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Thread: Guns, Age Limit?

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    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Guns, Age Limit?

    So the latest buzz on gun rights is raising the minimum age for gun ownership to 21. Thoughts?

    Personally, I am all for it, people are not adults until they are in their mid 20's and guns are not for kids.
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    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    I'm for it. Todays kids are not like kids decades ago, need to raise the age limit to reflect that. Decades ago when we were teens we could walk down the street rifles over our shoulder, be out hunting, through the woods, down the street..people would drive by and not care. Heck back in high school we had a rifle club, students in the club would bring their rifles to school, on the school bus, in their locker. Heck some would bring rifles to school so they could go hunting with buddies on the way home from school.
    And many of us can recall the old pickup trucks with a rifle across the back window. Back then "problems" were solved by stepping outside and settling the score like boys should do...get into a fight, a fat lip, bruised ribs, or a bloody nose later...the score was settled and you were often playing later that afternoon as friends. Perhaps a teacher or the principle broke up the right..yelled at you, and that was that, it was over.

    These days kids are soooo socially challenged, just look at all this going on, they can't handle pressure or how to settle a score the normal way. They just bottle up til the cork blows and rampage at the school or at the public by raining bullets on people.

    To me, a carry permit is earned, not a right. I live in a relatively tough state when it comes to gun control laws, I went through my steps to get a permit, and do things correctly. These days I don't mind that you have to go through a thorough background check. I actually wish the background checks would do more, like dig into mental health records. Yes health records are bottled up tight, but they really need to open that up to law enforcement for background checks. > 75 or even 85% of the mass school shootings that have occured in the past 20 years, the shooter was some whacked out kid that had a long and lengthy documented history of mental problems and being on head meds and seeing a shrink. They gotta connect those dots now.
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    Administrator Philip's Avatar
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    I am not sure if raising the age limit will do much to curb mass shootings. A lot of those are done by adults, and even when done by teens they often get their weapons through a third-party/adult. Teens mature at a different age depending on their environment, it's hard to judge exact age limits... It will look good on paper, just not sure it will help much.

    I totally agree on expanding the background checks to be more universal and inclusive of mental health records! If that can't be accomplished, government can simply require a mental health certificate, and hold the doctors accountable with their licenses.

    Keeping the background check database current would help a lot also.

    Another step that would help is requiring background checks for firearms purchased from private individuals (only dealers are currently required to conduct background checks, even at gun shows). This varies a bit depending on the state, but most states do not require background checks for private sales.

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    resident plumber Mark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyboycool View Post
    So the latest buzz on gun rights is raising the minimum age for gun ownership to 21. Thoughts?

    Personally, I am all for it, people are not adults until they are in their mid 20's and guns are not for kids.
    tell that to the young members in our military, i'm pretty sure they can handle a gun better that most mid twenty something snowflakes.

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    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YeOldeStonecat View Post
    I'm for it. Todays kids are not like kids decades ago, need to raise the age limit to reflect that. Decades ago when we were teens we could walk down the street rifles over our shoulder, be out hunting, through the woods, down the street..people would drive by and not care. Heck back in high school we had a rifle club, students in the club would bring their rifles to school, on the school bus, in their locker. Heck some would bring rifles to school so they could go hunting with buddies on the way home from school.
    And many of us can recall the old pickup trucks with a rifle across the back window. Back then "problems" were solved by stepping outside and settling the score like boys should do...get into a fight, a fat lip, bruised ribs, or a bloody nose later...the score was settled and you were often playing later that afternoon as friends. Perhaps a teacher or the principle broke up the right..yelled at you, and that was that, it was over.

    These days kids are soooo socially challenged, just look at all this going on, they can't handle pressure or how to settle a score the normal way. They just bottle up til the cork blows and rampage at the school or at the public by raining bullets on people.

