his education gave him a stand on higher moral ground...so therefore he too ignored the advice of the military until it was too late.

Since you fail to believe me, maybe I should put you in touch with my father, an Army veteran of Viet Nam, recipient of the Purple Heart, and recent retiree in the grade of Colonel. My father used to teach at ....I'm saying too much now.

Screw it

Gen Colin Powell was not for pressing on and Bush listened to him. Being the FORMER head of the CIA does not me he was in touch with present goings on. Magg's linked article (Thank you, Magg) gave insight to the Somolia debacle and I fail to see where Clinton plays in it. Clinton, like Bush before him had military advisors, Generals etc, to give him the lay of the land.

Evan, I have family that fought in WWII, Korea and Vietnam and friends in the Gulf War and Lebanon. If I need a lesson, I could infringe upon them for it. However, my friend, to say you are non-partisan is clearly incorrect. The left of center folks are trying to keep their mouths shut and stand behind the president. Like some of the GOP politicos, you are using this opportunity to still find faults with Clinton.

david

Originally posted by Hell_Yes


Gen Colin Powell was not for pressing on and Bush listened to him. Being the FORMER head of the CIA does not me he was in touch with present goings on. Magg's linked article (Thank you, Magg) gave insight to the Somolia debacle and I fail to see where Clinton plays in it. Clinton, like Bush before him had military advisors, Generals etc, to give him the lay of the land.

Evan, I have family that fought in WWII, Korea and Vietnam and friends in the Gulf War and Lebanon. If I need a lesson, I could infringe upon them for it. However, my friend, to say you are non-partisan is clearly incorrect. The left of center folks are trying to keep their mouths shut and stand behind the president. Like some of the GOP politicos, you are using this opportunity to still find faults with Clinton.

david

1. How many times do I have to repeat myself? I DON'T CARE WHO WAS IN POWER THE FACT REMAINS THAT NO ONE WAS RAISING THE FLAG IN A GRAND SHOW OF PATRIOTISM IN 93 TO STOP THIS MADNESS BECAUSE THE LEADERSHIP LACKED COMMITTMENT!

It didn't matter that it was Clinton...OK??? DO you understand that? I don't care who was in power! This is a lesson about HISTORY and what we did wrong...realizing that, we shouldn't allow it to happen again.

2. You were not there in the Gulf, or in Somalia, or in the Balkans. I was. so stop talking as if you know what went on behind the scenes. Please, I'm asking you in the nicest way I know.

3. I'm NOT on a fault finding mission here...Prey was the original thread starter, I simply replied. You act like I started some campaign against a has been President when I haven't. this is about bad decision making on part of the DIFFERENT Commanders-In-Chief.

4. Yes, maybe you do need in a lesson in the military and it's structure. The President is the Commander -in- Chief. Sure, he listens to the miltary top brass but the CIVILIAN that he appointed (Cohen) to the top spot as the Sec. of Defense is the true leader of the military. All the different department heads...also civilian mind you, report to him. The Secretary of the Air Force is a civilian. They all are. They make the policy that we follow.

5.

Being the FORMER head of the CIA does not me he was in touch with present goings on.

Yeah...I know, I already said that...Bush Sr. thought because of his previous post that he had some knowledge over the good advice of the military top brass....he failed to listen to them. Thats why Saddam is still here. why do you want to argue that point?

6.

to say you are non-partisan is clearly incorrect. The left of center folks are trying to keep their mouths shut and stand behind the president. Like some of the GOP politicos, you are using this opportunity to still find faults with Clinton.

Implying that you are trying to keep your mouths shut only means that you must disagree with what actions we are taking. You are the one who still defends Clinton...why?

To wrap this up, all 2 of the President's before Bush have made grave foreign and military policy decisions.

I point them out to you all so that when you goto the voting booth...you can choose a leader who won't make these same mistakes.

David, I'm mystified as to why you feel this way.

All I have done is point out to you all that Bush and Clinton, two former Presidents, each made mistakes that are costing us now. Bush didn't go with us and decide to take out Saddam. Bad decision number one. Clinton didn't commit enough troops to do the job that he wanted in Somalia. Thats it! I don't know why you feel so victimized by my reporting? Oh, sorry, thats liberalism...somebody somewhere is always the victim!

P.S. BTW...I just want you to know that I love each and everyone of you and will defend this right of ours to debate freely...at home or abroad!

Your friend,
Evan

Originally posted by uod2001


yeah...1998...well I guess since you have branded me the far right with your leftist remarks I guess once again I will provide you with a far right answer...I mean really Downhill, what choice do you give me?

uod, dude, it was not my intention to brand you as anything. I get these same type of emails daily from freinds and such about recient events. All have the same underlying theme. It was the Clinton administrations fault. Added to the fact that I live in what I feel is the most conservative state in the union, public opinion runs the same since talk radio hammers that message home. It's a way to draw attention away from issues that suit the far right and big money in this country. Maybe it isn't right but it's effective. As to the leftist remark, maybe deserved, maybe not. I'm not a very good Dem. I would have voted for McCain in a heartbeat had the Reps been smart enough to nominate him. I defend what I see as truth, and even though Clinton is gone the bashing continues.....still read on......


Oh and actually I am listening to reason. I do read your posts fully. I feel that sometimes a different viewpoint than mine can shake loose a few cobwebs and cause me to think. Sometimes I'm quick to the point, sometimes I start researching to see if or as to why I might be mistaken in my own viewpoint.

Nor will I argue with you over the article of this thread. My post was only about bringing Clinton into this discussion. Now that I see your viewpoint as to why you did, no problem.




Still, I will appluad you for at least Bringing Bush into view in this discussion. I vowed when this all broke out, I would wave the flag first and not fire the first salvo here. So far, I think the discussion has been civil. There is still more to add but so far, I see no good of comming from it as I believe as Hell_Yes does. It only fans the flames of bi-partisanship. Something the country dosn't need now. Remember, I'm flying my flag first.

Ok enough rambling. I've now thread crapped twice.

Evan,

I wrote a several paragraph retort to your coments.

I decided not to post it for a simple reason. We are both Americans. We are all on the same side at this time of crisis. Moreover, that was my point. No name calling, not accusation, no bi-partisanship..... Unity.

your friend
david

Originally posted by Hell_Yes
Evan,

I wrote a several paragraph retort to your coments.

I decided not to post it for a simple reason. We are both Americans. We are all on the same side at this time of crisis. Moreover, that was my point. No name calling, not accusation, no bi-partisanship..... Unity.

your friend
david

David, I've been wrong MORE than I've been right! My Grandfather, who was a German translator for the American POW camps at Bayside, NJ, once told me some advice that I'll never forget...

He told me, "when it comes to people and your dealings with them, always remember this for an answer..."maybe you're right!".

and David, "maybe you're right!"

UNITY is what we need now and I may have failed to fully realize this. thanks for being patient with me!

Evan