My take on American Values

jayyy · Post by **jayyy** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:06 am

I'm trying to understand the thinking of the average american. Most people that fit this description would probably be republicans, but it would extend to a lot of non-political people too. This is not an attack. I just want to be sure I undertand the thinking before I run off theorizing about why they came to be, and what they mean-

"I have my family and friends. But I understand that out in the wider world, no-one gives a damn about me, and no-one owes me a damn thing.

Thats too bad, but thats the way life is. So I understand that I have to look out for myself and my family. I work hard to get what I have, and I do it without hand-outs from anyone. No-matter how pinched my family might get for money, I take pride in this fact.

I don't always want to help strangers or see my tax money going to supporting or helping them. You might see that as selfish, but I don't. I don't ask for any help from them, so why should they expect any help from me? I work hard to get what I have. If other people want to succeed, they should do the same.

And you can never call me a hypocrite. Since I do everything for myself, at the very least, I won't stand in the way of those that do the same. I'm not jealous of the rich. I respect them for their hard work and ingenuity, even admire some of them"

does that about sum it up?

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:21 am

I don't think anyone can ever come up with anything that says "average American".

America is waaaay too widespread in varied cultures and histories and geographical areas. You can travel to at least a half dozen major locations in the States and feel like each one is a different country.

You could get as many different answers as there are as people who attempt to seriously answer your question.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:25 am

average american? easy.

fat ass getting their political information from fox and the rest of their news from mtv or vh1. with some oprah and jerry in the middle.

kill average americans!

and jayyy sounds pretty right to me for the republican view, but i'm sure republicans will debate you! lol

jayyy · Post by **jayyy** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:26 am

Originally posted by YeOldeStonecat
I don't think anyone can ever come up with anything that says "average American".

America is waaaay too widespread in varied cultures and histories and geographical areas. You can travel to at least a half dozen major locations in the States and feel like each one is a different country.

You could get as many different answers as there are as people who attempt to seriously answer your question.

I agree. Its an extremely varied country. But would you say enough people hold those basic principles to really affect who gets elected, or public policy generally?

Would you say the majority of Bush voters, for example, would hold values such as those?

SICMF · Post by **SICMF** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:40 am

I don't see how that refects on American Values. That is the way we all should be. It's the logical right way. It is a shame that very few practice that way of life. I think most cultures are the same except for the little differences that don't mean anything.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:05 am

Originally posted by PãradØxDêit¥™
I don't see how that refects on American Values. That is the way we all should be. It's the logical right way. It is a shame that very few practice that way of life. I think most cultures are the same except for the little differences that don't mean anything.

so are u a republican?

SICMF · Post by **SICMF** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:13 am

Originally posted by YARDofSTUF
so are u a republican?

No political affiliation at all. Nothing but labels that don't mean anything If you would like to label then i would say Non-Conformist. I have my views, what i agree with and what i don't. That is all that matters. If i agree with what some black people say doesn't mean i'm black. No political party can offer all of the same views as anyone.

SGTMAJRET · Post by **SGTMAJRET** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:24 am

Originally posted by YARDofSTUF
so are u a republican?

So, does this mean you're Democrat?

SGTMAJRET · Post by **SGTMAJRET** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:41 am

I say, are there any Tories or Whigs out there. We sure are quick to label people by a political party. Average goes across "party" lines.

As far as the action we took, I believe the war against terrorism needs to be fought on their turf not ours.

Blisster · Post by **Blisster** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:07 pm

SeedOfChaos · Post by **SeedOfChaos** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:11 pm

I would go as far as to say that the majority of US Americans that I had the pleasure of meeting more or less had this point of view.

ParadoxDeity, to me something else is much more logical, but that's not the point of this thread. There IS more than one set of logics, you know, and people tend to weigh things differently within the same set of logic. I find it rather arrogant to say that a certain opinion is the only logical one without backing the statement up in any way, assuming that everyone else is wrong by default. That's faulty logic to me.

Oh, and European culture is significantly different.

Cheers,
Ronald

SICMF · Post by **SICMF** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:19 pm

Originally posted by SeedOfChaos
I would go as far as to say that the majority of US Americans that I had the pleasure of meeting more or less had this point of view.

ParadoxDeity, to me something else is much more logical, but that's not the point of this thread. There IS more than one set of logics, you know, and people tend to weigh things differently within the same set of logic. I find it rather arrogant to say that a certain opinion is the only logical one without backing the statement up in any way, assuming that everyone else is wrong by default. That's faulty logic to me.

Cheers,
Ronald

Not what i was saying at all. I was just pointing out that everything Jayyy was saying is common sense. Be kind, understanding, and take care of what is important to you. Seems logical doesn't it? I realize that we all have different views and logic, and no one can say what logic is right. Different views, logic, opinions, and mentality is what make the world. I don't believe it to be arrogant to express those. Someday someone might say yeah that does make sense. Never once did i say that anybody elses opinion doesn't matter.

torsten · Post by **torsten** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:04 pm

Originally posted by jayyy
"I have my friends and family. But I understand that out in the wider world, no-one gives a damn about me, and no-one owes me a damn thing.

