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Thread: State your reasons for or against gun control. Be concise, not emotional. Define.

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    Advanced Member SlyOneDoofy's Avatar
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    State your reasons for or against gun control. Be concise, not emotional. Define.

    Thanks.

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    Elite Member TonyT's Avatar
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    I am against gun control. BTW, all this hype about gun control by the media is just another smoke screen to mask the other laws being pushed by the administration which are aimed at reducing our liberties.

    1. Making it more difficult to obtain a gun will not reduce crimes committed with guns.

    2. Responsible citizens don't commit crimes, only criminals commit crimes.

    3. Criminals don't purchase guns legally.

    4. Restricting guns will only serve to raise the price of illegal guns for criminals, who purchase them with monies gained illegally, which means that they will have to commit more crimes to be able to pay for guns they want.

    5. Statistics prove that there are more deaths per year in the US caused by other weapons, including knives, and even hammers!
    I checked the actual stats at .gov sites and discovered the above sentence to be false. I stand corrected.

    6. All of the nutcases that have committed crimes using guns are already banned from owning a gun, per state and federal laws. Stricter law is not a solution to the problem.

    7. Many more reasons...
    Last edited by TonyT; 01-22-13 at 08:29 AM.
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    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    Following all of what Tony mentioned above.....which I mostly agree with...all except the deaths by knives and hammers are higher than by gun, and the smokescreen thing (it's really the people asking for it).
    I am pro "Second Amendment"...I support the choice to own firearms.
    I actually (live in the state of Connecticut) believe that we already have strict enough rules and regs.

    However, we need to actually enforce those existing laws better, and close the loopholes.

    The recent Sandy Hook school incident which is about 1 hour away from me....that kid had a mental history. Common sense should have prevailed in that household, and the parents should have been..."parenting"..and not had guns in the house of a mental kid. Or at least secure the guns. So the mom enjoyed shooting guns...cool...but she should have secured them. And did she really need an AR-15 unsecured in the home...with her whacked kid? This is probably one area with legislation that I think could be tightened up....allowing gun permits to be given to those that have a whackjob in the house. Start connecting the dots between gun permits and things that should "blip" on the database database.

    The virginia tech incident...that kid also had a history, and something on his record that prevented him from purchasing those weapons in his state. Yet...he intentionally drove to another state and purchased the weapons..knowing those dots wouldn't connect back to his state. He found, and exploited, a loophole in the system.

    The...was it Arizona, that senator lady that got shot in the head? That shooter also had a history..drug abuse and other stuff, he should not have been able to obtain a gun. I think I recall that he got his gun from a gun collectors show, that doesn't do checks.

    This recent family shooting in New Mexico...that was a ticking time bomb waiting to happen. Father was an ex gang member. He supposedly saw the light and converted and became a pastor to minister other gang members and ex inmates..to help them follow the good path. While I applaud those actions...he always had "bad kids" and ex gang members and ex inmates staying at his house, like it was a half way house with a revolving door. In a house that he had a wife and kids in...he was raising a family there. Not a good move IMO...the safety and exposure of his family should have been first and foremost. Not the environment to have your young kids around...IMO. Plus the kid appeared to be some sort of rambo-mercenary wanna-be. Some lightbulbs should have been going off here! The legality of how that gun he used was obtained remains to be seen...but I would wager it was not legal.

    I prefer to maintain my ability to protect my household, my wife and children....and having the choice to escalate the force necessary to do so! I am a firm believer in the Castle Doctrine!
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    Administrator Philip's Avatar
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    I am a gun owner and support the second amendment. I agree with most of what was said above. I'd like to add I am for more robust licensing process that would prevent mental cases with records from access to guns, i.e. checks at gun shows, consolidated database, checks for other types of weapons. As it is, 40% of the guns sold are second-hand, or not directly from dealers, so they just slip through the licensing system and there is definitely some room for improvement. Bans will do nothing.

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    Second Most EVIL YARDofSTUF's Avatar
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    I wouldn't mind a stricter licensing process.

    But even with all these changes being talked about, if the guy walked in to the school with a handgun that had 7 rounds per clip, the teachers and children are still unarmed targets. The problem wasn't the weapon, it was the person.

