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Once again.....please........


Stay on topic......others beliefs are theirs. And your welcome to voice your own as to beliefs...

Civil in this discussion is not to question others.....This was ask in a civil tone.

Originally posted by Paft


Sorry, I had to jump on this.

If "God" is so merciful (as you say), then why doesn't he just utter a word.. say, "home", and then the person he's calling goes *poof* on the streets. No pain, no suffering..

I cannot totally answer that, but from my beliefs there are many reasons, and God really is the only who knows the answer.

Lets take a few different examples.

1) Someone who has been diagnosed with a fatal disease, and has 1 year left to live. One reason maybe God did this, is because that person needs to learn something, or maybe needs to finish things here. That person is actually given a second chance to do whatever it is he/she must do, or maybe to fix problems with family, and get a chance to say their final goodbye.

2) Someone who dies very fast, almost instantly like a car accident. It was just that person time to go, maybe God did not want that person to suffer.


What I believe though is we have no control, if it is our time to go it is our time to go.

For all the stories you hear of people who were suppoe to be on the plane on 9-11, who were not, and lived, or all the people who called in sick who worked in the wtc, and survived, and they will say thank god, I called in sick. It just was not their time to die and go home. God makes sure that person was not there, because it was not their time.

"WHY" is the word that drives people crazy. Apparently it's now a word that can't be used.

Originally posted by click_here

I think putting a "label" on humans is not a good thing.

What?!?! I have a "damaged goods" label on my forehead. Dang it, won't come off. I feel like an open box buy at Circuit City.

I wouldn't ask this if this thread hadn't already gone to hell (which was obviously going to happen anyhow)

How do your live your life thinking that everything is predetermined? That seems like the most boring thing I have ever heard.

For all the stories you hear of people who were suppoe to be on the plane on 9-11, who were not, and lived, or all the people who called in sick who worked in the wtc, and survived, and they will say thank god, I called in sick

Actually they will say thank god because it is common language not because they believe in a god (christian domination being forced for 100s of years bla bla bla). And your story is thin because you seem to be expecting everyone who did go on the flights to accept that YOUR god said it was their time.

Well, i didn't answer it because there's more to "God" then just believing. I for one believe in a Higher Power. it's not being religious or quote something from the bible. I've never seen God to actually "believe" in him, but i do believe there is a force greater than myself that makes all things possible.

As i was growing up in the Bronx and goin to church evry sunday , one day i sat with the priest and asked him about God and what's my connection with him. He said this:

We are human by the body but the spirit is a liitle ball of light. It's more like a marble of energy that makes the body run like some sort of power cell. once the body has broken down with age, illnesses , the enrgy marble has nothing else to run on, hence death, but the little energy marble goes back to where it originaly came from. God is the main energy marble and our spirit being part of that, has to go back to him. That's why it's called everlasting life, not death. The body has it's time limit, the spirit has none.

Kinda made me think about that. Like i said, it's hard to believe in something you don't see, but do you really have to see it to believe?

Originally posted by Arson_ist
I wouldn't ask this if this thread hadn't already gone to hell (which was obviously going to happen anyhow)

How do your live your life thinking that everything is predetermined? That seems like the most boring thing I have ever heard.



Actually they will say thank god because it is common language not because they believe in a god (christian domination being forced for 100s of years bla bla bla). And your story is thin because you seem to be expecting everyone who did go on the flights to accept that YOUR god said it was their time.

I never said our life is predertimined. We have total free will, otherwise you are right, life would be boring.

I just believe God is the only one who knows that day when you are going home, and nothing can be changed about that, unless god wants it.

I am also not expecting anyone to believe anything. I am saying what I believe, but not neccesarily makes me 100% correct. Truthfully no one knows anything is 100%, but without beliefs, what do you have?

Originally posted by LT-73


We are human by the body but the spirit is a liitle ball of light. It's more like a marble of energy that makes the body run like some sort of power cell. once the body has broken down with age, illnesses , the enrgy marble has nothing else to run on, hence death, but the little energy marble goes back to where it originaly came from. God is the main energy marble and our spirit being part of that, has to go back to him. That's why it's called everlasting life, not death. The body has it's time limit, the spirit has none.