    To me, a carry permit is earned, not a right. I live in a relatively tough state when it comes to gun control laws, I went through my steps to get a permit, and do things correctly. These days I don't mind that you have to go through a thorough background check. I actually wish the background checks would do more, like dig into mental health records. Yes health records are bottled up tight, but they really need to open that up to law enforcement for background checks. > 75 or even 85% of the mass school shootings that have occured in the past 20 years, the shooter was some whacked out kid that had a long and lengthy documented history of mental problems and being on head meds and seeing a shrink. They gotta connect those dots now.
    While I agree with your sentiments on gun control, I got to say anyone who thinks differences need to be settled by fighting is the socially challenged individual. . . clearly. I think people like to romanticize the past due to a natural nostalgic bias; however, things are rarely as they like to remember them, and youths are just more emotional and prone to bad choices than adults; that is a biological reality that carries from generation to generation.
    Last edited by jeremyboycool; 03-12-18 at 06:11 PM.
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    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    tell that to the young members in our military, i'm pretty sure they can handle a gun better that most mid twenty something snowflakes.
    I have no problem expressing my views on gun rights regardless of whether the individual is in the military or not, and just because someone can "handle a gun" that does not mean they are an adult.
    Last edited by jeremyboycool; 03-12-18 at 06:37 PM.
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    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philip View Post
    I am not sure if raising the age limit will do much to curb mass shootings. A lot of those are done by adults, and even when done by teens they often get their weapons through a third-party/adult. Teens mature at a different age depending on their environment, it's hard to judge exact age limits... It will look good on paper, just not sure it will help much.

    I totally agree on expanding the background checks to be more universal and inclusive of mental health records! If that can't be accomplished, government can simply require a mental health certificate, and hold the doctors accountable with their licenses.

    Keeping the background check database current would help a lot also.

    Another step that would help is requiring background checks for firearms purchased from private individuals (only dealers are currently required to conduct background checks, even at gun shows). This varies a bit depending on the state, but most states do not require background checks for private sales.
    Better background checks and checking for mental health issues would be great additions to gun control; I think most people agree on those two. I suppose in some cases you could say a youth is "maturing" faster than other, but biologically the brain does not reach adult maturity until the mid 20's.

    Changes in Young Adulthood
    At the same time that young adults are experiencing new levels of sophistication in thinking and emotional regulation, their brains are undergoing changes in precisely the areas associated with these functions. While it is not possible to determine cause-and-effect, brain and behavior are changing in parallel.

    Prefrontal cortex: The most widely studied changes in young adulthood are in the prefrontal cortex, the area behind the forehead associated with planning, problem-solving, and related tasks. At least two things affect the efficiency in its functioning:
    myelination: the nerve fibers are more extensively covered with myelin, a substance that insulates them so that signals can be transmitted more efficiently, and
    synaptic pruning: the "briar patch" of connections resulting from nerve growth are pruned back, allowing the remaining ones to transmit signals more efficiently.
    Connections among regions: At the same time, the prefrontal cortex communicates more fully and effectively with other parts of the brain, including those that are particularly associated with emotion and impulses, so that all areas of the brain can be better involved in planning and problem-solving.
    "Executive suite": The cluster of functions that center in the prefrontal cortex is sometimes called the "executive suite," including calibration of risk and reward, problem-solving, prioritizing, thinking ahead, self-evaluation, long-term planning, and regulation of emotion. (See Merlin Donald, Daniel Keating, and others in References.) It is not that these tasks cannot be done before young adulthood, but rather that it takes less effort, and hence is more likely to happen.
    20s and beyond
    According to recent findings, the human brain does not reach full maturity until at least the mid-20s. (See J. Giedd in References.) The specific changes that follow young adulthood are not yet well studied, but it is known that they involve increased myelination and continued adding and pruning of neurons. As a number of researchers have put it, "the rental car companies have it right." The brain isn't fully mature at 16, when we are allowed to drive, or at 18, when we are allowed to vote, or at 21, when we are allowed to drink, but closer to 25, when we are allowed to rent a car.
    http://hrweb.mit.edu/worklife/youngadult/brain.html
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    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    Another thing to expand on cross referencing against mental health, is..if someone in a house hold is mentally ill, some rules should be put in place for any firearms owned by other family members in that household. Look at the Sandy Hook tragedy, that kid Adam...his mom was a gun enthusiast. She had a closet full of guns. That kid had a mental history going back many years. She paid the ultimate price for her choice of a hobby, he shot her before going to the school to do more shooting.
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    Elite Member TonyT's Avatar
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    Almost 1 for 1, the school shooters were on or had been on some type of psychotropic medication(s). These youth were already under the care of a psychiatrist, psychologist or md. That the treatment they got made them worse is not spoken about by the major media who are funded by pharma companies.