    Down the road people will be able to make their own guns with 3D printers, pretty good option for the intelligent criminal.

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    SG Enthusiast Easto's Avatar
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    I've never felt threatened enough or have been in fear to the point that I felt I needed a gun.

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    R.I.P. 2013-11-22 blebs's Avatar
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    I can't add much more than what Tony has posted. What is happening is a systematic destruction of our liberties. I stand firm with the constitution and 2nd amendment. I thank the founding fathers for having the knowledge to include such a stipulation. They obviously knew that at some point in time, our government could become corrupted and tyrannical and that the people should be able to protect themselves in that event.
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    SG Enthusiast Leatherneck's Avatar
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    There was much debate between the Federalists & Anti-Federalists about the constitution and bill of rights. In the end even against some desires they knew that the people needed protection against tyranny. This country is awful fat & happy and most would never think the worse of our government but our founding fathers knew what could happen.

    As far as gun control goes, uphold the current laws to the extreme, better background checks to include mental/violence issues.
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    R.I.P. 2013-11-22 blebs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    As far as gun control goes, uphold the current laws to the extreme, better background checks to include mental/violence issues.
    The only problem I have with that is the way the government plans on doing it. They will violate HIPPA, patient/doctor confidentiality and what I more afraid of is, they may even go as far as attaching the label to someone without so much as a blink of an eye. They seem to be really targeting returning vets this way.
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    SG Enthusiast Leatherneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blebs View Post
    The only problem I have with that is the way the government plans on doing it. They will violate HIPPA, patient/doctor confidentiality and what I more afraid of is, they may even go as far as attaching the label to someone without so much as a blink of an eye. They seem to be really targeting returning vets this way.
    True. Our Vets could surely be labeled unstable according to some doctor's opinion. "Have you ever honked at somebody in traffic?" Oh look, he is violent and unstable...
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    ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ downhill's Avatar
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    One of the most right wing Supreme Court justices wrote the majority opinion on the Second Amendment. Guess what?

    He agrees we should have a right to protect ourselves and to be able to hunt. That's hand guns and hunting rifles and shotguns.

    He didn't believe that right extended to weapons used to mass kill ourselves.

    There isn't one reason to allow assault weapons to be sold or clips with 200 rounds in them. If you are such a poor shot that you can't hit the broad side of a barn with 10 rounds, then get a shotgun sawed off to legal limits.

    Anyway you don't have to agree with me or not believe that nut case Scalia would side against the NRA.. you can read it for yourselves.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZO.html

    That said I've always been of the belief that anyone who sells guns anywhere, should be the one responsible for a background check.

    I'd also add one more thing that will certainly raise the hackles of the I WANT MY 200 ROUND CLIP AND MY AR-15 AT NO MATTER THE COST crowd. I think that since they are out there legally now that owners should have to register them and even more outrageous to you, it should cost you to do so every year. Hey..

    By the way I own guns.. I have a cheap 22 my mom left me that I refuse to shoot cuz it's probably too dangerous to do so. A 22 long rifle, a semi auto 12 gauge shot gun that I love and a 270 hunting rifle. I used to belong off and on to the NRA before they became way out of line in helping spread rumors about stupid things like Obama is going to restrict ammunition and such for gain for their biggest supports, the gun and ammunition business and their outlandish positions with way to much influence on the hill.
    The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, and prejudices to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejudices can kill and suspicion can destroy and a thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all of its own for the children and the children yet unborn and the pity of it is that these things cannot be confined to the Twilight Zone.

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    SG Enthusiast Leatherneck's Avatar
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    Unfortunately you can't outlaw evil & stupidity so what is a logical measure to curb gun violence? On one hand we face a threat of being governed as no one might have ever imagined and have brought much of it on ourselves. On the other, where might it stop? Too bad a few bad apples are destroying this country. I could go into moral decay but many just won't have that argument and chalk it up to progress. All I can say that if this society is better than ever then I surely long for the good 'ol days.
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    Advanced Member SlyOneDoofy's Avatar
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    Just some food for thought...

