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Thread: Why the internet in America sucks donkey-balls

  1. #1
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Why the internet in America sucks donkey-balls


    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

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    Ohh Hell yeah.. Sava700's Avatar
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    What we need is a war on our own turf to destroy everything and we can rebuild from the ground up... this is pretty much why all those other countries have faster speeds as they've built everything in the last 10-15years vs us still using old phone/copper lines from the 20's!!


    It's time these ISP's start investing more into their lines, dropping more and more fiber in rural area's to expand to everyone - not just those in a high populated area.

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    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    That..and size. The author of that article doesn't touch on many of the actual reasons.
    *Size of country.
    *Population density. Many of the smaller countries that have ultra fast high speed, a HUGE percent of their population live in dense cities. Author doesn't consider the rural and hill populations in those countries, yet he whines about ours.
    *Gov't subsidized internet in many of those countries. Do we want our gov't to take ours over? Thus pay higher taxes? Didn't think so....
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    resident Humboldt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sava700 View Post

    It's time these ISP's start investing more into their lines, dropping more and more fiber in rural area's to expand to everyone - not just those in a high populated area.
    And yet you'd be first to bitch about the price hikes that would accompany that expansion

    Not disagreeing with you, just pointing out the obvious.

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    Ohh Hell yeah.. Sava700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humboldt View Post
    And yet you'd be first to bitch about the price hikes that would accompany that expansion

    Not disagreeing with you, just pointing out the obvious.
    Ohh but the price hikes now are more than enough to feed them the billions in profits they already get that could be sunk into just a fraction of the expansion needed to maybe double what we have now. The faster the speeds the less strain you put on the network thus allowing more traffic and higher bandwidth.

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    SG MVP Lefty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YeOldeStonecat View Post
    That..and size. The author of that article doesn't touch on many of the actual reasons.
    *Size of country.
    *Population density. Many of the smaller countries that have ultra fast high speed, a HUGE percent of their population live in dense cities. Author doesn't consider the rural and hill populations in those countries, yet he whines about ours.
    *Gov't subsidized internet in many of those countries. Do we want our gov't to take ours over? Thus pay higher taxes? Didn't think so....
    Winner winner chicken dinner. A great example is Maine where about half the state can only get dial up or have to use satellite.

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    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty View Post
    Winner winner chicken dinner. .
    Gimme some arroz con pollo please! And lots of pegao in there!
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    SG MVP Lefty's Avatar
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    Surely!!!

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    SG Enthusiast Leatherneck's Avatar
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    I bet many Japanese would take a bit slower speeds if they could trade their $6 a gallon gas, $100 watermelons and multi-generational mortgages for it!
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    A+, Security+, Mobility+ Shinobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sava700 View Post
    Ohh but the price hikes now are more than enough to feed them the billions in profits they already get that could be sunk into just a fraction of the expansion needed to maybe double what we have now. The faster the speeds the less strain you put on the network thus allowing more traffic and higher bandwidth.
    That comment is 100% true and accurate. Like others and myself have said before.. the ISP's hide behind download caps and do not expand their already overloaded infrastructure because that would require them to spend more $$$money$$$.

    What we need is some different independent companies to pop up in the future.. here in the U.S.A. nationwide.. Solid GB+ wireless technology will probably be the way to go in the future. Put up a tower and then maybe some repeaters of some sort.. don't have to worry about replacing old copper lines and laying out new fiber.
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  11. #11
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    I bet many Japanese would take a bit slower speeds if they could trade their $6 a gallon gas, $100 watermelons and multi-generational mortgages for it!
    A little research turned up this...

    http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/0...d-20-per-home/

    JCom invested $20 per home to get broadband speeds up to 160Mbits. Compare that to $817 per home in the US. That was in 2009. There are many myths surrounding this issue. We should look towards having an honest discussion rather than one based on emotions.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

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    Elite Member trogers's Avatar
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    The lifestyle of Suburbia is not sustainable without cheap oil, and the poor internet service in the US is only pointing out this reality. Perhaps each community pools funds together to pay and maintain a 50-mile fiber line to the nearest ISP ultra speed node, then the cost of living in such a way will hit home.
    "Contentment is not the fulfillment of what you want, but is the realisation of how much you already have" - anon

  13. #13
    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    "the Japanese government regularly provide subsidies of up to 33% for the maintenance and upkeep of the entire network infrastructure with the aim of propelling Japan to the forefront of the fast growing global digital economy."