    Children today are no more emotional than the children of a hundred years ago. Children are children, meaning that they have not yet acquired an education and competence in how to live life. They are influenced by many things and unfortunately, today's youth are too influenced by opinion leaders spewing a lot of mumbo jumbo about how to live life and what life is all about. They are taught that any violence is wrong, that fighting is bad, that it is better to walk away than to confront an enemy.

    Very often, it is best to not fight or to avoid confrontations. However, there are times when is should be done. That "bully" who does his deeds daily someday must be confronted and taught a lesson, else he'll continue to be a bully. A bloody nose in not the end of the world.

    When I went to grade school we all carried pocket knives. We were not allowed to play with them in class and we never had the idea that they were weapons. We regarded them as tools. Today's youth are taught not to confront and face things. They are taught that the environment is dangerous and contains many threatening things. They are taught knives are threatening, guns are threatening, fighting is threatening, etc. Any thing prohibited is considered dangerous, thus one is taught to avoid rather than face things.

    The youth of today are no different than the youth of yesterday. What has changed are the rules, the edu system, the mental health system and the disciplinary system. Snowflakes are not biologically engineered, the snowflake mentality has been created by snowflake leaders and educators.

    Changing the age limit to buy a gun won't prevent any further crime. A criminal, by definition, is one who fails to obey the laws of the land. Why would a criminal wait until age 21 to get a gun? A mentally ill person also does not have good judgement and also will fail to adhere to civil laws.

    New laws really never help to reduce crime and immorality. History tells us that. If you want to verify that then have a look at the Puritan's crazy laws. Laws are an index of what immoral things were being done at that time in history. And those same immoral things are still being done today tenfold.

    The mentally unstable person, the criminal or the immoral will never be regulated by laws. They are each driven and motivated by insanities which prevent them from differentiating between "right and wrong".

    Stricter gun regulation will only serve to broaden the gun black markets.
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    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    I am sorry, but laws and punishment without a doubt help deterrent crime; it is a tried and proven method that we have used for thousands of years. Not only do laws serve as a barrier to criminals, but they also give our law enforcement and our citizens more authority to act. Also it is just the morally responsible thing to do as a society; we should only be selling guns to people who are fit for gun ownership, otherwise we are very much part of the problem.
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    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    The whole notion that such laws would not change anything is a false narrative pumped out by the NRA so they can maximize their profits. I mean let's apply that same argument to rape and make rape legal, because they are going to do it anyways, right? If we can't stop it 100% of the time, then we should not try at all, right? That's the message being sent, and meanwhile the US has far more mass shootings than any other nation, but let's sit on our hands and doing nothing, I am sure that will fix the problem. We can justify ourselves by talking about "kids these days" without actually doing anything.
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    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    I think as citizens what we need to do, is when we go to the voting poll we need to leave party preference at the door, and vote for representatives that are not afraid to stand up to the NRA. This is just a recurring nightmare, that happens over and over, and each time the NRA jumps in to muddy the waters and no progress is made.
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    Elite Member TonyT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyboycool View Post
    The whole notion that such laws would not change anything is a false narrative pumped out by the NRA so they can maximize their profits. I mean let's apply that same argument to rape and make rape legal, because they are going to do it anyways, right? If we can't stop it 100% of the time, then we should not try at all, right? That's the message being sent, and meanwhile the US has far more mass shootings than any other nation, but let's sit on our hands and doing nothing, I am sure that will fix the problem. We can justify ourselves by talking about "kids these days" without actually doing anything.
    Comparing apples and oranges doesn't work.
    Rape is a crime. It is a prohibited act, something one does.
    Murder is a crime. It is already illegal to murder.
    If there were no laws regarding murder the murder rate would not climb.
    People don't murder because there are laws against it, people murder because they have some insanity.
    People don't rape because of laws agains it, they rape because of their insanities.

    Guns don't commit crimes. People commit crimes.

