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Thread: America's College Promise proposal

  1. #41
    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyboycool View Post
    I think you may be hyperbolizing a bit. As a current student of a community college working on a transfer degree to a four year university and a holder of a GED I can say they are not equivalent. Maybe 40 or 50 years ago when community colleges where severely underfunded that may have been closer to the mark.
    Wasn't 40 or 50 years ago....I'm not even 50 years old yet. I had gone to some classes at one (from prior employer) AFTER I graduated from University of Connecticut. Also I suppose I'm biased a bit because I grew up in a more affluent area where the public schools were rather higher rated, and I went to a private college prep high school in addition to that. Then I went to these classes at the community college...and laughed at the courses....they seemed down to junior high school level.

    So my expectations of education based on my growing up are quite high. Followed by experiences in parenting (helping the kids do their homework) in current times.
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  2. #42
    Assistant Admin Ken's Avatar
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    You asked for thoughts on this...

    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyboycool View Post
    Ok I am going to post my pro article before I submit it. This is a rough draft so there may be grammatical errors ( I am too tired and hungry to check atm.) Appreciate any thoughts shared.

    In 2012 71% of graduating four years students have loan debt.

    The other 29% must have came from free scholarships as students graduating typically have not established jobs yet. One would expect that they would have debt...


    The average debt of student loan for graduating seniors in 2012 rose to 29,400. That is a 25% increase from 2008.

    Have you ever priced tools, equipment, vehicles and such, that many must buy to get a job? (A job above minimum wage which is what a college graduate would be going for...) I won't get into the costs of starting a business... I also would believe that as time goes by and population increases, more people are enrolling into college, so more teachers, materials, buildings, technology, etc., would be needed and would need to be paid for... How does that increase look when compared to different time frames, i.e. 10 years, 20 years, 30 years ago and how does it relate to inflation/cost of living increases?


    It is estimated that by 2020 35% of jobs will require at lead a bachelor’s degree and 30% will need some college or an associate’s degree.
    I call bull$hit on those "estimated" stats, enough said...


    To help meet this rising trends President Obama has purposed a plan to give tuition free community college for dedicated students for the first two years. An estimated 9 million students could benefit from this. And a full-time community college student could save a predicted 3,800 per year.

    Dedicated students? How about some details on what "dedicated students" means? Should a D student that has done the minimum to graduate high school, qualify? Will the C & D students have the aptitude and desire/motivation to use this "free" education to better themselves and justify the cost to taxpayers?
    Your numbers don't quite line up, if a 2 year degree costs $7600 ($3800 x 2) and a 4 year degree costs $29,400, that leaves a difference of $21,800 for the extra 2 years...
    What about trying to lower the cost of the 2 extra years instead? It would at least give some credence to students that have proven they will stick with it instead of kids that are clueless fresh out of high school...



    There is a growing need to reduce student debt as it climbs higher and higher, but the main concern of the purposed plan is the cost.

    How about forcing these people with student debts to...pay for their debts with all of the money they will make because they have that degree? Perhaps the IRS should start hitting their income tax returns like they do for others, perhaps it should greatly affect their credit score so they will have a good reason to pay it. Or perhaps college degrees don't guarantee that a person will make much more than minimum wage...


    The cost of which was included in the president’s 2015 purposed budget presented to the congress. While we have to wait to see how it will impact the budget we can take a look at the impact more opportunities for college degrees creates for aspiring Americans.

    According to National Center for Education Statistics in 2013 unemployment rate for young adults was 29.25 for those that did not finish high school. 17.5 for those whose highest education is high school. 12.2% for those that had some college and 7 for those with at least a bachelor’s degree. In 2012 the median earnings of young adults with a bachelor’s degree was $46,900. $30,000 for those with no education higher than high school and only 22,900 for those without high school credentials.

    What that does not disclose is the fact that MANY young people do not want to work. As an employer, I see this everyday. They will apply for jobs so they can continue getting aid, when their time expires, they will get a job and do poorly on it by constantly using their phone for socializing and personal needs, show up late, request to leave early...and this is while they are on a probationary period. They will try to keep the job just long enough so they can get more unemployment benefits. I personally know some 20 year old, healthy young men that get food stamps...