That is real good, because I have seen the balls of light. They are what we paranormal researchers called "ORBS" If you get a night vision scope, or a sony camcorder with night vision, and go to a place that is haunted or a cemterey at night, you will see them too.

There is a whole big debate about orbs among paranormal researchers, because many times in photos there can be natural explanations like dust, but other times there can be none, and no one really knows what the orbs are for sure.

Originally posted by davy19




That is real good, because I have seen the balls of light. They are what we paranormal researchers called "ORBS" If you get a night vision scope, or a sony camcorder with night vision, and go to a place that is haunted or a cemterey at night, you will see them too.

There is a whole big debate about orbs among paranormal researchers, because many times in photos there can be natural explanations like dust, but other times there can be none, and no one really knows what the orbs are for sure.

Alot more "orb" images can be seen here however I believe it is only out of focus dust.

God, Allah, Yahweh

these three are one in the same.

Originally posted by Amro
God, Allah, Yahweh

these three are one in the same.

Amro, good observation.

ALL the names listed in my original post are the names of the Divine Supreme Being as used by various systems of belief. It was my humble attempt to be as all-inclusive as possible. Naturally I couldn't mention all the names that a Divine Supreme Being is called by. I just mentioned the names that immediately came to mind.

To reiterate, all the names listed are one in the same.

Not all orbs are dust. I also do not trust half the pictures Art Bell puts up.


I do agree whenever you see a photo where there are hundreds of orbs, that is more then likely dust.


But, I have witnessed with my night scope using infared, see orbs actually go through a tombstone.

I have never seen any dust go through a physical object before.


When we take photos and do get orbs, we try to validate not by just the photo but with other physical evidence, like EMF readings, temperature readings,

Originally posted by click_here
I voted no,but I think everyone is good if they are good with themselves and what they believe in,whatever it may be.

I don't force my way of life on others and I expect the same in return.

what makes an individual happy and a person who tries to do the right thing,and lets others live as they choose without hurting other people,makes a good person,and is'nt that what it's about?

I think putting a "label" on humans is not a good thing.

Yes... that is what it's all about.

*adds click_here to "buddy" list*

i believ in my god, but no one elses god, no religion but my own. No organized religions donations or molestations here

I voted "Yes"

I have a question about "god"

1. How could any "god" let people like Hitler, Stalin and the likes be born..
2. How could "god" let world war 1, 2, vietnam, Korea, wars happen??
3. How could any god let September 11 happen?

All these innocent people that die, why does "god" choose for a three month old baby to die, how is it the babies time to go??

This isn't meant to be insulting anyone or anything.. I'd just like to see their views on "god"

And hearing about these miracles where people get in a car jam on sept 11, and they would have been working.. That's small comport to the 4500 people who died.

Originally posted by downhill

Nothing just happens.....That is my belief..

Excellent! Evolution states that ... erm lol il wait... heh.

Not to sure right now ... i dont know if i should say this ... but i think that maby the reason that people do not want to face a religion, or God for that matter is that they dont want anything higher than them, they want to be in control of their life ? Just a theory.

But, the way i see it is that i do not believe in "chance" .

Originally posted by Mutch
I have a question about "god"

1. How could any "god" let people like Hitler, Stalin and the likes be born..
2. How could "god" let world war 1, 2, vietnam, Korea, wars happen??
3. How could any god let September 11 happen?

Well, then you would have to say, if he did stop all those horrible things from happeneing, what would you have ? ... the perfect world. As iv heard it ... not sure if its true, God put us here mainly because he was loneley, and second for your choice to believe in him. Belive = eternal life, Nobelive = hell.

Originally posted by Mutch
I have a question about "god"

1. How could any "god" let people like Hitler, Stalin and the likes be born..
2. How could "god" let world war 1, 2, vietnam, Korea, wars happen??
3. How could any god let September 11 happen?

All these innocent people that die, why does "god" choose for a three month old baby to die, how is it the babies time to go??

This isn't meant to be insulting anyone or anything.. I'd just like to see their views on "god"

And hearing about these miracles where people get in a car jam on sept 11, and they would have been working.. That's small comport to the 4500 people who died.