    I don't get my data from the NRA. Odds are you don't really know what the NRA is and get your data about the NRA from news outlets. The NRA does not profit from anything, it does not produce anything for sale. I am not an NRA member either.

    I am not saying we should do nothing about mass shootings. I am saying we should do something about that problem. The first step is to identify the cause of the problem. The cause is not guns. Inanimate objects don't cause things. More people die every day in the USA from texting while driving accidents than die from people shooting guns at other people. Smart phones are not the cause. Cars are not the cause. People who text while driving are the cause. Thus many states and localities have enacted laws re texting and driving, but the accident rates keep climbing because (1) people ignore the laws and (2) then number of people with phones who drive increases exponentially.

    Oh, and per-capita, the US does not have more shootings than any other nation.

    I am all for mandatory training for gun owners. And I firmly think that in order to purchase a gun one must meet a minimum IQ standard of at least 125-135.
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    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyT View Post
    Comparing apples and oranges doesn't work.
    Rape is a crime. It is a prohibited act, something one does.
    Murder is a crime. It is already illegal to murder.
    If there were no laws regarding murder the murder rate would not climb.
    People don't murder because there are laws against it, people murder because they have some insanity.
    People don't rape because of laws agains it, they rape because of their insanities.

    Guns don't commit crimes. People commit crimes.

    I don't get my data from the NRA. Odds are you don't really know what the NRA is and get your data about the NRA from news outlets. The NRA does not profit from anything, it does not produce anything for sale. I am not an NRA member either.

    I am not saying we should do nothing about mass shootings. I am saying we should do something about that problem. The first step is to identify the cause of the problem. The cause is not guns. Inanimate objects don't cause things. More people die every day in the USA from texting while driving accidents than die from people shooting guns at other people. Smart phones are not the cause. Cars are not the cause. People who text while driving are the cause. Thus many states and localities have enacted laws re texting and driving, but the accident rates keep climbing because (1) people ignore the laws and (2) then number of people with phones who drive increases exponentially.

    Oh, and per-capita, the US does not have more shootings than any other nation.

    I am all for mandatory training for gun owners. And I firmly think that in order to purchase a gun one must meet a minimum IQ standard of at least 125-135.
    They NRA definitely makes money from gun ownership in this country (hundreds of millions of dollars a year, that is no big secret), maybe not by direct sales (which I never suggested it did) but the more people it can get interested in guns the more money they make. The more money it makes the more money it can use to buy politicians and lobby Congress. The more money the NRA makes the more money their associates make. I didn't really think I needed to explain how that works, but that is the reason they oppose raising the age limit, as it means less people buying guns. I mean just watch some NRA T.V. it is mostly non-stop infomercials, all targeted at gun ownership and related paraphernalia. They are sell, sell, selling anything and everything related to guns. And because of the fact that you didn't know that, then I think perhaps, TonyT, the odds are more likely that it is you who needs to pay more attention to what the NRA does.

    If there were no laws regarding murder the murder rate would not climb.
    Ya, that is just total nonsense, and I think you need to go read some history books. Try going back to when people were lynching blacks and dragging gays behind their trucks with little to no legal consequence. The fact that you would even suggest that clearly demonstrates how disconnected you really are.

    People don't rape because of laws agains it, they rape because of their insanities.
    I never suggested people rape because there are laws against it. You need to slow down there, bud.

    Guns don't commit crimes. People commit crimes.
    Obviously and I never disagreed with that straw-man. Guns are inanimate objects, and a nut job teen with an AR-15 and a bump stock can kill a lot more people than one with a hunting rifle. We are basically throwing gasoline on a fire that is already out of control.