    Now, lets think about that for a minute before people start demanding that the US government pave the roads for broadband all across the US. Cities in Korea and Japan are very..VERY dense. Tall modern buildings. A higher percentage of the overall population live in these denser areas. Relatively easy for Japans government to subsidize these projects and cover a fat percentage of their population. So when you see statistics like "invested 20 dollars per home"...don't forget to think about that for a minute...they light up one skyscraper apartment building with tons and tons of those typically tiny apartments in one building...that does not compare to what it costs to light up a typical home over here in the US with our more typical 'burb and rural areas. Proceed just one block down..and plug in another super high dense apartment building.

    "the FTTH does not yet enjoy full coverage in Japan"

    http://techsling.com/2009/05/fast-br...ue-from-japan/

    Now, why are people saying broadband in the US is not growing?
    When I signed up at Speedguide (2001)...I had just gotten DSL, a whole 3/4 of a meg. The faster packages were cable...at 1.5 megs. Soon 3 meg cable came out..and DSL went to 1.5 megs. A year or so later I upgrade to cable, getting the 6 meg package. A year or so later, they introduced power boost...and I enjoyed downloads of up to 28 megs (early in they had the throttle wide open and I enjoyed up past 70 megs) I'm now with U-Verse, 18 megs, I could get faster but keeping budget down, and most cable companies have packages of 100 megs, and Verizon has a package above 100 megs (160 megs I think?)

    Summary...10 years of broadband for me, and I've seen steady growth. Rock steady growth.
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  14. #14
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YeOldeStonecat View Post
    "the Japanese government regularly provide subsidies of up to 33% for the maintenance and upkeep of the entire network infrastructure with the aim of propelling Japan to the forefront of the fast growing global digital economy."

    Now, lets think about that for a minute before people start demanding that the US government pave the roads for broadband all across the US. Cities in Korea and Japan are very..VERY dense. Tall modern buildings. A higher percentage of the overall population live in these denser areas. Relatively easy for Japans government to subsidize these projects and cover a fat percentage of their population. So when you see statistics like "invested 20 dollars per home"...don't forget to think about that for a minute...they light up one skyscraper apartment building with tons and tons of those typically tiny apartments in one building...that does not compare to what it costs to light up a typical home over here in the US with our more typical 'burb and rural areas. Proceed just one block down..and plug in another super high dense apartment building.

    "the FTTH does not yet enjoy full coverage in Japan"

    http://techsling.com/2009/05/fast-br...ue-from-japan/

    Now, why are people saying broadband in the US is not growing?
    When I signed up at Speedguide (2001)...I had just gotten DSL, a whole 3/4 of a meg. The faster packages were cable...at 1.5 megs. Soon 3 meg cable came out..and DSL went to 1.5 megs. A year or so later I upgrade to cable, getting the 6 meg package. A year or so later, they introduced power boost...and I enjoyed downloads of up to 28 megs (early in they had the throttle wide open and I enjoyed up past 70 megs) I'm now with U-Verse, 18 megs, I could get faster but keeping budget down, and most cable companies have packages of 100 megs, and Verizon has a package above 100 megs (160 megs I think?)

    Summary...10 years of broadband for me, and I've seen steady growth. Rock steady growth.

    IT's growing as well as pricing but mostly for those that already have it. The point that was being made was that there are still many areas in the US that don't have access to high speed broadband. Now it's true that Japan does provide subsidies but they are trying to push their economy for everyone. Of course this brings up the tax burden. In America this is demonized. I think we need a better balance. I would support limited taxation for network infrastructure so long as it is not tied into government control. I don't know how much government control Japan exerts over it's net. What we have to figure out in America is how much control are we willing to give the government in exchange for it's help in expanding broadband beyond those of us that are lucky enough to get it.

    IMHO, I think we could be doing it better than Japan or anywhere for that matter so long as we take the best ideas from those success stories while discarding those portions that clearly won't work for us in America. I think that the net in America should be regarded as critical infrastructure rather than an entertainment luxury. The global economy has shifted and we need to be able to keep pace. But if it's considered critical, who protects it? Another point to consider is the lack of competition with ISP's. We need more imho. This would not only be better for consumers...it also avoids single points of failure. If the Chinese were to attack the Comcast network, the end effect could be devastating. Look at what recently happened to the Play Station network. If this were taken to a larger level, the result could be catastrophic. I look at the PSN example as a warning.

    Here are my main points that I think our legislators should be discussing.

    1. Short and long range plans to expand broadband access to all parts of America.
    2. Keeping the net open
    3. Fostering competition
    4. Protecting the net and regarding it as critical infrastructure without unreasonable government intervention or oversight.