    Also not considered is that a 4 year degree makes a person...4 years older... Better numbers would be comparing 20 year old associate degrees to 20 year olds and 22 year old bachelor degrees to 22 year olds, keep it apples to apples... A 22 year old typically would be more mature that an 18 or 20 YO... And would have used up some of their "I just finished school and need more time" excuses. So another valid comparison would be 18 year old HS grad to a 20 and 22 year old college grad, to see how long it is typically taking to find a job...

    Ones that do not finish high school should not even be used in these comparisons...meaningless for this study as it has nothing to do with college and they will be a burden on society anyway...
    So you are talking a 5% difference in unemployment between a HS and "some" college (whatever that means), and 10% between HS and a 4 year college grad, does this take into account that MANY more people will graduate HS than college? Again, skewed stats... While they may work in a classroom environment, they don't in real life...

    7% unemployment for someone that has spent 4 years in college is very high when you think about it, why?



    If we look at MIT’s Living Wage Calculation for our Flathead County (livingwage.mit.edu) we can see how much it cost to raise a family here. To cover common monthly expense one adult with one child would need to earn an annual income after taxes of $31,140. That means to stay above a poverty wage a single adult supporting one child needs to earn $17.16 per hours with a full-time job. A household with 2 adults and one child needs an annual income of $27,756 after taxes or a wage of $15.29. We can see that those with only one child to feed will have a hard time getting by with only a high school degree.

    Something is not right with these stats. 2 adults, 1 child - $27,756 year vs. 1 adult 1 child - $31,140... So it is >$3300 cheaper for 2 adults to live? You might want to recheck those numbers...
    And put against your previous numbers $30,000 for HS grad, the solution that would seem best is to use birth control as 1 adult 1 child needs $31,140 or a deficit of $1,140 for a single parent with child, which will undoubtedly be receiving federal aid so add that in... Self responsibility would solve these problems quick and easy, give out free condoms...



    While tuition free community college could cause an increase in state and federal expenses, the pay out to the students (the new moms and dads of the United States) is substantial. Even just two years of college would create more job opportunities and higher wages in an economy with rising student debt and cost of living.
    Jeremy, I'm not trying to be hard on you, you asked for opinions and I am being truthful. I am not a professor nor teacher, however this article of yours helps prove my points. On a HS level, I would give this a B, as for a college student... WOW... at least you took the time to type it, even if you were tired and hungry...
    This looks like something a school kid would throw together the night before it is due... Not a lot of thought, sustainable facts, references, information... enough said... Sorry, however it doesn't impress me, not from a college student... Good Luck!

  3. #43
    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    Also I agree with Kens point of todays kids being so "entitled" and lazy.

    If a student is paying for their education...they're more likely to study and work hard and do well in school, actually attend classes and do homework and study and be aware of their grades and work hard.

    If mommy and daddy are footing the bill...in general some kids will slack off more.

    If the tax payers are footing the bill...LMAO....guess where I'm going with this...

    It is true about a rising % of incoming workers in the workforce are so much more "entitled". Working hard, working to earn merit raises, not abusing sick days, not wimping out to go to work at the first snowflake that hits the ground, expecting full lunch breaks, expecting raises equal to those who work hard and have earned merit raises....it's such a sad trend to see on the rise.
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  4. #44
    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    You asked for thoughts on this...
    Jeremy, I'm not trying to be hard on you, you asked for opinions and I am being truthful. I am not a professor nor teacher, however this article of yours helps prove my points. On a HS level, I would give this a B, as for a college student... WOW... at least you took the time to type it, even if you were tired and hungry...
    This looks like something a school kid would throw together the night before it is due... Not a lot of thought, sustainable facts, references, information... enough said... Sorry, however it doesn't impress me, not from a college student... Good Luck!
    You misunderstand the nature of the article. This is not a research paper. It is not for a class or a grade. It is half of a short opposing article for the student newspaper. It is meant to be short and bias. If you would like to see one of my actual undergraduate research papers from last semesters I would happy to send it to you. I think it had 16 different creditable references. Which included three live interviews with experienced professional in the related field.

