SG Broadband Community

Roody, I agree that training is a vital component to gun ownership. But how do you ensure it? It just seems that the gun lobby is so powerful that it is almost impossible to implement anything. I know some people feel more safe with a gun, but I must say that I feel a bit relieved in knowing that my neighbour can't blow my brains out if he gets mad at me for asking him to turn down the music.
Again, I just don't think that knowing that a weapon is dangerous and knowing how to properly store, load and fire it will help in an unpredictable domestic dispute. Although, I really hope it would.
I did find it amusing that vermont tried to pass a law making it illegal Not to own a gun, I don't think it passed.

Originally posted by dreww71:
Roody, I agree that training is a vital component to gun ownership. But how do you ensure it? It just seems that the gun lobby is so powerful that it is almost impossible to implement anything. I know some people feel more safe with a gun, but I must say that I feel a bit relieved in knowing that my neighbour can't blow my brains out if he gets mad at me for asking him to turn down the music.
Again, I just don't think that knowing that a weapon is dangerous and knowing how to properly store, load and fire it will help in an unpredictable domestic dispute. Although, I really hope it would.
I did find it amusing that vermont tried to pass a law making it illegal Not to own a gun, I don't think it passed.

actually my intentions in my post had more to do with how parents raised there kids etc... if kids are raised to learn the benefits/dangers of anything guns included they can get a better grapse on things and understand the effects of such a thing. Minir made a post in regards to my "Whats your Opinion on this" post saying that alot of times issues can be avoided just by families spending time together and getting to see what your children etc are involved in.

by doing this I believe kids can become more aware of things and parents can also and this certainly has an effect on this issue in my opinion. thanks for the words Dreww

Originally posted by dreww71:
I thought the 2nd ammendment was written that way so cowboys could shoot people who were stealing their horses. You guys got to update that law.

Bingo.

Originally posted by gmcd33:
The second amendment is there for a reason. ..... The first 10 amendments are there to protect US from the Government.

and

We live in a day and age where schools wont fail students for fear that their feelings may be hurt and that would cause low self esteem. What do you expect. Kids can do anything they want these days because psychologits tell us that ANY behavior is normal.

Enough with this BS. If kids respected eachother, the most of all themselves these things wouldnt happen. How can a kid have self respect when there is no dicipline? Kids need rules and punishments. We are too buys worying about how the punishment may make him/her feel than actually caring enough about our kids to punish them.

Guns were around in the 50's and there were no school shootings. Know why? There was respect then. Kids respected themselves, and FEARED their parents. Now kids sue there parents and are comforted by sissy councelers in schools who go after parents who actually dicipline their kids.

The whole school system and society is ass backwords. Cut the BS compassion and replace it with rules, penaltys, and respect and this crap will stop.

Taking guns away is NOT the answer. What about bombs? Just recently kids tryed to blow up the school with a bomb. Knives, hell we all have them in out kitchen. If you want to kill someone, you will. Gun or no gun. Guns get labeled bad by people who dont understand them.


And in closing, if you dont think what happened in Nazi Germany couldnt happen in the US than your crazy.

Perfectly said- I couldn't agree more. I am so sick and tired of hearing this same old BS- why is NOONE accountable for their own actions anymore? Where are the freaking parents? " No.. we never knew little Johnny had some issues. we had no idea he had his own white supremist web site, and was building propane bombs in his room..." Give me a break!

Wake up- it's not guns... it's parents, or the lack of them. Christ, I was brought up in a veritable arsenal... my family hunted and there were always guns in the house when I was a kid. But I had some respect (aka: fear). My father would have beat my ass raw I ever even thought of touching them And gee, I wonder why I never thought to bring one to school and blow somebody's head off 'cause I didn't "feel good about myself".

It's a crosk people... wake up... be accountable... pay attention to your kids... Take the guns away; take the knives away; what next? They could bash each others skulls in with baseball bats too- guess we better outlaw them!