Thats too bad, but thats the way life is. So I understand that I have to look out for myself and my family. I work hard to get what I have, and I do it without hand-outs from anyone. No-matter how pinched my family might get for money, I take pride in this fact.

I don't always want to help strangers or see my tax money going to supporting or helping them. You might see that as selfish, but I don't. I don't ask for any help from them, so why should they expect any help from me? I work hard to get what I have. If other people want to succeed, they should do the same.

And you can never call me a hypocrite. Since I do everything for myself, at the very least, I won't stand in the way of those that do the same. I'm not jealous of the rich. I respect them for their hard work and ingenuity, even admire some of them"

does that about sum it up?

That quote is an example of one muddled ideology that competes with others. But unfortunately that line of darwinist excuse making is very pervasive in the US. &nbsp Americans vary wildly in the degree they accept it. Only a hardcore group understand it fully and defend its core (and they would never say, "that's too bad..."). For most, who understand it only in a surface sense, the appeal of it is like a psychological crutch and self-esteem booster. It's used very often as a tool to put others down and wage political warfare against those who'd like to see more equity, opportunity, and fairness (e.g. compensation by merit) in the economy. The subconscious thinking goes, "At least I'm better than those people." And the more of those people you can look down on, the better you feel about yourself. &nbsp IMO, most people, even those who parrot a lot of that language, realize there are flaws underneath the arguments. Most don't examine their own philosophies with any thoroughness. It stays on the mind's periphery and is therefore subject to shaping given the moment or circumstance. After all, this is a nation that elected and re-elected both Reagan and Clinton.

And to be honest, there's a lot of truth in the argument for self-reliance, just as there's a lot of truth in the argument that many need help from their neighbors. There's value in highly compensating the people who achieve the most, just as there's value in making sure a society doesn't have too great a gap between rich and poor. People do sense both sides of all this, but too often are pushed into one camp or the other. Hence, red and blue America and the resentments they hold against each other.

EvilAngel · Post by **EvilAngel** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:19 pm

So basically your saying most Americans are lazy, self centered people looking for a handout?

Prey521 · Post by **Prey521** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:22 pm

Originally posted by JBiggs
So basically your saying most Americans are lazy, self centered people looking for a handout?

I thought that was only Californians?

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:23 pm

That does not represent most Americans or republicans for that matter.

EvilAngel · Post by **EvilAngel** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:24 pm

Originally posted by Prey521
I thought that was only Californians?

Why you SOB!.....lol

your probably right though

torsten · Post by **torsten** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:29 pm

Originally posted by JBiggs
So basically your saying most Americans are lazy, self centered people looking for a handout?

Who are you directing that to? It followed my post, but I certainly didn't say that. The self-centered ones are usually the people who opportunistically (and often falsely) accuse others of looking for a handout.

cyberskye · Post by **cyberskye** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:35 pm

Careful pigeon-holing people. You almost always come away with a false impression. Ignorance is all of our enemy.

The US is the only existant, true meritocracy that I am aware of. What you quote in the original post is part of that.

I live in San Francisco now (just moved here from Washington, DC - talk about a difference!), and there is a reason they call this the left coast. Nothing is universal.

Look at the european union. Fewer countries than we have states and they can't agree on anything either

My father worked for the State Department, so I have seen quite a bit of the 'outside world'. No opportunities that we take for granted. Pretty hopeless for many.

Red vs Blue is kinda silly anyway. The Republicans complain that democrats just want to tax and spend on social programs. This type of republican administration (neo-cons, FAR right) are cutting taxes and spending even more. Largest deficit in history. This makes most republicans I know VERY nervous.
The cold war was (argueably) won by out-spending the USSR. Who are we trying to outspend now?

I'm socially liberal but econmically conservative. Does that make me purple?

In any case, self-reliance is respected here - sharp contrast to France and other quasi-socialist societies throughout the world. **No, I am not France-bashing here** We're a nation born from revolution, so that is definitely a part of our culture; a common bond amongst nearly all americans.

Sorry for the long-winded response

EvilAngel · Post by **EvilAngel** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:38 pm

Originally posted by torsten
Who are you directing that to? It followed my post, but I certainly didn't say that. The self-centered ones are usually the people who opportunistically (and often falsely) accuse others of looking for a handout.

I was directing my question at jayyys original post. I should have quoted.

I ussually agree with everything you say, or at least, see your point.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:40 pm

Not true we are only spending more on National Security which is what it should be. I dont mind my taxes going to the U.S. Military. Without a strong military, our country will be no more so who cares at that point about social programs

How about we cut social programs to improve the deficit?

I dont see any democrats asking for that.

torsten · Post by **torsten** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:50 pm

Originally posted by Ghosthunter
Not true we are only spending more on National Security which is what it should be.

Not true. Read this take on it from a Republican.

I think we've discussed this before. IMO the Republicans are deliberately running up debt so that funding for certain programs like health care will be impossible. But that's another thread.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:56 pm

Originally posted by torsten
Not true. Read this take on it from a Republican.