    If you are seriously going to take this short piece here to vindicate some preconceived notions about the state of current college education than I have to question the value of your input, Ken. But, let’s take a look at what you got here.

    "The other 29% must have came from free scholarships as students graduating typically have not established jobs yet. One would expect that they would have debt...

    Simply because it says 71% of A that does not mean there is necessarily a 29% of B. There could be only 2% of B and 27% of C or 15% of B, 5% of C and 9% of D.
    Many students both go to school and work; paying for their education as much as they can. Some are lucky enough to still be able to live at home where the parents can help cut the cost of living; saved money they can put towards paying tuition. Some sell their belongings and they empty their savings. Some students get funding from family.

    And there is also work study funds; the reason I write these little articles for the school newspaper is because they pay me. You are right that if I turned this for a grade on an actual research paper I would fail horribly, but since the student newspaper is ran by a bunch of students who don't have a lot of spare time the standards are not very high. We are paid for four hours of work on each article; even though, with interviews and revisions they take longer than four hours.

    "Have you ever priced tools, equipment, vehicles and such, that many must buy to get a job? (A job above minimum wage which is what a college graduate would be going for...) I won't get into the costs of starting a business... I also would believe that as time goes by and population increases, more people are enrolling into college, so more teachers, material, buildings, etc., would be needed and would need to be paid for... How does that increase look when compared to different timeframes, i.e. 10 years, 20 years, 30 years ago and how does it relate to inflation/cost of living increases? "

    I would also assumed a correlation between the rise of student loans and a rising cost of college. What happens when the cost of college outweighs the benefit of college? If we don't do something to alleviate cost that is a potential outcome.

    “Dedicated students? How about some details on what "dedicated students" means? Should a D student that has done the minimum to graduate high school, qualify? Will the C & D students have the aptitude and desire/motivation to use this "free" education to better themselves and justify the cost to taxpayers?
    Your numbers don't quite line up, if a 2 year degree costs $7600 ($3800 x 2) and a 4 year degree costs $29,400, that leaves a difference of $21,800 for the extra 2 years...
    What about trying to lower the cost of the 2 extra years instead? It would at least give some credence to students that have proven they will stick with it instead of people that are clueless fresh out of high school...”


    Dedicated is my own terminology. The plan requires the student to keep a 2.5 GPA. Which I personally feel is a bit low. I think a 3.5 should be closer to the mark. I even feel that having students compete academically for a limited available seats may not be a bad idea. But as I have said a number of times, this particular article is supposed to carry a hint of bias. So I omitted that point and I am trusting the other reporter to address it.

    “I call bull$hit on those "estimated" stats, enough said...”


    I don’t really care if you call BS. Provide criticism of the source (whitehouse.gov), an opposing argument, opposing data or it really is “enough said”.

    “How about forcing these people with student debts to...pay for their debts with all of the money they will make because they have that degree? Perhaps the IRS should start hitting their income tax returns like they do for others, perhaps it should greatly affect their credit score so they will have a good reason to pay it.”

    I have actually done a bit of reading, in the past, on student loans and from what I read repayment is pretty much inescapable short of leaving the country and defaulting can have some harsh consequences. Generally even after declaring bankruptcy you still have to repay student loans. Can you provide some opposing data showing otherwise?

    “Or perhaps college degrees don't guarantee that a person will make much more than minimum wage...”


    College degrees don’t guarantee anything. They create opportunities that may have not been there before. In my chosen field of study they pretty much said you will not making a living writing books. Good thing for me I have other skills to fall back on, if things don’t pan out.

    “What that does not disclose is the fact that MANY young people do not want to work. As an employer, I see this everyday. They will apply for jobs so they can continue getting aid, when their time expires, they will get a job and do poorly on it by constantly using their phone for socializing and personal needs, show up late, request to leave early...and this is while they are on a probationary period. They will try to keep the job just long enough so they can get more unemployment benefits. I personally know some 20 year old, healthy young men that get food stamps...”