    Oh, and per-capita, the US does not have more shootings than any other nation.
    The US is less than 5% of the world population and yet has 31% of the world's mass shooters and there is a noticeable statistical relationship to gun ownership per-capita and mass shootings in a nation. Disagreeing on how to solve the issue and pretending it does not exist are two very different things; this is a real problem, TonyT, that we as a society need to address. It has been swept under the rug far too many times, and we need to send the message to our leaders they better do something, because the nothing they have been doing is not fixing the problem.
    Last edited by jeremyboycool; 03-13-18 at 07:02 PM.
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    Elite Member TonyT's Avatar
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    Ya, that is just total nonsense, and I think you need to go read some history books. Try going back to when people were lynching blacks and dragging gays behind their trucks with little to no legal consequence. The fact that you would even suggest that clearly demonstrates how disconnected you really are.
    The laws re murder did exist then, as they have for thousands of years.
    The laws were not enforced in those areas where the crimes you reference were committed.
    Big difference between a law and the enforcement of that law.
    It was not legal to lynch folks (murder), it never was. That the victims were black or gay was overlooked by law enforcement and/or condoned.
    For a long time, there have been only 2 distinct circumstances where is has been legal to take another life: war and self-defense.
    I reiterate, a law will not prevent the criminal from committing a crime. The criminal disregards laws.

    What must be realized is that the commission of a crime is not what determines that a person is a criminal. The person becomes a criminal prior to the commission of the crime and then acts out his insanity. Conspiring with oneself or with others always precedes the commission of a criminal act. Conspiracy is the first crime in the chain of events.

    The subject of criminality can be difficult to comprehend because all criminality is irrational. And when one tries to apply rational logic to an irrational subject, in an effort to curb further irrationality, one ends up with more irrationality. All major media are pawns to those who profit from irrationality, both the left and the right. And what gets promoted by the media is "environmental dangers". And the media are not interested in any solutions, they are interested in more danger and controversy. Politicians are not interested in solutions either, they are more interested in securing their next terms.

    Thus, solving the problem of mass shootings will not occur until the exact causes become known more broadly, and the existing "authorities" on the subject get their blindness remedied.
    Last edited by TonyT; 03-13-18 at 09:06 PM.
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    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyT View Post
    The laws re murder did exist then, as they have for thousands of years.
    The laws were not enforced in those areas where the crimes you reference were committed.
    Big difference between a law and the enforcement of that law.
    It was not legal to lynch folks (murder), it never was. That the victims were black or gay was overlooked by law enforcement and/or condoned.
    For a long time, there have been only 2 distinct circumstances where is has been legal to take another life: war and self-defense.
    I reiterate, a law will not prevent the criminal from committing a crime. The criminal disregards laws.

    What must be realized is that the commission of a crime is not what determines that a person is a criminal. The person becomes a criminal prior to the commission of the crime and then acts out his insanity. Conspiring with oneself or with others always precedes the commission of a criminal act. Conspiracy is the first crime in the chain of events.

    TonyT, in our past it has at one time or another been legal to kill slaves, Native Americans and/or gays. I am getting the impression here that you don't know your US history very well. At any rate your amendment here is moot, as nobody is suggesting we pass a law and not enforce it. In fact I already mentioned passing such laws would empower our officers.
    Last edited by jeremyboycool; 03-13-18 at 09:40 PM.
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    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyT View Post
    The laws re murder did exist then, as they have for thousands of years.
    The laws were not enforced in those areas where the crimes you reference were committed.
    Big difference between a law and the enforcement of that law.
    It was not legal to lynch folks (murder), it never was. That the victims were black or gay was overlooked by law enforcement and/or condoned.
    For a long time, there have been only 2 distinct circumstances where is has been legal to take another life: war and self-defense.
    I reiterate, a law will not prevent the criminal from committing a crime. The criminal disregards laws.

    What must be realized is that the commission of a crime is not what determines that a person is a criminal. The person becomes a criminal prior to the commission of the crime and then acts out his insanity. Conspiring with oneself or with others always precedes the commission of a criminal act. Conspiracy is the first crime in the chain of events.

    The subject of criminality can be difficult to comprehend because all criminality is irrational. And when one tries to apply rational logic to an irrational subject, in an effort to curb further irrationality, one ends up with more irrationality. All major media are pawns to those who profit from irrationality, both the left and the right. And what gets promoted by the media is "environmental dangers". And the media are not interested in any solutions, they are interested in more danger and controversy. Politicians are not interested in solutions either, they are more interested in securing their next terms.

    Thus, solving the problem of mass shootings will not occur until the exact causes become known more broadly, and the existing "authorities" on the subject get their blindness remedied.
    Responding to your edit.