    I listened to a lady talk about what she thought was the biggest issues with gun control in this nation and her opinion opened my eyes a bit to how our society has gone wrong. (forgive me for not know her name).

    She explained that our society doesn't enable men to grow up. There is no "right of passage" with most young men in this nation. We let them stay at home till they are in their 30's playing video games and think that's acceptable. They don't add to society and furthermore, probaly have little self worth. She related that we need to have these young men (and women) become something more than we are letting them be. We need to say "you are now a man and this is what a man does".

    I think the military helps in this regard teaching disipline, respect, and honor. But most of all, I think parenting makes the biggest difference in how an individual views and compares oneself with the rest of the world. My wife asked me one day when a young man helped me in a store why I said thank you sir. I said, he has a job, seems to like it, and works hard. He deserves my respect for being a productive member of society.

    When I grew up my dad let me stay for about a year in his house after high school as long as I was working and going to college. I quit going to college and he said go get your own place and the rent starts here today until you leave. Rent at his house wasn't cheap at home so I moved out. But he also taught me how to work. Showed me VALUE in a hard days work and that I had to work for things because damnit, no one was going to give it to me for free. I think our society lacks that message.

    We have let society slide into this blame game and failed our children in teaching them the things they need to survive and be productive. I think this is why you get these crazy people, with no self worth and no respect for others, using guns (and other things) to kill.

    SO, in my opinion, no more gun control laws are needed. I like hi-cap mags because I can load them at home, go out shooting and not spend the time in the field pushing bullets into mags. Not going to post what I own but it's enough for most people. What I do know is that I have shot and owned guns for a long time and none of them have ever hurt anyone. And I hope that I never have to use one on a person. But, faced with a threat defending my family from an intruder? I want the gun I'm holding to look like a tank and scare them so bad they run off, And honestly, when you defend your family, there will not be a magazine that will hold enough rounds, in my opinion.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Oh...anyone using a hunting arguement regarding the 2nd ammendment needs to remember...it wasn't written with any regard to hunting so leave hunting out of the arguement. Thanks.
    Last edited by SlyOneDoofy; 01-23-13 at 02:28 AM.
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    ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ downhill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlyOneDoofy View Post



    Oh...anyone using a hunting arguement regarding the 2nd ammendment needs to remember...it wasn't written with any regard to hunting so leave hunting out of the arguement. Thanks.

    You ask for opinions...if you don't like what you read, then only ask for opinions that you agree with.


    Again Scalia's already weighed in on this. You have to know his the most right winged judge on the supreme court right? He's also a very good friend of Richard Cheny.. Remember him? The guy who shot one of his good friends in the face while intoxicated?
    The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, and prejudices to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejudices can kill and suspicion can destroy and a thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all of its own for the children and the children yet unborn and the pity of it is that these things cannot be confined to the Twilight Zone.

  15. #15
    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downhill View Post
    There isn't one reason to allow assault weapons to be sold or clips with 200 rounds in them. If you are such a poor shot that you can't hit the broad side of a barn with 10 rounds, then get a shotgun sawed off to legal limits. .
    First..one has to get factual, and not allow the media to sweep you into their emotional agenda. Lets start with the phrase "assault weapon"...it is simply a term that the anti gun people came up with to describe a semi auto rifle that "looked" like a fully automatic assault rifle. Meaning....it shared cosmetic features of many military automatic rifles.

    Funtionality wise...they hardly differ from many simple semi automatic rifles which nobody would look twice at. But if they were painted black, had maybe a folding stock, had maybe a pistol grip, had maybe a muzzle flash suppressor, perhaps a bayonet mount...and the common ground was a easy to swap out magazine....it was suddenly a big scary assault weapon!

    As for 200 round magazines...well, after we're done exaggerating here...we can be safe to say that the common grounds in the debate is a 10, 20, or 30 round 'zine.
    200 round "drums" have not been commonly used in domestic tragedies. I would agree that a 200 round drum is not needed by the citizen and shouldn't be available.