    Lastly, I think America is going in the right direction. I think technology and innovation in the wireless space is where we can make our greatest gains in rural areas.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  15. #15
    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    I absolutely agree on allowing more competition between ISPs. Reworded....allow ISPs to overlap areas. It's especially bad with cable, usually where you live..you have just one choice for your cable TV 'n internet. With DSL, you have your one local phone company providing DSL...many people assume it's just that but you usually are able to get DSL/fiber from other (specialized) DSL ISPs.

    I'm not fond of allowing our gov't to step in. Japans (and others) gov'ts may be able to do things right...take Japans for example, they have growth and best interest in mind. The amount of horror that could happen if our gov't tried to emulate that....would be staggering. You have a valid point...how much control would we give our gov't over that. Because you know our gov't won't subsidize that without being able to stick both hands in that pot.

    Allowing ISP competition, overlapping regions. The size of the region, or country for that matter. Smaller countries...focused in small cities...it's easy to allow competition across many ISPs. Large countries...ISPs are broken down into regions of coverage. Because they have to rely on their backbones in regions. It's a physical limitation that grew out of the chopped up monopoly of regions. Comcast has lines in its regions, but it has no lines on towns across the border. How does an ISP lay down lines to areas outside of its prior borders, if it will not get 100% of the residents? For that to happen, in a country our size...that's a huge logistical barrier. There would have to be some common, neutral, backbone providers. Which still raises cost, 'cuz there's now a "man in the middle".

    Anyways, would love to see competition happen.
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  16. #16
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YeOldeStonecat View Post
    I absolutely agree on allowing more competition between ISPs. Reworded....allow ISPs to overlap areas. It's especially bad with cable, usually where you live..you have just one choice for your cable TV 'n internet. With DSL, you have your one local phone company providing DSL...many people assume it's just that but you usually are able to get DSL/fiber from other (specialized) DSL ISPs.

    I'm not fond of allowing our gov't to step in. Japans (and others) gov'ts may be able to do things right...take Japans for example, they have growth and best interest in mind. The amount of horror that could happen if our gov't tried to emulate that....would be staggering. You have a valid point...how much control would we give our gov't over that. Because you know our gov't won't subsidize that without being able to stick both hands in that pot.

    Allowing ISP competition, overlapping regions. The size of the region, or country for that matter. Smaller countries...focused in small cities...it's easy to allow competition across many ISPs. Large countries...ISPs are broken down into regions of coverage. Because they have to rely on their backbones in regions. It's a physical limitation that grew out of the chopped up monopoly of regions. Comcast has lines in its regions, but it has no lines on towns across the border. How does an ISP lay down lines to areas outside of its prior borders, if it will not get 100% of the residents? For that to happen, in a country our size...that's a huge logistical barrier. There would have to be some common, neutral, backbone providers. Which still raises cost, 'cuz there's now a "man in the middle".

    Anyways, would love to see competition happen.

    Wow, talk about timing lol...this is the latest ruling by the SCOTUS where they said that AT&T must share it's lines with the competition while not raising rates.

    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...connection.ars

    On Thursday, the Supreme Court ruled that AT&T and other incumbent telephone companies must provide their competitors, including petitioner Talk America, with facilities needed to connect to the incumbents' network at regulated rates. The FCC urged the court to side with Talk America. Writing for a unanimous court, Justice Thomas held that the court owed deference to the FCC's interpretation of its own regulations unless that interpretation was inconsistent with federal law.

    The 1996 Telecommunications Act imposed two distinct obligations on a Baby Bell such as AT&T. First, AT&T is required to allow interconnection with a competitor's network at regulated rates. Second, AT&T's facilities are subject to "unbundling"a competitor is entitled to use certain parts of the incumbent's network, such as the "local loop" that connects a customer premise with the Baby Bell's network, to provide its own services. Unbundling rates are also regulated by the FCC
    At the same time, I'm not really fond of the idea that the SCOTUS had to step in. Sure, it was a legal matter to begin with but the FCC had already made it's decision consistent with current law. This ruling is gonna crop up elsewhere and I imagine that it will come up with Comcast and their "last mile".

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

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    SG Enthusiast Leatherneck's Avatar
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    Many folks in my area are under the impression that it is absolutely impossible to compete against Comcast. They wish there was competition and of course that could be good. Problem is cable companies rarely overbuild and you can't just "share" the fiber and coax for today's advanced services. It's not simple voice or just analog TV so you'd need to build an entire plant then market and sell it. It must not be worth it or we would see it more. Company "B" isn't likely to offer a vastly superior product at a reduced price or even the same price unless there is some real change. What is that change? People are worried about keeping their homes right now.
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    Ohh Hell yeah.. Sava700's Avatar
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    At least for 700 or so homes it won't suck for $70...the same damn price I pay for my MUCH slower package thru Comcast!

