unions are greedy and selfish.

[onetrueday]

I'm not really anti-union, I'm anti-laziness. I suppose I'm pro-company when it comes to long term growth and job security. That's my biggest problem. There are numerious examples of when a company and a union work together. However, there are also henious examples of a union and it's workers not giving a damn where the money comes from; only that they get raises for the same or LESS work throughput and effort.

It is truly amazing how ill-informed we are! I have two excellant examples. This dock lockout is a perfect one. If I didnt listen to NPR, I wouldnt have known this had happened. That is just SHAMEFUL on the part of the national media. Too busy focusing on violence to look at the real issues that SHAPE our lives.

Another example, and one that has nothing to do with this thread is pakistan and israel. If I havent been reading up on the situation and listening to NPR, I would believe that the pakistan people are horrible. I would believe that israel should keep IT'S land without question. I did not learn in school how israel was formed. I also did not learn that egypt also claimed some of pakistan for it's own, over 15% of previous pakistan land in fact.

I thank god everyday that I belong to a union. I've also come to realize that most people cant be happy no matter what situation they're in.

[mikemean]

I am a member of The United Food And Commercial Workers Local #8. My union has always been there for me whenever I had a question. In fact, they do get kind of pissed because hardly anyone shows up for the union meetings. They always tell us "We are here to work for you, that is why you pay union dues". I have no problem with my union.

[Ghosthunter]

Funny no one responed to any of my posts how unions get so violent, when things dont go their way.

I guess most people support unions and their bully tactics?

[terrancelam]

I just wanted to say, I can't see how my comments inspired what OTD said. Being morally and ethically responsble for your workers and the publc in the general doesn't mean that a company can't be efficent, it just means they aren't trying to because they won't make as much money if they just did what they wanted to, I.E use child labour, make workers sign a no overtime statement, few hours, less holiday pay, fewer sick days, over working a employee, the list goes on. Many of these things happened in the workplace because unions didn't exist, but this sure as hell doesn't constitute "laziness" on the part of the workers. It gave them fair standing with the corporations, which is what the unions are supposed to do.
As for how they are functioning or not functioning now, they still have a role to play, but its falling apart because the people just don't care about their well being anymore because they have it good.

[onetrueday]

wait!

You didnt make me write that... it only gave me some thoughts I wanted to share. So, I hope you dont think it was a response or anything like that. Even so, I'm trying to understand all of this. There are so many angles and 'truths' that people believe. I guess I just really want to understand.

[Inverse]

I'm a member of the Grocery Union..

[mikemean]

Originally posted by Inverse
I'm a member of the Grocery Union..

I believe that would be United Food And Commercial Workers.

Oh, and I do not think my union is a bully. The last time we had a contract negotiation it went pretty smooth.

[Ghosthunter]

Originally posted by mikemean
I believe that would be United Food And Commercial Workers.

Oh, and I do not think my union is a bully. The last time we had a contract negotiation it went pretty smooth.

It must be a NY only thing, maybe the mafia is only involved with NY unions, I dont know.

[downhill]

Originally posted by davy19
Funny no one responed to any of my posts how unions get so violent, when things dont go their way.

I guess most people support unions and their bully tactics?

davy19, the past is loaded with DEAD bodies of those who would even think if trying to form a union...Some in the not so distant past.

In the 50's and early 60's, Ford was hiring an internal police force who's job it was to beat the living crap out of union members and organizers.

What were you saying again?

Murder vs. bully tactics...hummm...I'm trying to figure out your logic.

[Deus ex Machina]

The formation of unions and the storied Pinkertons is a classic read.

Unions became a necessity with the industrial age. Advances in transportation have the American blue collar worker competing with foreign, non-union counterparts who are making a pittance... It speaks volumes with regard to the greed of many American corporations.

I concur that unions have gone amok in a few areas. I have witnessed laziness and demands for payment when no work was done (even if was the fault of the worker himself!). The NYC electricians union might very well be the worst offender. If you have the temerity to plug a computer at an exposition that they have dominion, a "worker" may very well cut the cord claiming that the dievice might not be safe. For 110 USD, the union employee with go onsite, check the voltage and wattage requirement on the back of the device and plug it in for you.

Great thread OTD!!

shant,
david

[mikemean]

I have to re-affirm my union support. Look at my post about my boss being a total bitch. They are going to be there 100% for ME. My boss had no right to do what she did and the union agreed. That's why if there is going to be a meeting between my boss and I, my union rep will be there.

[Croc]

Well this has certainly opened up a great debate and I also say thanks to OTD for the inspiration to start it.

One thing that was mentioned early in the thread was the way the Unions go about negotiating an agreement and the outlandish pay and benefits that are asked for. No one has yet mentioned the equally outlandish pay and benefits that are offered by companies when they start these negotiations.
Example:

Pay claim by Union = 25% per year for 3 years.
Pay claim by Management = 3% per year for 4 years.
Union = Income Protection paid for by the company.
Management = No Income Protection.

Maybe it's timely to introduce one of Downhill's "Word of the Day" words. Its "AMBIT". That's what these claims are. Nothing more, nothing less.

Then we get to the smaller issues that have been claimed for and at the end of the day a document is presented that effectively puts us back to the start of the first day.

