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Thread: State your reasons for or against gun control. Be concise, not emotional. Define.

  1. #21
    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlyOneDoofy View Post
    I guess my question would be that if the government came to your door asking for the keys to your truck? What would you do?

    I guess my point is where will it stop? We know assault rifles are a minor cause of deaths compared to handguns. I can see that being the next focus.

    But ultimately, I see this as a way for the government to place a new tax on citizens for guns they already own. Now you will have to register your gun every year like a car and pay a tax.

    I see the agenda of our current government to tax us into submission. Know exactly what we do every day and know what we own.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Oh have you seen the new corvette stingray? I think it looks awesome.
    I'd be pissed...but I'm a law abiding citizen, guess they'd have to take it away. I'm not going to go militant on them.

    Re: the new Stingray...have not seen one in real life...but I saw all the pics on release day. In my opinion...it looks like the kids that did the design work for the Transformers movie did the design of that body...I do not like it. Not my taste. I haven't been a big fan of the 'Vettes since mostly...prior to 73/74 or so.....they got kinda cool in the 2000's and up til a few years ago..but this new one....I can't dig it's looks. Oh I know the performance is insane...sure I'd love to drive one, but my eyes don't dig it.
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  2. #22
    Domesticated Primate Bastid's Avatar
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    against gun control...
    Unconstitutional.
    2nd amendment shall NOT be infringed. what is so hard about that?
    Every normal man must be tempted at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
    I often wonder if the voices in my head ever get frustrated because I'm just too damn lazy to climb that clock tower.
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  3. #23
    Advanced Member SlyOneDoofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YeOldeStonecat View Post
    I'd be pissed...but I'm a law abiding citizen, guess they'd have to take it away. I'm not going to go militant on them.

    Re: the new Stingray...have not seen one in real life...but I saw all the pics on release day. In my opinion...it looks like the kids that did the design work for the Transformers movie did the design of that body...I do not like it. Not my taste. I haven't been a big fan of the 'Vettes since mostly...prior to 73/74 or so.....they got kinda cool in the 2000's and up til a few years ago..but this new one....I can't dig it's looks. Oh I know the performance is insane...sure I'd love to drive one, but my eyes don't dig it.
    I guess my point was when ARE you going to say no. When do you stand up and say no. How far do you let government push you? I do follow the law. But I'd burn the truck before letting them have it.

    I'd rather stand on this issue about assault rifles since (the clinton ban) did nothing and keep some hope that it will stop future government control.

    Would I give up a gun? Only if I though it would endanger my family not too.
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  4. #24
    Second Most EVIL YARDofSTUF's Avatar
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    Off topic: The new Stingray is beautiful, minus the rear end.

  5. #25
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Let's treat the Constitution as if it were a truly sacrosanct document. So it's off the table...never to be altered or changed for any reason.

    Now...how do you fix this problem? To find the root cause, we must first define the problem and I'll say it's a people problem. We can't legislate behavior, only punish consequence.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  6. #26
    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlyOneDoofy View Post
    I guess my point was when ARE you going to say no. When do you stand up and say no. How far do you let government push you? I do follow the law. But I'd burn the truck before letting them have it.
    Hard to say....I'd be screaming "no"...but I'm not going to become a martyr and draw a gun down on them...and end up going to jail or being shot myself. I'm a family man, head of household, have a wife 'n kids to stay home and keep working and care for. What good will I be to them if I'm in jail. Sadly...compliance is the responsible approach.
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  7. #27
    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    The below is a copy/paste from a quote that is making its rounds all around the internet. Dunno if it's a true quote from the quoted source...but what it states rings true in my mind. It's a long read....but worth it, especially the last line...
    **************************
    "The Gun Is Civilization"

    by Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)

    Human beings only have two means to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you must either convince me by reason or force me to do your bidding under threat of harm. Every human interaction, without exception, falls into one of these two categories. Reason or force, that's it.

    In a truly moral and civilized society, people would exclusively interact through reason as force has no place as valid social interaction. But the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as that may sound to some.

    When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a means to negate your threat or employment of force.

    The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a lone guy on equal footing with a carload of drunken guys with baseball bats. The gun removes all disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

    There are plenty of people who consider the gun also to be the source of "bad force." These people think we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because they believe a firearm only makes it easier for an armed mugger to do his job. That, of course, is true only if the mugger's potential victims are disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat. The argument has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed.

    People who argue for the banning of firearms are asking only for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can make a successful living only in a society where the state has granted him a monopoly of force.

    Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would result only in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party that inflicts overwhelming injury on the loser.



    People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones do not constitute lethal force, watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

    The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced by another, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    It removes force from the social equation... and that's why carrying a gun is both a civilized and a civilizing act.