I have a house full today, and the only way I'll give 'em up is when I'm fertilizer.

Canadian friends and neighbors- if YOU don't want guns- that's your right. Don't comment on ours.

Walther PP; 32 acp
S&W 38 Special
Ruger Super Single
HiStandard Auto
Winchester 70; .257 Roberts
Winchester 94; 30-30
Beretta O/U 20ga
Savage S/S dbl 20 ga.
Ithaca 37 12 ga
Ithaca Deerslayer 12 ga.

etc., etc., etc.

Love 'em all!

Originally posted by twwabw:
Perfectly said- I couldn't agree more. I am so sick and tired of hearing this same old BS- why is NOONE accountable for their own actions anymore? Where are the freaking parents? " No.. we never knew little Johnny had some issues. we had no idea he had his own white supremist web site, and was building propane bombs in his room..." Give me a break!

Wake up- it's not guns... it's parents, or the lack of them. Christ, I was brought up in a veritable arsenal... my family hunted and there were always guns in the house when I was a kid. But I had some respect (aka: fear). My father would have beat my ass raw I ever even thought of touching them And gee, I wonder why I never thought to bring one to school and blow somebody's head off 'cause I didn't "feel good about myself".

It's a crosk people... wake up... be accountable... pay attention to your kids... Take the guns away; take the knives away; what next? They could bash each others skulls in with baseball bats too- guess we better outlaw them!

I have a house full today, and the only way I'll give 'em up is when I'm fertilizer.

Canadian friends and neighbors- if YOU don't want guns- that's your right. Don't comment on ours.

Walther PP; 32 acp
S&W 38 Special
Ruger Super Single
HiStandard Auto
Winchester 70; .257 Roberts
Winchester 94; 30-30
Beretta O/U 20ga
Savage S/S dbl 20 ga.
Ithaca 37 12 ga
Ithaca Deerslayer 12 ga.

etc., etc., etc.

Love 'em all!

Hey man, u are right. It is parents. But the reality is, not all parents are gonna be responsible and be good role models for their children, therefore, the children who do not have good parents will do things such as commit crimes like school shootings.

Thats why guns should not be allowed. I'm not against ppl who have guns, I don't care, its your choice. And I'm happy to see that u (twwabw) had good parenting. Unfortunately though, its not like that in all households (u probably know this).
So the only way to help decrease crime is to remove the easy availabitly of weapons to the public.

So yes, gmcd33 is correct, and I totally agree with him when he says that kids have no respect for parents, and that our society is screwed up big time. But if parents are unwilling to take proper care/responsibility of their children, then what will it take to rectify the situation. IMO, removing guns/2nd Ammendment. But thats just My opinion...so don't be offended or anything...

and yes, things like baseball bats can be considered weapons, but its a lot easier to run away from a person who has a baseball bat than it is from a person who has a handgun.


I'm not trying to correct the U.S, I'm just suggesting how u guys can help prevent these school shootings/other crimes.....how many more school shootings will it take to realize that Americans live in a dangerous society?

[ 03-23-2001: Message edited by: Blitz ]

gmcd33, Hitler and also the rest of the developed world don't allow everyone the right to own hand guns, automatic weapons,etc... yet the last time I looked they all had stable democratic governments. Most of the deaths due to guns are not the result of teens shooting up schools but domestic disputes.

well to throw my own 2 cents into the mix, i believe removing guns from civilians is a reactive and not a proactive move. Guns arent the problem. Its the people using them that are the issue. If people are taught common sense and learn proper ways to handle themselves with guns then issues become rare.

Unfortunately, alot of issues occur because steps arent taken to properly teach people before they get all screwed up. Prime example is the issue with Columbine. Here the kids who were found guilty had had all kids of things lying around that made it obvious they were up to no good and yet parents never questioned it.

I agree guns can cause harm, but its who's using them that are the problem.