I use to think and feel the exact same way.

God does not let it happen, it happens because of human's own free will.

When you realize death is not the end, then it is easier to understand.

I also feel that God does not send anyone to Hell (because there is no Hell, except your own personal Hell here on earth), or hate anyone, even people like Hitler, Stalin, Bin laden and the terrorists on those planes on 9-11

Originally posted by ColdFusion


Well, then you would have to say, if he did stop all those horrible things from happeneing, what would you have ? ... the perfect world. As iv heard it ... not sure if its true, God put us here mainly because he was loneley, and second for your choice to believe in him. Belive = eternal life, Nobelive = hell.

No you wouldn't have the perfect world. The perfect world would be star trek, no hunger, no disease, no wars. Everyone lives forever..

Someone pointed out that "god" protects people.. How is letting Hitler come to power and kill 7 MILLION jews protecting people?
So If I don't beleive in "god" I'm going to hell? What kind of "god" is that?

One other religion question.. I know nothing about the bible.

Ok so there is Adam and eve.. Two people that start humanity.. Hmm so we have two people.. IMBREEDING would be a problem.. SO we would not be in god's image??

Hey one more quick one.

Ok, jesus was "gods" son.. And he let the people torture, and kill him.. Some "god"

Originally posted by Mutch
I have a question about "god"

1. How could any "god" let people like Hitler, Stalin and the likes be born..
2. How could "god" let world war 1, 2, vietnam, Korea, wars happen??
3. How could any god let September 11 happen?

All these innocent people that die, why does "god" choose for a three month old baby to die, how is it the babies time to go??

This isn't meant to be insulting anyone or anything.. I'd just like to see their views on "god"

And hearing about these miracles where people get in a car jam on sept 11, and they would have been working.. That's small comport to the 4500 people who died.

Because crap happens.

How you deal with that crap is what defines what and who you are (if you believe in God, if you worship dandelions, if you believe that fruit trees are divine). Some believe God is responsible for everything and some believe that God is nothing more than a guy on the 50 yard line of life watching the game of life (regardless of who wins).

Regardless of what you think… and what happens in the world… what is important is how you respond. Do you look for “what bad thing happened” and “who’s to blame” or do you decide that because of horrible events you want to become a better person so things like this are less likely to happen tomorrow or when your children hit the freeway of life.

Crap happens. Finding someone (God) to blame is easy. Becoming a better person after bad things happen is what the game of life is all about.

Originally posted by MadDoctor
Because crap happens.

How you deal with that crap is what defines what and who you are (if you believe in God, if you worship dandelions, if you believe that fruit trees are divine). Some believe God is responsible for everything and some believe that God is nothing more than a guy on the 50 yard line of life watching the game of life (regardless of who wins).

Regardless of what you think… and what happens in the world… what is important is how you respond. Do you look for “what bad thing happened” and “who’s to blame” or do you decide that because of horrible events you want to become a better person so things like this are less likely to happen tomorrow or when your children hit the freeway of life.

Crap happens. Finding someone (God) to blame is easy. Becoming a better person after bad things happen is what the game of life is all about.

I don't beleive in God so I'm not the kind of person who blames him when I stub my toe, it was just my own dumb fault for being careless..

BUT. If there was a god, who created us, took care of us. Made sure we thrived as a civilization, why wouldn't he go the extra mile and make sure nothing bad happened??

Not to shabby.......5 hours and 2 pages later...


And a lot of ideas shared. Nothing wrong with that.

And ....just for those who are now reading this..a public apology to Paft..I had misread one of his posts and pm'd him the same.

It's edited...to omit his quote.

God does not let it happen

If he is all seeing and all knowing and has the power to shape a world in a weeks time I am pretty sure he could have made a few very bad people stop breathing.

I love how some people, in one explanation say everything is "god's will" and then when the bad stuff happens it is because we apparently have "free will".

I would guess that in these times a large percentage of believers in god(s) (western society in particular, Yes us Americans) do so out of habit and fear. If you are taught from as far back as you can remember that if you don't believe in all of this god/ bible stuff that you will BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY I wouldn't find it suprising if some people believed purely out of fear.

Mutch, I would respectfully like to point something out to you.