    Functionality wise..and lethality wise, there is no difference between an "assault weapon" and a common semi-automatic hunting rifle. Both will fire once and eject and reload the next round...at each pull of the trigger. An assault weapon like the AR-15 versus a Browning BAR Safari or a Bernelli 1...(both semi auto hunting rifles)....really the difference comes down to looks. And that the AR comes by default with a larger magazine (such as 30 round...but this depends on state law)...and the hunting rifles typically come with 5 round mags BUT you can get larger if your state allows it. So the over hype here is really over magazine capacity. And then there is that "if state law allows it...but then again do you think that the nutjob about to pull off this shooting spree gives a rats arse about any laws? //scratches head

    The perception is....limit the magazine capacity, and you limit the long term lethality of someone pulling off a mass shooting spree.
    The reality is...someone that wants to do this...would have a bunch of smaller magazines with him, and it will not be the first time they shot that guy...they'll be very familiar with and practiced at the incredibly simple procedure of swapping out another magazine (takes what...2.5 maybe 3 seconds for just an average unpracticed person to do this)

    The term "assault weapon" was conceived to put fear into citizens via the media. Sure it was later revised by some committee that thought they knew about guns...and modified to become a list of "big bad sceeeeerey looking guns" that they determined would be called "assault weapons". That are functionally no different than a semi auto hunting rifle. It's probably made of some black or camo colored composite....instead of varnished wood. So the logic of "none should be sold"....well...by that logic we have to ban the sales of semi-automatic hunting rifles too.

    The real topic should be max magazine capacity. Again...I too think that a 200 round drum is not necessary. 30 is more than enough..is it too much? I don't own an assault weapon...nor currently a hunting rifle or shotgun. But before I was 16 and had my drivers license I had fired more rounds through an AR-15 than we have characters typed on this thread. And I had shot full automatics by then. By my later teens I was given the incredible honor of spending an afternoon shooting an M-1 Garand. I'll never forget that...nor the grin of my face...nor the same memories and grin on my face from shooting an AR-15 with a pretty long banana clip and a full automatic also. Those right there are reasons enough for me! All done safely!

    And shooting an AR-15 with a long clip, and the full auto...at the side of a barn..has nothing to do with the lack of aiming abilities and being a poor shot...I'm quite a shot..having experience with guns since I was..oh..9 years old being taught by my dad.

    I didn't grow up coddling guns in fear of the big bad government knocking on my door to take them away either. I support the right to own a variety of guns solely on two things.... *Sport...and *Castle Doctrine (protect my family and home)

    Lots of hunters now are using AR-15 types...and variants. A lot of people out there are pig hunting...and larger capacity clips (I'm talking 20 or 30 round....not 200) are desirable for this.

    Magazine capacity....I hope it doesn't impact pistols....I want all 14 in my S&W .40 to protect my home.

    An odd thing is happening around gun shops all around the country. Their parking lots are substantially fuller. And not just with rusty pickup trucks driven by plaid shirt wearing guys with missing teeth and John Deere hats...but by typical family type guys driving Hyundais or minivans or little SUVs.
    Here is one local to me
    http://waterford.patch.com/articles/...uspatc00000001

    Sales are going through the roof over the past 2 months.
    And our wiring guy does pistol permit classes on the side...and his classes are booked for the next several months. He says the typical crowd signing up for his classes are much different than the usual types...that it's much more typical guys and women applying for permits now.

    Those two above observations...illustrate that the common public citizens attitude is different than what the media is trying to frighten us with and cram down our throats.
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  16. #16
    Advanced Member SlyOneDoofy's Avatar
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    When I think about hi-cap mags I relate it to cars.

    Why have a car that can go above any posted speed limit? We all know that speed is a factor in automobile deaths so why do we make corvettes and camaros?

    Because we like to have that feeling of freedom, power, and it's just damn fun to go out and lay some rubber and hit a straightaway to feel the acceleration up over 100 mph. Is that legal? Nope. But we make cars that will do it. But in reality, if I wanted to take a car like that to a track and do the same thing it would be legal. So, owning hi-cap mags is not a bad thing if used in a appropriate and controled manner.

    For me, I like to shoot, and to have hi-cap mags is part of what makes it fun for me. Easier to reload at home.

