I know not much coverage was given this event in the USA, but it was of course a Tragedy here in Canada & therefore commanded a lot of Press & Media Coverage.
This just broke Today.
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THE OFFICIALS SAID the investigation report found that the F-16 pilot, Maj. Harry Schmidt of the Illinois Air National Guard, did not take time to properly assess the threat on the ground before dropping a 500-pound laser-guided bomb.
The 1,500-page report recommends that Schmidt and a fellow F-16 guard pilot, Maj. William Umbach, face an Article 32 hearing that could lead to criminal or other charges against them. Such a hearing is the military version of a civilian grand jury.
The bombing of the Canadian troops on April 18 was among the deadliest “friendly fire” incidents of the 9-month war in Afghanistan and was the first time that Canadian soldiers have been killed in a combat zone since the Korean War.
The U.S. military officials, who asked not to be identified, told Reuters the report had not yet been presented to top-level Pentagon officials, but it found that Schmidt did not check properly before he dropped his bomb on the Canadians as they conducted a nighttime live-fire exercise on the ground south of Kandahar in southern Afghanistan.
Umbach, an Air National Guard squadron commander, also let things get out of control, according to one official.
SEASONED PILOT
Details of the report were published in The New York Times and The Washington Post on Wednesday. The Times said Schmidt is a seasoned former Navy pilot and instructor at the Navy’s elite Top Gun weapons school.
Canada is conducting a parallel investigation, but the U.S. probe found that Schmidt dropped the bomb after being told by air controllers not to release a weapon until further checks were made.
But after seeing ground fire and believing his flight was threatened, he dropped the bomb instead of leaving the area to assess the threat and plan a counterstrike.
U.S. President George W. Bush and Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien had pledged a thorough investigation.
The soldiers of the Third Battalion of the Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry had only been firing on surface targets in a recognized training ground, and Canada’s top general, Ray Henault, said the U.S. commander in the region had been fully informed of the exercise.
The U.S. investigation was headed by Air Force Brig. Gen. Stephen Sargeant.
American military officials said the report still remained to be approved by senior officers.
WASHINGTON, June 19 — A military investigation has found that a U.S. fighter pilot did not follow proper procedures when he mistakenly bombed Canadian troops in Afghanistan in April.
Killing Four Canadian Soldiers and injuring Eight more, U.S. military officials said on Wednesday.
A sad situation imho on both sides of the coin.
Stress can be a killer.
regards
minir
U.S. Pilots Faulted in Canadian War Deaths
Thanks for posting this news. We finally get the truth about the incident.
I think it's a great time to remember these two threads:
https://www.speedguide.net/forums/ ... adid=75468
https://www.speedguide.net/forums/ ... adid=76429
We no longer have one particular SGer here who dared to post some views about this topic. How dare he voice an opinion or tone that others don't want to hear.
I think it's a great time to remember these two threads:
https://www.speedguide.net/forums/ ... adid=75468
https://www.speedguide.net/forums/ ... adid=76429
We no longer have one particular SGer here who dared to post some views about this topic. How dare he voice an opinion or tone that others don't want to hear.
Hi torsten
I did not post this information to dredge up long past issues, rather to inform those who may be interested in the Current Report, as to what happened in the eyes of those investigating the issue.
As to the member who left and i assume you mean " jz "
his absence has not been mourned by many imho. He also left of his own accord not by the actions of others here.
On departing he had a lot to say, but little if i am any judge of what goes on here that held much interest to those who remained. Simply his world as he saw it, no more.
He departed with Cheap shots to those of us here & see ya.
Not something that most would respect imho.
-----
Back to the matter at hand.
It was a Tragedy of great proportion that impacted the lives of many.
Was it avoidable, it appears yes, however the stress of War conditions does take it's toll and people do unexpected things under duress.
It will play out over time and the truth will unfold & hopefully We All will learn something constructive from it.
regards
minir
I did not post this information to dredge up long past issues, rather to inform those who may be interested in the Current Report, as to what happened in the eyes of those investigating the issue.
As to the member who left and i assume you mean " jz "
his absence has not been mourned by many imho. He also left of his own accord not by the actions of others here.
