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Thread: The Wisconsin Protesters are Awesome Thread.

  1. #21
    Regular Member Miggs's Avatar
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    I'll give you one guess on where I stand on unions.

    They are bottom feeders who want and want and want more, c'mon 75 bucks an hour to build cars and trash collectors in NY are making 100K a year for removing trash.
    Lets end ALL unions.
    I Hope He Fails

  2. #22
    Flip Chip Qwijib0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
    Companies are in business for one reason PROFIT! No one is in business to make everyone equal. If an employee doesn't like his pay..... QUIT, and find something else. If some employee wants more, why not start your own company? They will soon realize it's not as easy as it seems.

    With that said F&*K Unions!!!!!
    Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of profit. But there's profit, and there's profit at the expense of everything else. Do you think that executives were 200%+ more productive than the other 95% of America over the past couple decades?

    What happens when your employer decides that you are only allowed to work 35 hours per week to deny you benefits? And colludes with the business across the street to do the same thing?
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  3. #23
    Flip Chip Qwijib0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggs View Post
    I'll give you one guess on where I stand on unions.

    They are bottom feeders who want and want and want more, c'mon 75 bucks an hour to build cars and trash collectors in NY are making 100K a year for removing trash.
    Lets end ALL unions.
    From the UAW's site, in whose best interest it is to inflate numbers, the highest union salary as of 2010 was $23/hour, $40.33/hour once all benefits are included. That's a before-tax take home pay of $49,000/year, hardly an obscene dollar amount.

    As for your trash collectors-- the little digging I could do suggests that that number is close to accurate for some unionized workers. I'll agree with you, it's pretty outrageous and they should probably be taking home about a third of that. One outrageous example, however, hardly proves that all unions are bad.

    JPMorgan, a company whose existence is continued because of public money, paid its bankers $370,000 last year. Should we end ALL banks?
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  4. #24
    SG Enthusiast Leatherneck's Avatar
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    2 sides to every coin. Yes the unions represented the workers and brought them through some pretty abusive times but we don't send 12 year old kids into coal mines anymore and I doubt we start any time soon. I am also the Son of a 32 year UAW man who called the union a necessary evil in that it did some good but he witnessed some really crappy things too. Drunks and druggies sleeping in the locker room with no disciplinary action day after day receiving the same pay, benefits and promotions as others because of "time".
    It took me 5 years to get where I am with Comcast. In a union system it could and would have taken 20 years to get my position. I busted my butt as an older guy and it payed off.

    I am not condemning workers who want a fair wage and to prosper, but in a climate of tax & spend it is possible to bargain your way right out the door!
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  5. #25
    Flip Chip Qwijib0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    2 sides to every coin. Yes the unions represented the workers and brought them through some pretty abusive times but we don't send 12 year old kids into coal mines anymore and I doubt we start any time soon. I am also the Son of a 32 year UAW man who called the union a necessary evil in that it did some good but he witnessed some really crappy things too. Drunks and druggies sleeping in the locker room with no disciplinary action day after day receiving the same pay, benefits and promotions as others because of "time".
    It took me 5 years to get where I am with Comcast. In a union system it could and would have taken 20 years to get my position. I busted my butt as an older guy and it payed off.

    I am not condemning workers who want a fair wage and to prosper, but in a climate of tax & spend it is possible to bargain your way right out the door!
    No doubts that every union employee has stories of terrible co-workers. Much like any large enough collection of people, some dick will take advantage of the group. This time, however, the union bargained down and only wanted the right to bargain again when things improved. In the end, the legislation that passed only stripped them of their right to do that.

    The workers who want a fair wage just happen to be public employees in this case, and they're being used as pawns in a game to defeat Obama in 2012.
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  6. #26
    SG Enthusiast Leatherneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwijib0 View Post
    No doubts that every union employee has stories of terrible co-workers. Much like any large enough collection of people, some dick will take advantage of the group. This time, however, the union bargained down and only wanted the right to bargain again when things improved. In the end, the legislation that passed only stripped them of their right to do that.

    The workers who want a fair wage just happen to be public employees in this case, and they're being used as pawns in a game to defeat Obama in 2012.
    I'm not going to "argue" as I am genuinely concerned about the state of our individual states and country. How do you propose that we continue to fund pensions with tax dollars? A private company is different. There isn't enough coming in to keep the same amount going out. Certain groups have lived off the fat of the land and now that hog is skin and bones. It's just reality.
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  7. #27
    Second Most EVIL YARDofSTUF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    I'm not going to "argue" as I am genuinely concerned about the state of our individual states and country. How do you propose that we continue to fund pensions with tax dollars? A private company is different. There isn't enough coming in to keep the same amount going out. Certain groups have lived off the fat of the land and now that hog is skin and bones. It's just reality.
    Well the first problem is that its still being promised to us all. This has been a known issue for at least 20 some odd years right? And nothing has happened to change it. Social security either needs a massive change or or needs to be cut so people can put the money to their own retirement plan. It still leaves an issue with paying for the people who are getting social security already, and those close to retirement that couldn't build up a plan on their own, but sitting around watching it fail isn't a great strategy.

  8. #28
    SG Enthusiast cybotron r_9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwijib0 View Post
    The Wisconsin public employees were already contributing 100% of their pension-- none of the pension fund came from taxpayers, it's all deferred compensation.

    http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Infor...t%20System.pdf


    Take a look at pages 24 & 43, who is responsible for paying Unfunded Accrued Liabilities?