    I have a concealed but I only carry if I travel on long road trips. Breaking down on the side of the road with my family makes me a bit nervous and I would like the ability to scare someone off.

    Hit a dear once and put it down with my 9mm. I disliked doing it but when you see bones poking out of the legs it's the humane thing to do.

    YOS...The distinct sound of an M1-garand when it ejects the clip always makes me smile. I used to got to hi-power and garand shoots on weekends. If you have a chance it's really fun.

    Downhill...I wasn't attacking you about the hunting and the second ammendment. Sorry you took it that way. I was stating my opinion based on how I view the reasons the second ammendment was written. I believe it was written to protect us from a tyrannical government, foreign entities, and allow us to protect ourselves from threats of violence against us by unlawful citizens.
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    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    Sly.....first, I full 100% agree with your prior post about young men not being allowed to grow up, all that stuff. A big part of the problem with todays youth.

    Next....funny you mention the car analogy...you know as I was typing up that prior post of mine about magazines and assault weapons....(I know it doesn't flow well, I was being interrupted and side tracked with phone calls and working on a clients terminal server issues and a few other server things)......but I actually had a car analogy in my head I was going to type.

    Part of why existing gun owners don't want to let go of what they have now...
    Imagine growing up getting used to V-8 muscle cars....300+ horsepower cars. You own one after the other..and enjoy them. Yeah..they can go insanely fast and kill you and other people...if mis-handled.
    Suddenly there's some "ban" on cars over 100 hp ...you can only purchase cars with normally aspirated 4 cyl engines under 1.5 liters in size...and less than 75 horsepower. You have to give up that nice Mustang or Camaro or Challenger in your garage...say "buh bye" to it!

    Dang...that sucks! I'd sure have a hard time saying goodbye to my 390hp RAM truck.
    And man...I'd hate the fact that I couldn't purchase a nice HEMI powered Dodge Challenger in a few years....
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  18. #18
    Second Most EVIL YARDofSTUF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YeOldeStonecat View Post
    And man...I'd hate the fact that I couldn't purchase a nice HEMI powered Dodge Challenger in a few years....
    Well, you already can't, they aren't real HEMIs

  19. #19
    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YARDofSTUF View Post
    Well, you already can't, they aren't real HEMIs
    Say what? Sure you can. A bud recently got the srt8 392....freaking SICK car.
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  20. #20
    Advanced Member SlyOneDoofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YeOldeStonecat View Post
    Sly.....first, I full 100% agree with your prior post about young men not being allowed to grow up, all that stuff. A big part of the problem with todays youth.

    Next....funny you mention the car analogy...you know as I was typing up that prior post of mine about magazines and assault weapons....(I know it doesn't flow well, I was being interrupted and side tracked with phone calls and working on a clients terminal server issues and a few other server things)......but I actually had a car analogy in my head I was going to type.

    Part of why existing gun owners don't want to let go of what they have now...
    Imagine growing up getting used to V-8 muscle cars....300+ horsepower cars. You own one after the other..and enjoy them. Yeah..they can go insanely fast and kill you and other people...if mis-handled.
    Suddenly there's some "ban" on cars over 100 hp ...you can only purchase cars with normally aspirated 4 cyl engines under 1.5 liters in size...and less than 75 horsepower. You have to give up that nice Mustang or Camaro or Challenger in your garage...say "buh bye" to it!

    Dang...that sucks! I'd sure have a hard time saying goodbye to my 390hp RAM truck.
    And man...I'd hate the fact that I couldn't purchase a nice HEMI powered Dodge Challenger in a few years....
    I guess my question would be that if the government came to your door asking for the keys to your truck? What would you do?

    I guess my point is where will it stop? We know assault rifles are a minor cause of deaths compared to handguns. I can see that being the next focus.

    But ultimately, I see this as a way for the government to place a new tax on citizens for guns they already own. Now you will have to register your gun every year like a car and pay a tax.

    I see the agenda of our current government to tax us into submission. Know exactly what we do every day and know what we own.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Oh have you seen the new corvette stingray? I think it looks awesome.
    Last edited by SlyOneDoofy; 01-23-13 at 04:31 PM.
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