On departing he had a lot to say, but little if i am any judge of what goes on here that held much interest to those who remained. Simply his world as he saw it, no more.
He departed with Cheap shots to those of us here & see ya.
Not something that most would respect imho.
-----
Back to the matter at hand.
It was a Tragedy of great proportion that impacted the lives of many.
Was it avoidable, it appears yes, however the stress of War conditions does take it's toll and people do unexpected things under duress.
It will play out over time and the truth will unfold & hopefully We All will learn something constructive from it.
regards
minir
Minir,
Yes that was a very sad day indeed when this incident happened. It hit me very hard because i back what is going on over there. My prayers went out immediately to the families that lost there loved ones in this incident.
Cyborg that is a very biased opinion. But stating that the pilot would drop a bomb on the city is so asinine. You are entitled to your opinion. Just like i am with my opinion.
What occurred was a very sad incident. And if you have never flew a combat mission, (i have not neither) i feel your comment about the pilot is way out of line.
But i have called in numerous close air support requests while i was serving. And every single time my CAS was placed exactly where i wanted it to be.
I do not have all the details on what occurred with this incident, i will not judge anybody till then. As i stated above it was a sad day when this incident happened.
Yes that was a very sad day indeed when this incident happened. It hit me very hard because i back what is going on over there. My prayers went out immediately to the families that lost there loved ones in this incident.
Originally posted by Cyborg
How come Canada sent its troop after the War???
The same goes for the rest of the world.
Talk about reaction i bet the pilot would still drop the bomb even if he was over a city.
Cyborg that is a very biased opinion. But stating that the pilot would drop a bomb on the city is so asinine. You are entitled to your opinion. Just like i am with my opinion.
What occurred was a very sad incident. And if you have never flew a combat mission, (i have not neither) i feel your comment about the pilot is way out of line.
But i have called in numerous close air support requests while i was serving. And every single time my CAS was placed exactly where i wanted it to be.
I do not have all the details on what occurred with this incident, i will not judge anybody till then. As i stated above it was a sad day when this incident happened.
It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the fredom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, serves under the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag. De Oppresso Liber
Cyborg
To the best of my knowledge limited as it may be, the War still continues and Canada and Many other Countries have participated from the get go, as their help or expertize was required.
It appears from my perspective your sole mission in life is to disrupt this Forum and insult it's members, so it is time i now place you on my Ignore List.
Congratulations as that really takes some doing.
regards
minir
To the best of my knowledge limited as it may be, the War still continues and Canada and Many other Countries have participated from the get go, as their help or expertize was required.
It appears from my perspective your sole mission in life is to disrupt this Forum and insult it's members, so it is time i now place you on my Ignore List.
Congratulations as that really takes some doing.
regards
minir
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Deus ex Machina
- Posts: 2722
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- Location: lost in a dream
I read the threads at the time and again now.Originally posted by torsten
Thanks for posting this news. We finally get the truth about the incident.
I think it's a great time to remember these two threads:
https://www.speedguide.net/forums/ ... adid=75468
https://www.speedguide.net/forums/ ... adid=76429
We no longer have one particular SGer here who dared to post some views about this topic. How dare he voice an opinion or tone that others don't want to hear.
Torsen..... Freedom of speech is occasionally paired with disagreement and subsequent contempt for those with who confront us. Pardon my redundancy, but are we not responsible for what we choose to say? Jz choose his path, I wish him well.
shant,
david
blessed be................
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Deus ex Machina
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- Location: lost in a dream
Hi Deus ex Machina
Thank You David.
It impacted very heavily here in Canada as you can imagine.
It has been handled openly & by both Governments and with the respect it should be accorded, to those who where directly involved and their Families and Loved Ones.
They now have to relive it again David, something i'm sure that Prayer will give them the strength they require to face the loss once more.
regards
minir
I will take a moment of silence and prayer for our fallen Canadian brothers.
Thank You David.
It impacted very heavily here in Canada as you can imagine.
It has been handled openly & by both Governments and with the respect it should be accorded, to those who where directly involved and their Families and Loved Ones.
