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Thread: The Wisconsin Protesters are Awesome Thread.

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    Flip Chip Qwijib0's Avatar
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    The Wisconsin Protesters are Awesome Thread.

    you go guys!

    can't wait for the tractorcade on saturday.

    Love,
    Qwijib0
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    Ohh Hell yeah.. Sava700's Avatar
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    Funny to watch.. pro-union greed at its best!

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    Flip Chip Qwijib0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sava700 View Post
    Funny to watch.. pro-union greed at its best!
    Yes, how dare workers bargain together. The 'greedy' union had already conceded all the fiscal changes Walker wanted.
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    Moderator Roody's Avatar
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    I need a little education on the subject in all honesty. I've been following it closely on the news, but I'd love to hear pros and cons from anyone regarding unions. I know back in the 70's my dad actually work for a couple unions, but hasn't been a fan since.

    Any thoughts on the Wisconsin situation?

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    SG Enthusiast Leatherneck's Avatar
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    People have to give a little, all of us! Can we honestly afford to keep paying for everyone's pensions? There is not enough tax money to sustain period.
    Riding around in a city truck picking up soda cans for $38.50 an hour means to me that a person is more than capable of contributing to a 401k like I do.
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    Ohh Hell yeah.. Sava700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwijib0 View Post
    Yes, how dare workers bargain together. The 'greedy' union had already conceded all the fiscal changes Walker wanted.
    Leatherneck posted pretty much how I would have for your post, everyone has to give up a little here and it would appear the people that feel being a part of a union keeps them from being effected is just that. To restrict how you can bargain in the future leaves options for a constantly changing economy. You just can't Lock something in and say that is that when you have more money going out than coming in, just doesn't add up does it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    People have to give a little, all of us! Can we honestly afford to keep paying for everyone's pensions? There is not enough tax money to sustain period.
    Riding around in a city truck picking up soda cans for $38.50 an hour means to me that a person is more than capable of contributing to a 401k like I do.
    Right on..couldn't have said it better myself.

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    Flip Chip Qwijib0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck View Post
    People have to give a little, all of us! Can we honestly afford to keep paying for everyone's pensions? There is not enough tax money to sustain period.
    Riding around in a city truck picking up soda cans for $38.50 an hour means to me that a person is more than capable of contributing to a 401k like I do.
    The Wisconsin public employees were already contributing 100% of their pension-- none of the pension fund came from taxpayers, it's all deferred compensation. In fact, public employees earn 4.8 percent less than their equally-educated private sector counterparts, retirement and benefits included. The story of one or two people gaming overtime to make an absurd hourly wage is a red herring.

    You [and this is the royal you, everyone reading this thread] should not be asking "why do those public employees get better healthcare and retirement options?" You should be asking "why don't I?" It really is a shame to see everyone who is clamoring to strip these public servants of whatever they can to drag them down a notch because they've been screwed by the private sector.
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    Flip Chip Qwijib0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sava700 View Post
    Leatherneck posted pretty much how I would have for your post, everyone has to give up a little here and it would appear the people that feel being a part of a union keeps them from being effected is just that. To restrict how you can bargain in the future leaves options for a constantly changing economy. You just can't Lock something in and say that is that when you have more money going out than coming in, just doesn't add up does it.
    It's called a contract. if company A signed a contract with company B to provide labor, and then all of a sudden told company B 'sorry, we made a bad deal we're going to go ahead and not honor it", company B could take them to court and WIN. This situation is no different.

    The union is the only way for workers to compete with corporate interests. Everybody, including myself, has heard anecdotes of unions doing stupid and self-interested things, and the general reaction is that unions have outlived their usefulness. Corporations also do stupid and self-interested things-- dos that mean they have also outlived their usefulness?
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    Flip Chip Qwijib0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody View Post
    I need a little education on the subject in all honesty. I've been following it closely on the news, but I'd love to hear pros and cons from anyone regarding unions. I know back in the 70's my dad actually work for a couple unions, but hasn't been a fan since.

    Any thoughts on the Wisconsin situation?
    Unions are the reason the middle class exists. Workplace safety, the 5-day workweek, sick days? All because of unions. As long as corporations have 'personhood' and are required to make every effort to turn profits for shareholders, unions are the only way for labor to achieve reasonable compensation and working conditions.
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    Ohh Hell yeah.. Sava700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwijib0 View Post
    It's called a contract. if company A signed a contract with company B to provide labor, and then all of a sudden told company B 'sorry, we made a bad deal we're going to go ahead and not honor it", company B could take them to court and WIN. This situation is no different.