I think we've discussed this before. IMO the Republicans are deliberately running up debt so that funding for certain programs like health care will be impossible. But that's another thread.

lol yeah republicans hate healthcare so much they will run the debt on purpose

cyberskye · Post by **cyberskye** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:45 pm

I think that the deficit has a lot of republicans - fiscally responsible people - scared. Taxes will eventually have to go back up to pay for this.

I don't mind military spending. I don't know about all the bribes that we are paying countries in the 'war on terror' - why are we spending 8.5b on turkey and 87b on our troops? THat's 10% and what does it get us?

The_Lurker · Post by **The_Lurker** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:23 pm

I am self reliant and tend to be fiscally conservative and socialy moderate. I like to make sure that I can take care of me and mine during good times and bad times. I keep a savings so if times are bad I do not have to rely on social services or others hand outs.
I harken for a simpler time, say "little house on the prarie" days. it would be a dream to me to live like that, with modern creature comforts, sattelite tv and computers of course!

I am a Libertarian.
I do not like goverment intruding into my business.

I am compationate as well, and give to charities as I see fit, and of my own chosing as to reflect what values I hold dear. I help others when they need help. all this I do as long as my own family is not suffering because of it.

so am I your typycal American javvy? is this what your talking about?

Roody · Post by **Roody** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:24 pm

Originally posted by jayyy

does that about sum it up?

No, but the greatest country in the world does.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:32 pm

Originally posted by Roody
No, but the greatest country in the world does.

Amen

SavageHrt · Post by **SavageHrt** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:40 pm

Originally posted by Roody
No, but the greatest country in the world does.

And what makes the U.S. the greatest country in the world? We are no better than anybody else. It's just those type of comments and attitudes like that p!ss people off in other countries.

My 2 Cents:

Sav

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:43 pm

Originally posted by SavageHrt
And what makes the U.S. the greatest country in the world? We are no better than anybody else. It's just those type of comments and attitudes like that p!ss people off in other countries.

My 2 Cents:

Sav

I think more people laugh than get pissed off at that type of comment. I know I do.

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:45 pm

Originally posted by Norm
I think more people laugh than get pissed off at that type of comment. I know I do.

And we laugh at....I mean....with you...

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:46 pm

Originally posted by SavageHrt
And what makes the U.S. the greatest country in the world? We are no better than anybody else. It's just those type of comments and attitudes like that p!ss people off in other countries.

My 2 Cents:

Sav

ask all the millions of immigrants that try to get into this country illegally every year.

I dont see that happenining in many other countries

only time people try to get out of the US is when they just robbed a bank or did some highly illegal crime that will land them in jail for 20 years +

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:47 pm

Originally posted by Ghosthunter
ask all the millions of immigrants that try to get into this country illegally every year.

I dont see that happenining in many other countries

Your not aware that there is an influx of immigrants to Canada?

SavageHrt · Post by **SavageHrt** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:47 pm

Originally posted by Norm
I think more people laugh than get pissed off at that type of comment. I know I do.

That's quite possible, Norm and I commend you for that. However, those type of comments in my opinion, just make the U.S. look foolish.

Sav

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:49 pm

Originally posted by downhill
Your not aware that there is an influx of immigrants to Canada?

must be going for the free health care =)

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:51 pm

Originally posted by SavageHrt
That's quite possible, Norm and I commend you for that. However, those type of comments in my opinion, just make the U.S. look foolish.

Sav

Maybe so in some eyes, but when you give it some thought..... most people will say their country is the best.

Nothing to get pissed about, and nothing to feel ashamed of.

nepenthe · Post by **nepenthe** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:52 pm

Originally posted by YeOldeStonecat
I don't think anyone can ever come up with anything that says "average American".

America is waaaay too widespread in varied cultures and histories and geographical areas. You can travel to at least a half dozen major locations in the States and feel like each one is a different country.

You could get as many different answers as there are as people who attempt to seriously answer your question.

A fine post.

I would like to add two points.

America has been saddled with a two party system for many decades. For this reason, we seem as though our concerns are monochromatic. Not every soul is so simple.
I have also seen generalizations regarding Americans based our entertainment/news media. Part of the resent I share with YOSC is the vapid uniformity that chains and conglomerate broadcasts. It should be apparent, at least from this site that we do not all think the same.

shant,
david

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:53 pm

Originally posted by Ghosthunter
must be going for the free health care =)

I read a lot of your threads and have come to the conclusion you really don't know much about what you post about.

Health care in Canada has NEVER been free.

The_Lurker · Post by **The_Lurker** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:54 pm

Originally posted by Norm
I think more people laugh than get pissed off at that type of comment. I know I do.

yes, yes they do.....

oh well

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:55 pm

Originally posted by Norm
I read a lot of your threads and have come to the conclusion you really don't know much about what you post about.

Health care in Canada has NEVER been free.

I never said that it was a joke some guy from canada said that in another thread how canada health system is superb comapred to US

that is why i put the =) to refer as a joke lol

Blisster · Post by **Blisster** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:55 pm

Originally posted by Norm
I read a lot of your threads and have come to the conclusion you really don't know much about what you post about.

Health care in Canada has NEVER been free.

AMEN!

SG Broadband Community

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