You mentioned Adam and Eve and The Bible. You also indicated that you are not very familiar with The Bible. Okay, that's fine, but I just want you to be aware that The Bible makes reference to more than one Adam (I Cor 15:42-49). Also be aware that the name Adam is used to identify a group of people (Gen 5:2). And finally, the name Eve is not necessarily the name of a person. It could be a symbolic reference to time. A time of day, a season, or a stage in the intellectual, spiritual or material development of a people.

I'm not going to embellish on this. Just wanted to give you some food for thought.

Originally posted by Arson_ist


If he is all seeing and all knowing and has the power to shape a world in a weeks time I am pretty sure he could have made a few very bad people stop breathing.

I love how some people, in one explanation say everything is "god's will" and then when the bad stuff happens it is because we apparently have "free will".

I will give you an example of what I meant and this might help explain things.

It was the free will of Bin Laden and the terrorists on 9-11 to do what they did.

It was God's decision on that day, who was going to live and who was going to die. The people who died, their time was up. The people who never went to work that day, that was because they are not ready yet and still have a reason to be here.


I can give you another example :

Lets take a situation where a bank is held up, and one of the robbers shoots one of the tellers. The teller survives miraculously.

It was the free will of the robber to shoot that teller and hold up the bank, but it was not that person's time to die, so God stepped in and made sure that person stayed alive.

That bank robber will have to deal with his choices of robbing the bank and shooting the person with God when he dies.

I would guess that in these times a large percentage of believers in god(s) (western society in particular, Yes us Americans) do so out of habit and fear. If you are taught from as far back as you can remember that if you don't believe in all of this god/ bible stuff that you will BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY I wouldn't find it suprising if some people believed purely out of fear.

That is one thing that does bother me, how a lot of Church going people go to Church and save themselves and become born again, just because they are afraid of god. (my wife is a perfect example) I always said that one should not be afraid of god, because god only knows love.

so God stepped in and made sure that person stayed alive.

Exactly my point. He does "let it happen" since you believe he obviously has the choice to stop people from dying if he sees fit. So essentially what I take from that is that god has "let" millions of people die horrible tragic deaths. Why would god not step in and save a child from being murdered if he truly loves us? Or the people on Sept11th?

(last post, I feel argumentative for some reason.)

Yes I do

Originally posted by Arson_ist


Exactly my point. He does "let it happen" since you believe he obviously has the choice to stop people from dying if he sees fit. So essentially what I take from that is that god has "let" millions of people die horrible tragic deaths. Why would god not step in and save a child from being murdered if he truly loves us? Or the people on Sept11th?

(last post, I feel argumentative for some reason.)

It is all how you look at it from what perspective. I dont look at death as being bad.

Now dont get me wrong, I am not saying it is ok for people to kill people, or that I was not sad when my grandfather died.

Losing a child can be really tough, but you go on. What does one learn from it? A person usually becomes stronger spiritually after.

God did step in and save thousands of people on the 11th, close to 20,000 people are in the wtc daily between both towers, 2900 died (not sure if that number is all from 9-11, or just wtc)


Did you know thousands were saved at the wtc underground at the subway stations when the path train operators had some smart thinking behind them?

What about the heroes on flight 93? How many lives did they save that day?

I try not to always look at the negative. Lets look at the positive.

davy19, I'm trying to understand you from your words and what I know from the Bible (It should be capitalized, for as much as one may hate it, it /is/ still a book).



1.) God does not know hatred.

2.) God chooses who will live and who will die.

3.) Humans have free will.

4.) Humans have a predestined fate (God's will).



Now, just using those four points, I will try to construct a scenario where it would defy logic to follow your path, and I want you to explain it to me. I'm trying to understand where you are coming from. (I never understood when I /was/ a Christian).



A young homosexual boy is walking down the road. He is bothering nobody, just humming to himself and marvelling the wonderus world created by God. Suddenly, an older man jumps out of the bushes and beats the Homosexual boy to within an inch of his life while yelling Christian verses. Later, when the boy is brought home, he commits suicide in utter depression.



Now, let me add some other things in to the mix here.



1.) God hates Homosexuals.

"Psalm 11:5 - The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth."