    American ISPs have convinced us that Internet access is expensive—getting speeds of 100Mbps will set most people back by more than $100 a month, assuming the service is even available. Where I live in Chicago, Comcast's 105Mbps service goes for a whopping $199.95 ("premium installation" and cable modem not included). Which is why it was so refreshing to see the scrappy California ISP Sonic.net this week roll out its new 1Gbps, fiber-to-the-home service… for $69.99 a month.

    Sonic.net has been around since 1994, selling DSL service in California, but it has recently expanded into fiber; the company has even secured the contract to manage Google's own 1Gbps fiber network that will connect 800+ faculty homes at Stanford University.

    Sonic.net's new approach to broadband involves stringing its own fiber lines to homes and offering bargain-basement pricing; indeed, the new 1Gbps offering is the same price as the company's earlier bonded 40Mbps DSL offering (in which two phones lines each provide 20Mbps of bandwidth to a home). The price even includes home phone service.
    Is this really a sustainable model? After all, Comcast offers 1.5Mbps service for a list price of $40; Sonic.net's new offering is more than 600x faster at only twice the price.

    Dane Jasper, Sonic.net's CEO, tells me that the new fiber-to-the-home deployment is a trial and will reach about 700 homes when complete. "Honestly, only as those wrap up will we have a complete picture of the economic model," he says. "But I believe that fast service for a low cost is possible."

    If the pilot in Sebastopol, California goes well, Sonic.net hopes to expand the service across the region.
    Jasper doesn't think like a typical US Internet exec; in an interview last year, he made clear that his company tries to avoid artificial limits as a way to make more money. "The natural model when you have a simple duopoly capturing the majority of the market is segmentation: maximize ARPU [average revenue per user] by artificially limiting service in order to drive additional monthly spending. But fundamentally this is the wrong model for a service provider like us, and we have looked to Europe for inspiration… I believe that removing the artificial limits on speed, and including home phone with the product are both very exciting."

    Though the current trial is small-scale, Sonic.net's pricing reminds us just how much room there is in the US Internet market for truly disruptive pricing of the kind that Google has been promising—but on a much larger scale—with its 1Gbps fiber builds in Kansas City, Missouri and Kansas City, Kansas.
    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...merica-yup.ars

  19. #19
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    Many folks in my area are under the impression that it is absolutely impossible to compete against Comcast. They wish there was competition and of course that could be good. Problem is cable companies rarely overbuild and you can't just "share" the fiber and coax for today's advanced services. It's not simple voice or just analog TV so you'd need to build an entire plant then market and sell it. It must not be worth it or we would see it more. Company "B" isn't likely to offer a vastly superior product at a reduced price or even the same price unless there is some real change. What is that change? People are worried about keeping their homes right now.

    The real change will be in the wireless space as it's not only eco friendly, but generally speaking, the start-up costs are much smaller.

    Another point...Comcast didn't create the infrastructure they now own, they bought it. I know, I was a customer of 2 companies that were bought by Comcast. The first was Tri-County Cable and the second was Garden State Cable TV. The problem is that through the 70's and 80's there was a lot of competition just in my county in NJ. There were many disputes and hearings and of course much zoning and planning...all of which is paid for by the taxpayers. In essence, the people of NJ have a stake (a shareholder) in the physical infrastructure that Comcast now owns. This is why Cable needs to be regulated just as any other public utility and priced accordingly BASED ON CONSUMPTION.

    If Comcast doesn't want to price based on consumption then they must allow a-la-carte programming. What would be even better is if Comcast started charging media companies to air their content. The only thing that we as consumers would pay for is consumption just like electric or water or gas.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  20. #20
    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JawZ View Post
    The real change will be in the wireless space as it's not only eco friendly, but generally speaking, the start-up costs are much smaller.

    Another point...Comcast didn't create the infrastructure they now own, they bought it. I know, I was a customer of 2 companies that were bought by Comcast. The first was Tri-County Cable and the second was Garden State Cable TV.
    You're in an area that got absorbed by Comcast...so in those cases...yes, immediately the assets are assimilated. But when an ISP is bought up, its equipment is usually upgraded/replaced over time to become standardized with the mothership ISP that just bought them up. And the backbones get replaced/dropped and point to the new mothership.

    BTW, I'm also totally 100% pro "pay by consumption"...I've been saying that for years. Pay for what you use..just like gas, electricity, food, etc.
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