They now have to relive it again David, something i'm sure that Prayer will give them the strength they require to face the loss once more.
regards
minir
Yes, we are responsible, and technically jz did "choose" to leave, but he was certainly pushed, to say the least. Unfairly I thought. It was a nasty piling on. I don't get too upset when just 1 person goes off on another, but when a group does it to one, I think it's pretty damn sick.Originally posted by Deus ex Machina
I read the threads at the time and again now.
Torsen..... Freedom of speech is occasionally paired with disagreement and subsequent contempt for those with who confront us. Pardon my redundancy, but are we not responsible for what we choose to say? Jz choose his path, I wish him well.
And that's exactly my point.... what a mob thinks of him, has almost no validity in assessing the value of his contribution. The very thing that the gang attacked -- his voicing counter opinions in unorthodox (they called it "negative") ways -- is something that's needed wherever there's too strong a group consensus.Originally posted by minir
his absence has not been mourned by many imho. He also left of his own accord not by the actions of others here.
On departing he had a lot to say, but little, if i am any judge of what goes on here, that held much interest to those who remained.
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chevyman282
- Senior Member
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Hi Larry. Thanks for the update on the Canadian Soldiers who lost there lives in this incident, my prayers are still with the families who lost loved ones in this unfortunate incident.....
As a US Citizen, I know we can never repay the Canadians who lost their lives or there families, who have to live that day in and day out.....
The only thing I can pray for also, is that the needless sacrafice of these men may be a lesson learned by the Military, so that no other lives will be lost in a similar friendly fire incident...
"God Bless the Canadians"!
As a US Citizen, I know we can never repay the Canadians who lost their lives or there families, who have to live that day in and day out.....
The only thing I can pray for also, is that the needless sacrafice of these men may be a lesson learned by the Military, so that no other lives will be lost in a similar friendly fire incident...
"God Bless the Canadians"!
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer "Present" or "Not guilty."
– Theodore Roosevelt
– Theodore Roosevelt
Hi torsten & chevyman282
torsten
I appears what you call a Group, is actually singular people who agree on something they choose to differ with.
What happened imho was several individuals did not agree with his views, so they are therefore designated a Group, how convenient.
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Hi chevyman282
Yes chevyman282 , i believe that to be the biggest and most appropriate blessing that can come from this situation.
Thanks for your Prayers, they i am sure will gain a measure of comfort to those in need.
regards
minir
torsten
I don't get too upset when just 1 person goes off on another, but when a group does it to one, I think it's pretty damn sick.
I appears what you call a Group, is actually singular people who agree on something they choose to differ with.
What happened imho was several individuals did not agree with his views, so they are therefore designated a Group, how convenient.
---------
Hi chevyman282
The only thing I can pray for also, is that the needless sacrifice of these men may be a lesson learned by the Military, so that no other lives will be lost in a similar friendly fire incident...
Yes chevyman282 , i believe that to be the biggest and most appropriate blessing that can come from this situation.
Thanks for your Prayers, they i am sure will gain a measure of comfort to those in need.
regards
minir
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Deus ex Machina
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In my view it is a group. Yes, as minir says, they are "singular people," but all groups are made up of such. Maybe the fact that they're in different locations and only connected by the internet is an important distinction for some, but to me they were acting as a group.
And yes, jz could have reworded his position, but I'm not willing to assign responsibility so singularly. Responsibility flows in the other direction as well. Maybe moreso since with numbers the power of intimidation grows.
And yes, jz could have reworded his position, but I'm not willing to assign responsibility so singularly. Responsibility flows in the other direction as well. Maybe moreso since with numbers the power of intimidation grows.
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Deus ex Machina
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Hi downhill
On behalf of those concerned, Thanks you downhill.
We are two Countries joined at the hip, but with differing views on many matters. That is as it should be imho.
However there is a trust i believe between the two, shared by few other Nations and when something of this nature takes place we feel it on both sides of the border.
It is a very sad situation for all concerned, but one i hope serves a higher purpose in the end.
regards
minir
On behalf of those concerned, Thanks you downhill.
We are two Countries joined at the hip, but with differing views on many matters. That is as it should be imho.