I flew to Melbourne no less than 5 times for 2 and 3 day meetings along with Delegates from all plants in Au and this is what happened almost every day.
What did we end up with?
5.5% per year over 3 years.
Income Protection paid for.
Protection from termination through involuntary redundancy.
Protection of overtime rights over daylabour casuals.
And a few other concessions.
Oh, and a 5 week strike sort of helped the negotiations along when it was clear there was to be no movement from the Management Team.
Without the Union we would have none of the conditions we have now and would all be on Individual Contracts. If anyone wants to read about them, copy/paste those 2 words into Google.

Thanks for the insight, WhoNut. Maybe a slowdown was what was needed to get something done. How many times were Management asked to meetings to resolve the issue/s? How much easier would it be to sit down in neutral territory and sort these issues out instead of playing hardball. All that does is get the masses stirred.

End of rant. Sorry for the length.

Croc.

[onetrueday]

I suppose part of my feelings stem from the people I work with. We do get cola(cost of living increases) and a small pay raise every contract. My question is since we get cost of living, why are we entitled to an additional pay raise if we dont get any more work done? Most jobs do carry additional wieght today and workers are more productive, that SHOULD entitle you to pay raises and increased benefits. However, at the post office that isnt happened. Co-workers expect these huge pay raises while they sit back on do nothing.

Gosh, can you tell that I was raised in a extreme christian household and that the second word I learned was GUILT?

[YARDofSTUF]

Originally posted by davy19
Funny no one responed to any of my posts how unions get so violent, when things dont go their way.

I guess most people support unions and their bully tactics?

i have seen no violence with my union and i dont think its a regular thign

[chevyman282]

Hello to all,
This thread on union workers is very interesting, and also very enlighting to me...I am a union member, pay my dues and do my work.....
One thing I want on the job, is to come home safe and sound every day, I do not want to lose a arm, a foot, or even a toenail.

From what I understand, the Dock workers have had 5 deaths alone this year, that is 5 to many, If it takes a xtra half hour to unload a shipment, so be it,,,at least a father, son, mother or sister will be home that evening enjoying there families....

this of course is my humble opinion.....
chevyman

[WhoNut]

Originally posted by chevyman282
From what I understand, the Dock workers have had 5 deaths alone this year, that is 5 to many, If it takes a xtra half hour to unload a shipment, so be it,,,at least a father, son, mother or sister will be home that evening enjoying there families....

No doubt, injuries and deaths on the job are senseless. I saw a longshoreman get fatally injured myself about 13 years ago, and I'll never forget it.

But here's the thing - safety wasn't an issue before contract negotiations started, and I'll bet my left arm it won't be an issue after they get a good contract.

The reason for workplace accidents are many, and too often the employer gets all the blame. In fact, we are legally liable for our employees actions while on the job. 75 years of labor laws have shielded laborers from a lot of common sense responsiblities.

Example: I can go out and tell a guy to put on his safety vest 20 times during his shift. If OSHA comes around and sees him without it, the company gets the citation, not the individual. That to me, is aggravating. I say fine the individual, and compliance will be stellar.

[downhill]

Originally posted by WhoNut
No doubt, injuries and deaths on the job are senseless. I saw a longshoreman get fatally injured myself about 13 years ago, and I'll never forget it.

But here's the thing - safety wasn't an issue before contract negotiations started, and I'll bet my left arm it won't be an issue after they get a good contract.

The reason for workplace accidents are many, and too often the employer gets all the blame. In fact, we are legally liable for our employees actions while on the job. 75 years of labor laws have shielded laborers from a lot of common sense responsiblities.

Example: I can go out and tell a guy to put on his safety vest 20 times during his shift. If OSHA comes around and sees him without it, the company gets the citation, not the individual. That to me, is aggravating. I say fine the individual, and compliance will be stellar.

Big difference between them and railroad workers. If I commit a "willfull and knowing" act, I'm held accountable by the FRA. The fines are stiff. Also OSHA is getting into the act and workers are liable for a fine for not following safety outlines.

[WhoNut]

Originally posted by downhill
Big difference between them and railroad workers. If I commit a "willfull and knowing" act, I'm held accountable by the FRA. The fines are stiff. Also OSHA is getting into the act and workers are liable for a fine for not following safety outlines.

Yes, the Longshore and Harborworker's act is very punitive to employers. I'm sure it was for a reason when it passed.

Presently though, our safety programs are driven largely due to the quest for lower insurance premiums. Some things about capitalism do work.

[Ghosthunter]

Originally posted by YARDofSTUF
i have seen no violence with my union and i dont think its a regular thign

In NY it is, dont cross a Union or you might just end in the hospital or worse dead.

[downhill]

Originally posted by davy19
In NY it is, dont cross a Union or you might just end in the hospital or worse dead.

Pics? LOL

How about a news article....

How about responding to my post about this issue? Just curious as to your real intent in this thread?

My union has been on strike once in my career..not a single act of violence. The other unions that are affiliated with the railroad I work for have been on strike maybe 10 times in my career...not a single act of violence. This is a HUGE company. With a history of violence. Mostly on the other side of the fence. Once again, I'll point out MURDER.

Are unions greedy? Of course....

Are employers greedy?....Even more so.