    I believe those stats are about unemployment rate and not necessarily who is collecting unemployment. But regardless they still show a positive correlation between having a job and having an education. Bottom line is education creates more employment opportunities. In fact some employers will not even look at you unless you have at least a 2 year degree.

    “Ones that do not finish high school should not even be used in these comparisons...meaningless for this study as it has nothing to do with college and they will be a burden on society anyway...”

    I did not graduate high school. Are you then calling me a burden on society? Do you envision that I live off government aid? Or do you envision someone who got their first job (with the Forest Service cleaning outhouses and campgrounds) at age 14 and had to walk two hours to get to work and two hours to get home five days of the week? Is that a lazy youth? Not to mention at the time my family was building a house, so I was coming home to clearing logs, digging and whatnot. I had a job every summer break and I moved out of my parents’ house at 18 years old. Got my first job as an adult and have been working ever since. I have a solid work history that I can use to get a job just about anywhere. Ken, I would match my work ethics with any person here.

    “Something is not right with these stats. 2 adults, 1 child - $27,756 year vs. 1 adult 1 child - $31,140... So it is >$3300 cheaper for 2 adults to live? You might want to recheck those numbers...”

    They are calculating the average cost of daycare for a single parent.

    “And put against your previous numbers $30,000 for HS grad, the solution that would seem best is to use birth control as 1 adult 1 child needs $31,140 or a deficit of $1,140 for a single parent with child, which will undoubtedly be receiving federal aid so add that in... Self responsibility would solve these problems quick and easy, give out free condoms...”

    I agree. Less unprepared parents would also lessen welfare cost and we could then use that money for education.
    Last edited by jeremyboycool; 02-05-15 at 04:01 PM.
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  5. #45
    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    I have, although I wouldn't use terrorizing. Deserving, expecting, freeloading off of society, burden on society, thoughtless, brain-dead, lazy, mental zombies and such do come to mind... If one hasn't, they most likely have been living under a rock, in a remote area or living in fantasy.
    Have you ever interviewed people for jobs?



    You are correct in your statement, It does not make them "unable" to clean a toilet, however it does make them feel they are too good to clean a toilet... And as I said before, the estimated 35% of our workforce in 5 years will need a 4 year degree, that you stated, is complete bull$hit...


    Jeremy, some questions for you, if you don't mind, not picking on you, merely curious...
    You are a middle aged (36 years old) college student, aren't you?
    You live in one of the least populated states, how much travel have you done to larger metropolitan areas?
    If you have traveled, how much time have you spent there?
    How many businesses do you own, have you owned?
    How many employees do you have?
    How many people work/have worked under your supervision?
    What type of work experience do you have?
    Once you get your degree, what type of work do you expect to find?
    Do you feel that you will/should be able to start out at $50,000 or so per year?
    What if you can't find a fitting job in your area, will you relocate?
    Ken, do you know what an appeal for authority and ad hominem is?
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  6. #46
    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YeOldeStonecat View Post
    Wasn't 40 or 50 years ago....I'm not even 50 years old yet. I had gone to some classes at one (from prior employer) AFTER I graduated from University of Connecticut. Also I suppose I'm biased a bit because I grew up in a more affluent area where the public schools were rather higher rated, and I went to a private college prep high school in addition to that. Then I went to these classes at the community college...and laughed at the courses....they seemed down to junior high school level.

    So my expectations of education based on my growing up are quite high. Followed by experiences in parenting (helping the kids do their homework) in current times.
    Did you try to test out of the course? I have skipped a couple of basic courses here by just testing out of them. I suppose it could be different from state to state, but here, at FVCC, they want to offer courses that are in line with the universities and provide opportunities for adult "reeducation". So they do have some very basic classes.