    So, the most civil societies are those where all citizens are equally armed and can be persuaded only through reason, never by force.
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  8. #28
    Elite Member TonyT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JawZ View Post
    Let's treat the Constitution as if it were a truly sacrosanct document. So it's off the table...never to be altered or changed for any reason.

    Now...how do you fix this problem? To find the root cause, we must first define the problem and I'll say it's a people problem. We can't legislate behavior, only punish consequence.
    Yes, it IS a people problem.

    But behavior can and should be legislated when necessary. It becomes necessary to legislate behavior in order to protect or ensure the safety and well being of the majority. For example, laws exist that regulate traffic and criminal codes exist in an attempt to preserve sanity in society.

    The simple truth is that all laws are morals. The basic truth is that a sane man does not need to be governed by morals, a sane man is ethical. Contrary to what the Bibles say, man is basically good, and man's level of ethics can be raised or lowered.

    All criminality is insanity. We all have insanity in one form or another, in varying degrees. Insanity and irrationality are one and the same. Sanity and rationality cannot be increased simply via moral codes. Insanity and irrationality cannot be eradicated with moral codes either.

    If you study history you will see that as every great civilization deteriorated, its laws reflected the amount of insanity in its culture, and those laws became progressively irrational, because the lawmaker's own irrationality entered into the mix. This is happening today as well.

    The problem today is two fold. We have an increasing amount of insanity/irrationality in our society and on the other side we have so called experts in the field of mental health dishing out unusual solutions like heavy drugs & electroshock. The increase of insanity permeating our society is directly proportional to the treatments that are being administered, the treatments themselves are causing insanity.

    Our mental health experts are misguided and don't have workable technology to handle society's problems. They cannot see actual causes and focus solely upon incorrect targets, e.g. if a kid throws a ball at a window and it breaks the glass, they would claim that the ball broke the glass, and upon advising our legislators we would see a new law that regulates types of balls that can be sold at Wall Mart.
    No one has any right to force data on you
    and command you to believe it or else.
    If it is not true for you, it isn't true.

    LRH

  9. #29
    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JawZ View Post
    Let's treat the Constitution as if it were a truly sacrosanct document. So it's off the table...never to be altered or changed for any reason.

    Now...how do you fix this problem? To find the root cause, we must first define the problem and I'll say it's a people problem. We can't legislate behavior, only punish consequence.
    Re: Constitution..that's pretty much the way we need to look at it. While I state that I support the right to bear arms....I am cognizant about the reasons now...present..being different than the original reasons of why the second amendment was penned.

    Yeah some people still have that fear about the gov't knocking down their door....and they stand behind the second amendment for that. By myself...and I'm sure the majority of modern generation gun supporters, use the reasons of "sport", "hunting", and "self defense/home/family defense".

    And I agree..."people problem"....and consequence.
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  10. #30
    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyT View Post
    Our mental health experts are misguided and don't have workable technology to handle society's problems. They cannot see actual causes and focus solely upon incorrect targets, e.g. if a kid throws a ball at a window and it breaks the glass, they would claim that the ball broke the glass, and upon advising our legislators we would see a new law that regulates types of balls that can be sold at Wall Mart.

    Bravo! Good analogy....sad, but true.
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  11. #31
    Advanced Member SlyOneDoofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YeOldeStonecat View Post
    Hard to say....I'd be screaming "no"...but I'm not going to become a martyr and draw a gun down on them...and end up going to jail or being shot myself. I'm a family man, head of household, have a wife 'n kids to stay home and keep working and care for. What good will I be to them if I'm in jail. Sadly...compliance is the responsible approach.
    I agree with you because I'm in the same situation. It sucks. But I'd still burn the truck, lol
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  12. #32
    Second Most EVIL YARDofSTUF's Avatar
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    3D printing is becoming a common thing, and getting pretty advanced.

    So when someone can use one to make their own assault rifle, limiting the sales of those types of guns to people won't make much of a difference.

  13. #33
    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    About 6 months ago someone already did a proof of concept of this. They manufactured some key components of an AR-15 and put the rest of the gun together using an old AR-15....and it shot about a half dozen rounds before a part from the 3D printer broke. This was on the first attempt! So with some learning and making some adjustments and tweaks...and using better stock material for the printer...it'll get done (if not already).



    Quote Originally Posted by YARDofSTUF View Post
    3D printing is becoming a common thing, and getting pretty advanced.

    So when someone can use one to make their own assault rifle, limiting the sales of those types of guns to people won't make much of a difference.
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  14. #34
    R.I.P. 2013-11-22 blebs's Avatar
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    Scalia and crew interpreted the entire amendment wrong. I know it doesn't matter now, but they did. Perhaps to set us up for the precursor that we are going to witness shortly. When we cannot defend ourselves against a tyrannical government. Things that are going on right now are very scary.

    Success is a lousy teacher. It seduces people into thinking they can't lose. -Bill Gates

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