However there is a trust i believe between the two, shared by few other Nations and when something of this nature takes place we feel it on both sides of the border.
It is a very sad situation for all concerned, but one i hope serves a higher purpose in the end.
regards
minir
T,
I have to disagree with your logic.
First off, if you extend what you're saying then right now, YOU are being ganged up on. In fact, if EVER more than one person disagrees with you.. you're being ganged up on. It makes no sense if you think about it. jz was not shouted down, or censored by the mods or Admins of Speedguide. Since only the mods or Admins can actually stop someone from posting, there is no real coercion by disagreement. None of you can actually carry out a threat to remove someone or shut them up. Since that cannot happen, there is no threat. If other speedguide members choose to call him on his behaviour then they have as much right to do so as he has to post his views.
Finally, no offense, but I find the concept of necessary other views to be flawed. It sounds good in principle, but who on a ship at sea would seriously argue that sinking the ship is a good idea? Who in a plane would argue against the majority that turning off the engines is the right thing to do. And why does their arguing so serve any valid purpose?
It does not. About the only time a loyal opposition (which is what you're describing) has any intrinsic use is in a legislative environment where a devils advocate can help write a better law. Other than that, it's just someone with a different view.
Frequently stating the view for attention based reasons.
Arguing that black is white and up is down just to do so doesn't really serve any purpose. It sounds nice, but it's not really very valuable.
Regards,
-Bouncer-
I have to disagree with your logic.
First off, if you extend what you're saying then right now, YOU are being ganged up on. In fact, if EVER more than one person disagrees with you.. you're being ganged up on. It makes no sense if you think about it. jz was not shouted down, or censored by the mods or Admins of Speedguide. Since only the mods or Admins can actually stop someone from posting, there is no real coercion by disagreement. None of you can actually carry out a threat to remove someone or shut them up. Since that cannot happen, there is no threat. If other speedguide members choose to call him on his behaviour then they have as much right to do so as he has to post his views.
Finally, no offense, but I find the concept of necessary other views to be flawed. It sounds good in principle, but who on a ship at sea would seriously argue that sinking the ship is a good idea? Who in a plane would argue against the majority that turning off the engines is the right thing to do. And why does their arguing so serve any valid purpose?
It does not. About the only time a loyal opposition (which is what you're describing) has any intrinsic use is in a legislative environment where a devils advocate can help write a better law. Other than that, it's just someone with a different view.
Frequently stating the view for attention based reasons.
Arguing that black is white and up is down just to do so doesn't really serve any purpose. It sounds nice, but it's not really very valuable.
Regards,
-Bouncer-
Bouncer, I don't feel ganged up on in this thread. That's because you, minir, and DeM just expressed a different viewpoint, and I had no reason to think there was any any personal hostility behind it. That didn't seem to be the case with the remarks toward jz. And I never claimed he was censored or banned. He was confronted by several who made it rather clear, through statement or implication, that he was not liked or welcome and that they'd be glad if he were gone. To me that's not the same as disagreeing on a debate topic. I think ideas are great punching bags. Beat the **** out of them. But people are different.
To be clear, I'm not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to be mean or hostile on a forum. I'm certainly not suggesting that SG start policing this with a policy or something. I'd like to see less censorship, not more. I'm just saying, as my own personal opinion, that I think it's slimy when people band together to do that to someone.
Apart from the jz specifics and on a more general level I disagree with your idea that opposing viewpoints aren't inherently valuable. Whether a particular dissent is logical or not may be the best test of its validity, but not its value. A persistent philosophical opposing view is a benefit to society as a whole, not just to a legislative body. If nothing else, it keeps a channel open that majorities would often prefer be closed. In other words its exercise keeps reminding people of an important principle that is a foundation of free thought and a free society.
I've been in all kinds of groups --- forums, classrooms, cliques, families, etc. where those with different views have been silenced through intimidation or just run off. After that happens, an insidious form of agreement grows. It's not really agreement in an objective sense, but more of a consensus that nobody in their right minds would disagree with us on these fundamental issues. And at that point, the subject is closed. The problem with that is that society is currently fragmenting into smaller groups. People are isolating themselves from people who think and live differently than they do. And ultimately these social enclaves shape their thinking.