  9. #29
    Flip Chip Qwijib0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cybotron r_9 View Post
    http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Infor...t%20System.pdf


    Take a look at pages 24 & 43, who is responsible for paying Unfunded Accrued Liabilities?
    Yes, unfunded liabilities fall to the taxpayer. This would be a concern if the wisconsin retirement system was underfunded by state employees. But it isn't. Even during this recession the fund managers kept things in balance with no taxpayer dollars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Center for retirement research
    The Wisconsin Retirement System is one of the better funded plans in the nation,” says Jean-Pierre Aubry, a research associate at the Center for Retirement Research at Boston College, which tracks state and local pensions. He says Wisconsin has consistently contributed 100 percent of the amount of money that actuaries calculate is needed each year, and has a funded ratio well beyond the 80 percent benchmark that experts consider healthy.
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  10. #30
    Flip Chip Qwijib0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    I'm not going to "argue" as I am genuinely concerned about the state of our individual states and country. How do you propose that we continue to fund pensions with tax dollars? A private company is different. There isn't enough coming in to keep the same amount going out. Certain groups have lived off the fat of the land and now that hog is skin and bones. It's just reality.
    Pensions are not separately funded with tax dollars. The only connection is that it is taken from salary, which is taxpayer funded. It is 100% deffered compensation. If these employees did not have a pension, they would receive more in each paycheck and their 401Ks would be "taxpayer funded".
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  11. #31
    SG Enthusiast Leatherneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwijib0 View Post
    Pensions are not separately funded with tax dollars. The only connection is that it is taken from salary, which is taxpayer funded. It is 100% deffered compensation. If these employees did not have a pension, they would receive more in each paycheck and their 401Ks would be "taxpayer funded".
    O.K. then how do we balance the books so that our children's children aren't destitute? Do we all give in one way or another or do we rely on the politicians to just make it happen? I think their track record and wealth speaks for itself.
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  12. #32
    Flip Chip Qwijib0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    O.K. then how do we balance the books so that our children's children aren't destitute? Do we all give in one way or another or do we rely on the politicians to just make it happen? I think their track record and wealth speaks for itself.
    We balance the books by not continuing to hand out tax breaks for corporations and individuals who can most afford them. The top 400 earners in the US last year, paid nothing close to the 35% percent tax bracket they're supposedly in, it's more like 16%. The corporate tax rate, also 35% is not even close to the effective tax rate-- US Corporations pay, on average, an effective 2.2% tax rate. Last year, GE and Bank of America paid no taxes. Corporations are not overtaxed, and continuing to hand them money will do nothing to create jobs or generate taxable income-- any new taxable profits will be cleverly hidden. The first step to fiscal responsibility is ensuring that businesses are good corporate citizens, and the wealthiest pay their fair share like the rest of us.

    All that's been done so far is to use the recession-exacerbated deficits to take social programs away from those who need them most, and defund public education all while continuing to promote flawed taxing policy. The only beneficiaries of the current strategy are those who already hold the wealth. We're currently not "all in this together"-- the only people tightening belts are the ones without much left to tighten around.

    Once we get our tax scheme in order, we can look at additional cuts or 'excessive' government employee salaries.
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  13. #33
    SG Enthusiast Leatherneck's Avatar
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    I also believe that our "leaders" have squandered billions upon billions of taxpayer's money on themselves and self interests. That worked for them until the piggy bank was emptied. Studying lesbian frogs, bees that fly backwards, funding art like $hit in a bottle, funding criminal leaders, paying unchecked contractors 100x a fair price, and on and on. So much money and so much waste for such a long time and now we can't even fund the very basics.
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  14. #34
    TypicalWhitePerson JC's Avatar
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    The REAL purpose of the teachers unions.

    Speedguide.... If you don't love Obama you won't like it here.
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  15. #35
    Flip Chip Qwijib0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    I also believe that our "leaders" have squandered billions upon billions of taxpayer's money on themselves and self interests. That worked for them until the piggy bank was emptied. Studying lesbian frogs, bees that fly backwards, funding art like $hit in a bottle, funding criminal leaders, paying unchecked contractors 100x a fair price, and on and on. So much money and so much waste for such a long time and now we can't even fund the very basics.
    Yes they have, themselves and special interests being wealthy Americans and corporate welfare.

    The National Endowment for the arts' funding last year was $167M. The National Science Foundation got 6.9 Billion.

    Compare that to the cost of the ongoing wars, including a $7B no-bid contract to halliburton, and subsidies for oil companies that are currently hovering at $4B.

    You are not wrong that there is wasted money in government, but instead of going after things that everyone can agree on like poorly-negotiated contracts, the cuts are all affecting people who, coincidentally, have no money to lobby for themselves.
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  16. #36
    Flip Chip Qwijib0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
    The REAL purpose of the teachers unions.

    I found a transcript, too. I'll go ahead and post it.

    Quote Originally Posted by NEA Speech
    Despite what some among us would like to believe it is not because of our creative ideas; it is not because of the merit of our positions; it is not because we care about children; and it is not because we have a vision of a great public school for every child.

    The NEA and its affiliates are effective advocates because we have power. And we have power because there are more than 3.2 million people who are willing to pay us hundreds of million of dollars in dues each year because they believe that we are the unions that can most effectively represent them; the union that can protect their rights and advance their interests as education employees.
    He's right.

    Wisconsin public schools are among the best performing in the country-- it's because their teachers DO have creative ideas and they DO care about children. That's not enough though-- because if merit and quality teaching were actual benchmarks used by legislators to determine teacher salaries, then we should be seeing an INCREASE in compensation being proposed, or at the very least not a decrease. It's only because they are a union, with financial backing, that they can fight for appropriate wages. Without the union they're left with only good ideas and hard work-- and that clearly wasn't enough in Wisconsin.
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