    Personally, I have always held that while some schools can offer more resources, students will get out of their education what they put into it. I have knowledgeable professors to ask questions and discus topics with, a school library, research databases, and a number of other resources. Whatever the classroom is teaching I am walking away with a better understanding and education, because I will make it happen. I also believe people should also be educating themselves even when they are not in school. Ever since leaving high school I have made it part of my normal life to always be self-educating myself. A person should always be learning something new.
    Last edited by jeremyboycool; 02-05-15 at 05:34 PM.
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  7. #47
    SG Enthusiast cybotron r_9's Avatar
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    Interesting info on Student loan nonrepayments

    http://www.edcentral.org/student-loa...ayment-puzzle/

  8. #48
    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cybotron r_9 View Post
    Interesting info on Student loan nonrepayments

    http://www.edcentral.org/student-loa...ayment-puzzle/
    Would be good info for my opposition.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Stephen Hawking

  9. #49
    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Form Cybotron R_9's link,

    I find these interesting.

    "40% of borrowers have balances less than $10,000"

    "In the public debate over the issue of student loan
    debt, it is sometimes implied that large debt burdens
    necessarily lead to financial hardship. However, the reality is that large debts are often taken on by individuals
    who ultimately receive high earnings."

    "Brookings Institution’s Beth Akers shows that delinquency is most frequent when borrowers owe less than $100 a month, and as the amount approaches $0, the tendency for the borrower to make a late payment increases."
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Stephen Hawking

  10. #50
    Elite Member TonyT's Avatar
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    An education does not suddenly make a person unable to clean a toilet. It makes them more qualified to do more jobs creating more employment opportunities for them.
    begin rant:

    That's not entirely true today. It may have been true up until about 1970, but not today.

    An education today does not make one more qualified to do more jobs UNLESS that education is in a specialized field, in which case the person may be more qualified than others with less education in that same field.

    By and large, today's edu system does not educate in the direction of application of what is learned. It's based more on the ability to remember data and the ability to answer questions about that data. Multiple choice tests and "complete the sentence" tests do not test one's ability apply what one has learned. Competence can be tested, but the system today is not concerned with competence, it's concerned with economic, politics and psycho-babble ideas put forth in the humanities.

    The US edu standards have declined to the point of "graduate him or else". This philosophy has hurt us. I know college graduates who cannot sort a filing cabinet alphabetically. Incompetent drivers cause accidents. (I'll bet 3 in 10 at best knows the definition of YIELD as it's used on traffic signs).

    As a home improvement contractor I see all sorts of college educated people. I made 75 bucks earlier this week by stopping at a woman's home and changing a light bulb because she said, "My light does not work anymore." I was taught how to change a bulb in grammar school in 1964 when I was 8 years old. When I was 12 I knew what parallel and series circuits are. We did not use calculators, we were taught how to do arithmetic. Go to any store today and notice that clerks have become dependent upon the registers to calculate correct change. I can still calculate faster than they can with their registers.

    If I had to hire someone today and the choice was between the college graduate and the guy who worked the last 4 years, I'd choose the guy with the work experience.

    A college graduate who has not gone on to pursue further education in a profession or specialized field has wasted his money and time. That tells me that he/she has no clue as to their purpose in life and is in doubt about many other things, a sheep, herded by guidance counselors, who themselves are a product of our ****ed up edu system. One should not attend college unless one knows where one is headed. One should not go to college "to find out what one should be."

    To many people today approach life backwards. They think they cannot BE and DO unless they HAVE. That's backwards and worse, lazy. They think they cannot be somebody, get and do a good job unless they have a college education. It's very easy to see someone who has it backwards. Ask 'em to perform a task such as "wash your car" and they will come up with a multitude of reasons why it cannot be done, usually stating something like "first I need to get car-wash detergent" or "I don't have a decent sponge".

    The correct sequence is BE a car washer. Put on that hat. Then DO it, wash the car making do with what's at hand. Then you HAVE a clean car and satisfaction of a job well done. Happiness does not come from a clean car. It comes when cleaning the car. Point being, the purpose of education is not the monetary rewards, it is competence and aptitude.
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  11. #51
    R.I.P. Nov 2015 RaisinCain's Avatar
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    Nah. The education system in the world, as a whole, is crap.