    I have no idea who you consider to be the "authorities" and have only expressed my personal views here. We know that the human brain is not fully mature until the mid 20's, this is not a matter of opinion, it is biology, and I have never supported giving guns to kids.
    Last edited by jeremyboycool; 03-13-18 at 09:54 PM.
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    Administrator Philip's Avatar
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    There were fewer laws, and fewer mass-shootings 100 years ago, there are countries like Switzerland where every adult male has a weapon at their home, yet mass shootings are extremely rare.

    I tend to agree with Tony that just passing more gun-control laws will not address the real issue of preventing irrational people from committing crimes, and I agree with Jeremy that access to assault weapons facilitates acting on their insanity.

    I don't think the NRA is harmless, they are a very strong lobbying group that has real influence on policy/current law. While we're on the subject of new laws, I am all for outlawing lobbying all together - money shouldn't buy political influence.

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    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    I am not convinced that all these youths were so far gone they were out of reach, and I have to wonder if their lives would have unraveled differently had they had time to mature more before gaining access to the responsibility of gun ownership. Although, one of the major factors also has to be the type of weaponry out there on the market, we need to pull that back a bit.
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    Elite Member TonyT's Avatar
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    I have no idea who you consider to be the "authorities" and have only expressed my personal views here. We know that the human brain is not fully mature until the mid 20's, this is not a matter of opinion, it is biology, and I have never supported giving guns to kids
    .
    Well, by authorities, I mean the neuroscientists such as those that say the brain doesn't mature until 20-25, or even 30. These birds don't know what they are talking about. They have theories but have no actual proof of concept other than the authoritative textbooks that describe the purposes of individual sections of the brain. There's much debate amongst scientists and medicos re brain theories, brain-disease models, etc. The plain truth is they don't know with any certainty. Their textbooks state as much.

    Age is not as much a factor as we are led to believe. I know of many youth who are very competent at handling guns, because they were educated properly in gun safety, use and handling. And I believe education is the key to gun control.

    Education comes in all forms: observation, books, actual training, the media, authorities, classes, tv, movies, etc. People form opinions based on the data they have acquired through education. To form an opinion based solely upon what the media says or upon word of mouth is dangerous. To form opinions based on Hollywood is more dangerous!

    The public at large has been educated into believing that an AR15 is an assault rifle because it looks like a real assault rifle. And it does look threatening! But it cannot shoot any faster than any magazine-hunting rifle. It can only shoot as fast as one can pull the trigger. It is not an automatic weapon. It is semi-automatic, meaning the expired cartridge is expelled and a new one sprung into the firing chamber, just like a semi-automatic pistol.

    Held up to one's face, a bb gun is just as threatening as an AR15. It makes no difference at that point, the adrenaline pumps fast and fear takes over. (I've had a loaded shotgun in my face)

    Back to the topic: Raising the age for gun ownership won't solve the problem of mass shootings. Making it harder for people to acquire guns such as an AR15 won't solve the problem either. An intermediary step would be to require mandatory gun education and gun safety classes for ALL gun purchases. Not a namby-pamby class either, but a hands on type of class with adequate theory and practical training that weeds out the low IQ and semi-literate folks, and makes any person who on mental health medication ineligible, or has a history of mental health treatments of any kind. That is the difficult part due to HIPPA laws, but that law can be modified to partner with gun ownership laws. We'd just have to keep the wacky ACLU at bay!

    For example, today, one must have certification to operate any motorized watercraft. This came about mainly because of ski-doo rental operations where accident rates climbed and insurance companies lobbied to get requirements made into law. Accident rates did decline as a result, mainly because the incompetent people failed to pass certification. But IMHO the certifications are not strict enough. One can do the course online with a manual at hand and get certified. And in my experience as a boater I've observed that very few people follow the rules-of-the sea anyway.

    The other hurdle to face re changing gun ownership laws is that it would have to be done state by state. It cannot be done by federal decree and will never be done on a federal level due to cultural differences state to state. If I lived in an area where black bears were abundant then I would want a semi-automatic large caliber rifle at hand when hiking or going for walks or even gardening. I've encountered them before when camping many years ago and luckily I had 2 dogs to chase them off.
    No one has any right to force data on you
    and command you to believe it or else.
    If it is not true for you, it isn't true.

    LRH

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