Originally posted by SeedOfChaos:
Thanks for pointing this out dreww, I felt a VERY strong urge to flame gmcd33 for that remark, it displays utter ignorance for the rest of the world. However, I will refrain from that... there's nothing to be gained.

To quote George Carlin... "symbols to the symbol-minded....."

Well, I agree with you on one thing. There is nothing to be gained by flamming. What ever I may post here on speedguide is not intended to step on anyone's personal feelings or to intentionally offend anyone. I am very passionate about my positions on certain issues and aspouse them accordingly.

While I may disagree with you, I will not call you ignorant for what you believe and I would appreciate the same in return.

I believe these issues can be debated fiercly without getting personal. If you disaree with me, challenge the things I am saying. Maybe throw in facts or statistics. But lets stay on topic and not get personal.

I do not believe I am ignorant, nor that I portray ignorance. Furthermore, I dont believe you are ignorant; we just have different opinions.

With that said, I am going to bed; I am tired.

Originally posted by gmcd33:
Well, I agree with you on one thing. There is nothing to be gained by flamming. What ever I may post here on speedguide is not intended to step on anyone's personal feelings or to intentionally offend anyone. I am very passionate about my positions on certain issues and aspouse them accordingly.

While I may disagree with you, I will not call you ignorant for what you believe and I would appreciate the same in return.

I believe these issues can be debated fiercly without getting personal. If you disaree with me, challenge the things I am saying. Maybe throw in facts or statistics. But lets stay on topic and not get personal.

I do not believe I am ignorant, nor that I portray ignorance. Furthermore, I dont believe you are ignorant; we just have different opinions.

With that said, I am going to bed; I am tired.

gmcd33, it is fine to have a passionate point of view, but I think in this case your ignorance is in referring to Hitler to make a point. It simply isn't true that Hitler was the last person to restrict gun usage. But besides that the topic of Hitler is a very sensitive issue in European countries that were and were not occupied and is not something you should use indiscrimantly to make a point. Hitler may be a comical subject in the US but he certainly isn't in Europe.
I think everybody knows most gun owners are responsible gun owners, the problem is with the people who aren't. What do you do about them?

Gmcd, sorry for calling you ignorant, but it just appeared as such to me. As dreww pointed out, Hitler is not something you use to make a point over here in Europe, especially not in Germany (where I'm from). Besides, that "point" has been thoroughly discussed in the previous Gun Control thread, and this reasoning does piss me off to a great extend. Hitler is certainly not a comical figure, but rather a horror from the past that still haunts Europe in some respect until this day. We can still see the results. Everyday. Watch "Schindler's List" again, and then think about how appropriate it is to use Hitler as a comical figure (I'm not saying you are, just trying to point out the difference in thinking). We see stuff like that on TV almost every other day, to remind us what intolerance can lead to.

Furthermore, current-day Germany, as most (if not all) European countries, has very strict gun control. You CAN get a gun for hunting or to protect yourself, but guns are all registered, and you need to have a license. Much like a driver's license. Well, like a EU driver's license, I suppose, as you need to have considerable training to obtain it, and the training is provided by driving instructors, who do nothing else but teach people how to driver properly. To be a hunter, you also need to know how to hunt, and how to safely handle your firearms. That's a necessity to own firearms in Germany. I believe we have about 1/6 of your gun-related deaths, speaking in per-capita terms, with overall violence also being considerably lower than yours. I think jayyy has the exact figures on this. Also, our democracy is very stable since it was properly established (thanks to the US and other nations). Voter turnout (? not sure if this is correct term, I mean the percentage of eligable voters actually voting) is consistently higher in Germany than in the US. Even for local elections we usually get between 60-75%. Germans LOVE democracy nowadays.

However, simply changing the rules in the US (taking the right to bear arms away) will not be a satisfactory solution to the problem the US is having. It is simply not possible to take away ALL legal/illegal firearm from so many people in such a gigantic country once guns are so wide-spread.

Peace,
Ronald

[ 03-24-2001: Message edited by: SeedOfChaos ]

ok I use the old one,it's not guns that kill,if guns did not exist,it would be something else.