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    SG Enthusiast Easto's Avatar
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    Jeremy,

    Where I work we have the need for a lot of temp labor. It is a warehouse where trucks and ocean containers are loaded and unloaded. Pallets need to be built, shrink wrapped, labeled and secured with banding. The work is not unreasonably hard and I would believe that any fit young man under 40 could handle the 8 hours. To give you a little more background, these temps get a minimum of 4 hours for showing up and many times we will give them as many hours as they want. Mind you, these are people who would appear to be desperate for work. The only way they're able to find employment is through an agency. You would think you would be getting some pretty hungry people.

    2 out of 10 people we get are totally useless. They will quit after 2 hours. They will use excuses that if they don't leave now they will miss their bus or something like that. About 1/2 of them will not continue with their work unless there is some direct supervision. If you leave them alone they will just be standing around. I would say on average we only get about 2 or 3 out of 10 with any acceptable (or above acceptable) work ethic.

  13. #53
    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Let you me tell you what my life experiences have taught me. They have taught me that people generally find what they are looking for whether it is there or not and that one of the most unreliable sources of information out there is personal opinion. My life has taught me to trust the facts over someone's word.

    I am not saying that personal account is without any value, but you need more than that alone.

    Now, Easto, let's just say your numbers are true. Are there any other variables that could be affecting the results? Like maybe the use of an employment agency. Something that may have very low standards for hiring. Therefore everyone with a bad work history, who can't get a job elsewhere, is funneled into your place of business. Making things seem much worst than they really are.

    Maybe youths seem lazy for a different reason. Youths may be less likely to have a work history or an education making it harder for them to get a job. Therefore there is more of them looking for jobs. Meaning that, as such, the employer is likely to see more youths than non-youths. Greater numbers means more lazy youths. But it says nothing at all about the % of lazy youth compared to the % of lazy non-youths.

    You see? I don't know if all the variables are being considered, but I kind of doubt it. I think some of you are just drawing conclusion based off only what is right in front of your face. Which can lead to misconceptions. Youths may very well be a bunch of lazy bums, but I don't think anyone here is in any position of authority to say so and to what degree.
    Last edited by jeremyboycool; 02-06-15 at 04:38 PM.
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    Elite Member TonyT's Avatar
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    Let you me tell you what my life experiences have taught me. They have taught me that people generally find what they are looking for...
    The above contains a philosophical truth. People always get what they want and wish for. More often than not though, they are blind to their own wants and wishes.

    For example, one sees a gal he really likes and thinks, "I want someone like her." Then, shortly after he thinks, "I could never get a gal like that." Or a buddy says to him, "She's out of your league", and he goes into agreement with that statement. And his "wish" comes true, he never meets the girl he wants.

    The opposite also holds true. One must continue to encourage oneself toward one's goals else his own defeatist mechanisms will eventually defeat him, or the defeatist mechanisms of others will defeat him.