In the Bible, Homosexuality is "wicked". Therfore, God hates Homosexuals.

2.) The boy (who was a Christian) used his free will to commit an act caused by the depression that was caused by a Christian.



So was it in God's Will to have that boy die? And if he died, was it because God hated him?

Perhaps you could explain this?

You brought up some interesting ideas and I will try to explain from what I believe. One thing is I do not consider myself a Christian. I am a Spiritualist, so what I believe in I am sure most Christians will not, for example reincarnation, even though early Gnostic Christians did believe in reincarnation.


Yes it was God's will that the boy died, otherwise his suicide would not be successful.

He did not die because God hated him. Why was it his time to die? I do not know.


As far as homosexuality goes, I really do not think God cares one way or the other if you are heterosexual or homosexual. As long as you love one another. Since I do believe in reincarnation I do believe you might be a man in this life, but a women in another.

Originally posted by davy19
Yes it was God's will that the boy died, otherwise his suicide would not be successful.

But then there is no free will, is there? If I had truly "free will", I could die wether it was God's will or not. If God's will dictated that the boy wasn't supposed to die, then his free will is shot by the way of not being able to take his own life.

But he controlls us (if he exists), even in just that regard. So it's a contradiction, isn't it?

My opinion is a little oversimplified but i believe the same 'nothingness' that existed before birth will be same 'nothingness' that will exist after death. I went to church since the day i was born until shortly after i was married and I've spent countless hours thinking about this subject. I have come up with no reason(s) to 'believe' otherwise.

Originally posted by Paft


But then there is no free will, is there? If I had truly "free will", I could die wether it was God's will or not. If God's will dictated that the boy wasn't supposed to die, then his free will is shot by the way of not being able to take his own life.

But he controlls us (if he exists), even in just that regard. So it's a contradiction, isn't it?

Sort of, you have what I call quasi free will

You have free will, but except when it comes time to die, and there are certain events that I believe will happen no matter what, they can be big or small.

Ok reading this has got my head spinning!

Davy says that when people commit acts, ie Osama it is their own will, and not gods.

But in that little story, when the kid kills himself, its gods act, God didnt make the kid kill himself.. It was his own choice, but you said that Osama wasnt gods will??

Hfffffffmmm..

Originally posted by Mutch
Ok reading this has got my head spinning!

Davy says that when people commit acts, ie Osama it is their own will, and not gods.

But in that little story, when the kid kills himself, its gods act, God didnt make the kid kill himself.. It was his own choice, but you said that Osama wasnt gods will??

Hfffffffmmm..

No, God did not make the kid commit suicide, but if it was his time to die, the boy would have died some other way if it was not for the suicide.


As far as Osama goes, it was Osama free will to do what he did, and the people who died, was because their time was up. the people who survived their time was not up. If Osama did not do what he did, then those people who died, would have died some other way, because it was their time.

So your saying that if the boy didn't kill himself god would have sent a comet or something and killed the boy, right when he would have killed himself with the suicide.. Aren't you confusing yourself.. Damn.

And god would have made the guy beat the hell out of the gay kid. Isn't that against religion..

Respect thy neighbor?? LoL I don't know if this is the same religion.. But.. Worth a shot.

*gracefully bows out of the discussion for now*

Thank you, Davy. I never did understand the "we have free will" "god's will" argument. That quasi-free-will cleared it up.

*likes knowing where people are coming from so that he can /try/ to be more open minded*

Originally posted by Mutch
So your saying that if the boy didn't kill himself god would have sent a comet or something and killed the boy, right when he would have killed himself with the suicide.. Aren't you confusing yourself.. Damn.

And god would have made the guy beat the hell out of the gay kid. Isn't that against religion..

Respect thy neighbor?? LoL I don't know if this is the same religion.. But.. Worth a shot.

I am not sure about a comet, but I guess anything can happen.

I am not saying it would happen the exact same time he would have committed suicide. Lets say the boy committed suicicde at 8:42 PM on December 12, 2000, but then lets say he did not but it was really his time to die, it does not mean he will die that same time.

The other side time is totally different.

Alright. Im out of this discussion.. I can't beleive what some people think is the truth.