Just a comment or two.

There were no cowboys pre-1800.

Hitler is viewed as a great evil in the US. Actual as the paradigm of ultimate evil. I think it is understandable to view any actions he took as methods to drive the US down his wretched path.... I don't agree for one minute that is the case, though. In fact, allowing unlimited guns has permitted totalitarian micro-nation/city-states to occur within our borders. Said "compounds" typically are despotisms, well armed despotisms that defy US gov't laws (Paying tax, children's welfare, etc...).
The thought the gun elimination is reactive vs proactive is almost right. If the US citizenry were on one big tranquilizer that cured our adrenaline addiction. Most folks on this site feel that the "Matrix" was one of the coolest movies. The scene that clenches it is one of America's sexiest actors, head to toe in black, mirrored glasses, blasting away meanies with an endless supply of guns.
There is a ruse that our violent insticts are natural hence somewhat forgivible. If the US entertainment can pander to our dark sides, why is anyone surprised that our dark sides have surfaced. All despots recognize the power of the media to sway the minds of their populace. To quell rebellious notions, outside views are typically staunched.
In the US, we finally took aim at big tobacco. In order to squelch its usage, we first went after advertisements.... Even the subliminal ones. Removing smoking from our entertainment boxes.... reducing smoking....
Well it seems a good idea. Still, we face the teen peer group. Maleable, yes, but tough to guide. I stated in a previous thread a few times the rebellion is typical for all adolescents. What is "permitted" has denigrated with each passing decade (We like decades). If both parents have to work to maintain a household, who can control the teens? Parents face their own peer group in other parents who allow their tykes near unlimited freedom. Do I allow my child to face ridicule for his peers? That is why suburbanites are buying their kids fashion.....

Whoah... I am going on a rant.....
I'll shut up now

One more thought....

The "Founding Fathers" of the US were not bless with deific omniscience. They were neither apostles nor angels. They were men, men with agendas. Why do way view these gov't leaders having OUR best interests in mind?

Canadian friends and neighbors- if YOU don't want guns- that's your right. Don't comment on ours

that's how most of the handguns are getting up here--across the border

Gun Control gave us the Black Market for guns. Now anyone can get a gun.

We "over-regulated" guns and 'Shot Ourselves in the Foot'.

I let my Federal Firearms License expire because the market for 'legal' guns got too small.

That was in the 80s. Everyone was worried about a BIG confiscation and wanted a 'black-market' gun. They were CPAs, lawyers, etc.

California has the strictest gun control of any state....Yea, that worked.

Originally posted by keeper:
California has the strictest gun control of any state....Yea, that worked.

Hmmmm.

I do believe NJ is stricter....

Vermont has the loosest gun control law in the US.ANY US citizen can carry a weapon there.
Amazingly,Vermont also has one of the lowest rates of crimes comitted with a gun,per capita,in the US,even though they border NY.Go figure.
It's interesting to note that Australia,which banned ownership of guns several years ago,has had it's rate of crimes comitted with a gun increase by 44%.

Originally posted by Sox:
Vermont has the loosest gun control law in the US.ANY US citizen can carry a weapon there.
Amazingly,Vermont also has one of the lowest rates of crimes comitted with a gun,per capita,in the US,even though they border NY.Go figure.
It's interesting to note that Australia,which banned ownership of guns several years ago,has had it's rate of crimes comitted with a gun increase by 44%.

Sox,

First off... Hello!

The Aussie stats came up in a previous anti- pro-gun discussion. Vermont also has a very low population density with no large cities. Crime has always been low in your fine state. THe gun argument is a tough one with convincing stats offered from both sides. The US being made of states is sort of fitting in the variety of culture with our own boundries. For a Texan or a Louisiana native, a gun is second nature. In NJ, it draws some suspicion... (By non-gunowners)...

Go figure...

Still, Columbine didn't happen with knives or baseball bats.