    This is easily observable in education too. A guidance counselor tells a 13 year old lad that his placement test scores indicate he should seek a life career in a trade such as plumbing or carpentry. Yet the lad has been aspiring toward something science related, maybe has a passion with microscopes or telescopes. He's done for right then and there if he goes into agreement with the counselor. The counselor has been taught that IQ cannot be changed and that aptitude is a fixed quality and so groups the lad with other similar scoring students in classes where he'll never get the opportunity to pursue his wants and wishes. If he tries to assert his desires by disagreeing with the edu authorities he will get penalized somehow, educated in the concept of "don't rock the boat".
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  15. #55
    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyboycool View Post
    Youths may very well be a bunch of lazy bums, but I don't think anyone here is in any position of authority to say so and to what degree.
    I'd say there are many of us here who have managed employees for many years, hired, fired, supervised.
    I bet there are quite a few here who have also seen a few staggered ages of kids go through the school systems from bottom to top...
    ...and who know teachers..and have talked with them, and have seen the pussification of the school system (and of America) over a few decades.
    That whole "everyone is a winner" concept in school athletics/sports now....combined with "leave no child behind" in classes...has contributed to the entitlement attitude that kids develop, which unfortunately they carry into their adult world...sadly, crippling them. Not to mention teachers or school admins now can't even raise their voice to a misbehaving child without fear of losing their job. So kids learn they can act how they want, without consequence...and that sadly gets carried into their adult behavior and entitlement.
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  16. #56
    Elite Member TonyT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YeOldeStonecat View Post
    I'd say there are many of us here who have managed employees for many years, hired, fired, supervised.
    I bet there are quite a few here who have also seen a few staggered ages of kids go through the school systems from bottom to top...
    ...and who know teachers..and have talked with them, and have seen the pussification of the school system (and of America) over a few decades.
    That whole "everyone is a winner" concept in school athletics/sports now....combined with "leave no child behind" in classes...has contributed to the entitlement attitude that kids develop, which unfortunately they carry into their adult world...sadly, crippling them. Not to mention teachers or school admins now can't even raise their voice to a misbehaving child without fear of losing their job. So kids learn they can act how they want, without consequence...and that sadly gets carried into their adult behavior and entitlement.
    Well said.

    I for one, am in that category of people who has seen the decline of our edu system and its effect upon society.

    It's a misnomer that "we are all equal". We are all equal in the eyes of the law is about as far as equality can ever truthfully go. And even that truth gets abused. We are not all equal.

    "Everyone is a winner" and "no child behind" are solutions to purely economical problems faced by public schools. The result is a loss of individuality and rising illiteracy. The dumbing down of America is entirely intentional. It's not accidental.
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  17. #57
    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    I am taking a poetry class this semester. I don't normally write poetry, but I respect the written word. I feel writing is the voice of the soul and any intellectual man or woman will always seek to refine those skills. This thread inspired a poem and so I thought I would post it here.

    A Poem for Grumpy Old Men

    So cozy in your thoughts you are
    Believe your own opinion forged of gold.
    You speak of privileged education pass
    And a rich experience of life
    Is proudly told. So valuable is
    Your insight to doubt would be to sin.
    So powerful your perception;
    How brief your deliberation
    Does come to an end. Truth rides in on wings
    Of your thoughts alone. Breaking through the glass
    Shattering the notions of all those in tow.

    And of these kids today lazy as you say
    With no education in the now that
    Could match that of yesterday and
    I listen to your word as you declare
    The parents are to blame. Then it must
    Be in the manner that you prophesy
    The cause of failings must follow back in time.
    Your wisdom shows the causation
    Surely your noble generation will take fault
    For this mess you left us in this day and age.
    Last edited by jeremyboycool; 02-10-15 at 05:21 PM.
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  18. #58
    ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ downhill's Avatar
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    Decline of our education system? laughs..

    We get what we pay for and since Regan a lot of Americans think we pay to much to schools. That's another can of worms though.
    The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, and prejudices to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejudices can kill and suspicion can destroy and a thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all of its own for the children and the children yet unborn and the pity of it is that these things cannot be confined to the Twilight Zone.

  19. #59
    Advanced Member SlyOneDoofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyboycool View Post
    I am of the same mind set. If we look at US government spending we can see the amount we spend on education is dwarfed by what we spend on pensions, health care and the military. It even looks like we spend more on welfare than education.
    We spend more on education than any other country in the world.

    Yet, out of the top 30 industrialized nations we are ranked 27th. Pathetic.

    It's not a money problem. You could double the money we spend and it wouldn't do a damn thing.

    Get that into your head.

    Edit: This pertains to K-12 Grades.
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  20. #60
    Advanced Member SlyOneDoofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downhill View Post
    Decline of our education system? laughs..

    We get what we pay for and since Regan a lot of Americans think we pay to much to schools. That's another can of worms though.
    We pay too much for the results we get.

    It's like paying $100,000 for a Ford Focus.
    Nutty like squirrel terds!!!

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