Your plane and ship examples are simply isolating extreme incidents in order to discredit the value of a sound idea. It's kind of like when people use extreme examples of frivolous lawsuits so they can advocate changing the legal system to the point that people with legitimate claims will find it difficult to get a remedy.
Of course all that discussion kind of gets away from the simple point I was getting at with the jz thing...... which is essentially, mean people suck.
To be clear, I'm not saying that people shouldn't be allowed to be mean or hostile on a forum. I'm certainly not suggesting that SG start policing this with a policy or something. I'd like to see less censorship, not more. I'm just saying, as my own personal opinion, that I think it's slimy when people band together to do that to someone.
Apart from the jz specifics and on a more general level I disagree with your idea that opposing viewpoints aren't inherently valuable. Whether a particular dissent is logical or not may be the best test of its validity, but not its value. A persistent philosophical opposing view is a benefit to society as a whole, not just to a legislative body. If nothing else, it keeps a channel open that majorities would often prefer be closed. In other words its exercise keeps reminding people of an important principle that is a foundation of free thought and a free society.
I've been in all kinds of groups --- forums, classrooms, cliques, families, etc. where those with different views have been silenced through intimidation or just run off. After that happens, an insidious form of agreement grows. It's not really agreement in an objective sense, but more of a consensus that nobody in their right minds would disagree with us on these fundamental issues. And at that point, the subject is closed. The problem with that is that society is currently fragmenting into smaller groups. People are isolating themselves from people who think and live differently than they do. And ultimately these social enclaves shape their thinking.
Your plane and ship examples are simply isolating extreme incidents in order to discredit the value of a sound idea. It's kind of like when people use extreme examples of frivolous lawsuits so they can advocate changing the legal system to the point that people with legitimate claims will find it difficult to get a remedy.
Of course all that discussion kind of gets away from the simple point I was getting at with the jz thing...... which is essentially, mean people suck.
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Deus ex Machina
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hmmmm. Can't say that I can disagree with either of those 3 sentences, ensconced as they are behind an impregnable opaque fortress. If I could only figure out where their guns are aimed...Originally posted by Deus ex Machina
Torsten,
Discussions can be as simple as tic tac toe or as complex as chess. There are illegal moves that defy the game or argument. There are illogical moves and premises that can be made to assure defeat.
Maybe I should duck just in case.
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Deus ex Machina
- Posts: 2722
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 12:00 pm
- Location: lost in a dream
<snicker> Nothing I say is beyond reproach, and I intended no malice. Sorry for seeming a bit officious.Originally posted by torsten
hmmmm. Can't say that I can disagree with either of those 3 sentences, ensconced as they are behind an impregnable opaque fortress. If I could only figure out where their guns are aimed...
Maybe I should duck just in case.
I is done here...
shant,
david
blessed be................
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RoundEye
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- Location: In a dry but moldy New Orleans, Louisiana
torsten, I must admit I don't like the "mob mentality" myself. At one point i used to think it was just me who thought jz was always negative. Then others mentioned it too. So I guess I'm guilty of beating on jz too.
The thing is many people seemed to agree. Instead of debating something, he would just post a few words that seemed to piss off a lot of people. Nothing was ever good enough for him.
I know if a lot of people here didn't want me around, I would leave. There' no need for me to stay where I'm not wanted. I have nothing to prove to anyone here.
To be honest I don't miss him one bit. At one point we had a lot of good people here. I guess they got tired of all the BS fighting and left. Why lose the all the nice, pleasent people just to keep one jerk-off happy?
The thing is many people seemed to agree. Instead of debating something, he would just post a few words that seemed to piss off a lot of people. Nothing was ever good enough for him.
I know if a lot of people here didn't want me around, I would leave. There' no need for me to stay where I'm not wanted. I have nothing to prove to anyone here.
To be honest I don't miss him one bit. At one point we had a lot of good people here. I guess they got tired of all the BS fighting and left. Why lose the all the nice, pleasent people just to keep one jerk-off happy?
Sliding down the banister of life ..........................