    The union is the only way for workers to compete with corporate interests. Everybody, including myself, has heard anecdotes of unions doing stupid and self-interested things, and the general reaction is that unions have outlived their usefulness. Corporations also do stupid and self-interested things-- dos that mean they have also outlived their usefulness?
    I've seen both sides of how a Union and Company works, it's not in the best interest to give up your own voice to involve the voice of the majority of others. But a Union today is much much different than the Union of yesterday so you have to roll with the times. The purpose is to be able to restrict how a union can bargain a contract when it causes hardship on the publics needs cause as it stands now you have more money going out than coming in thanks to the conditions of the economy. What do you expect to happen in order to correct this...the state just start printing its own money to make up for it or grow a few money tree's??? People have the option to work else where if they don't feel they can give up what many others have already givin up. It's no surprise to anyone here that I'm against any type of labor union so I'm trying to keep my opinion centered with what all I've read and learned about the situation thus far.

    I guess my biggest issue with all this is how those Democrats have tucked tail and run away when we are trying to have a democracy as it was meant to be.

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    Flip Chip Qwijib0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sava700 View Post
    I've seen both sides of how a Union and Company works, it's not in the best interest to give up your own voice to involve the voice of the majority of others. But a Union today is much much different than the Union of yesterday so you have to roll with the times. The purpose is to be able to restrict how a union can bargain a contract when it causes hardship on the publics needs cause as it stands now you have more money going out than coming in thanks to the conditions of the economy. What do you expect to happen in order to correct this...the state just start printing its own money to make up for it or grow a few money tree's??? People have the option to work else where if they don't feel they can give up what many others have already givin up. It's no surprise to anyone here that I'm against any type of labor union so I'm trying to keep my opinion centered with what all I've read and learned about the situation thus far.
    I agree we're in a financial mess-- mind you this mess is a result of poor decision-making by those who continue to have the wealth and are experiencing record profits. The point is that the public unions agreed to all the financial concessions. All of them-- retirement, wages, and healthcare. All they wanted to keep was their ability to collectively bargain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sava700 View Post
    I guess my biggest issue with all this is how those Democrats have tucked tail and run away when we are trying to have a democracy as it was meant to be.
    No, the democrats were preserving the last shreds of American Democracy. Despite what Walker and the GOP say, this was never about money. Well, not about a budget crisis. It's always been about 2012. The last big democratic donors are unions. Bust them, and the only money left for campaigns comes from republican donors and corporations (thanks, citizens united!)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLJdi...layer_embedded

    No matter your political views, you must be ****ing furious that the party in power, under the auspices of a financial fix package (which they stripped of all the financial bits to pass without the quorum REQUIRED for financial legislation) is systematically dismantling the opposition party's means of funding itself, and in the crossfire are regular working folk.

    If you're not even a little concerned about it, well, that makes me just a little sad.
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    Moderator Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sava700 View Post
    You just can't Lock something in and say that is that when you have more money going out than coming in,.
    So why are you a fan of permanent tax cuts then? I can understand tax cuts when you have a surplus, but tax cuts when you are in a deficit? Or at war?

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    Ohh Hell yeah.. Sava700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwijib0 View Post

    If you're not even a little concerned about it, well, that makes me just a little sad.
    My only concern was what I spoke of already, police were sent to their homes yet they insisted on jumping state to avoid an open discussion and vote on critical issues. Instead doing this has cost the state alot of money for security around due to the protesters and countless other things due to the delay. I feel those that left the state should be held accountable for the costs and punishment concerning the circumstances in which they tucked tail and ran.

    That's pretty much all I'm going to add to this conversation.

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    Flip Chip Qwijib0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sava700 View Post
    My only concern was what I spoke of already, police were sent to their homes yet they insisted on jumping state to avoid an open discussion and vote on critical issues.
    There was never going to be "open discussion". If the democrats had stayed, the vote would have happened anyway. By leaving, they forced the Republican hand that it wasn't fiscal because that's how they ended up passing it in the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sava700 View Post
    Instead doing this has cost the state alot of money for security around due to the protesters and countless other things due to the delay. I feel those that left the state should be held accountable for the costs and punishment concerning the circumstances in which they tucked tail and ran.

    That's pretty much all I'm going to add to this conversation.
    Oh yes, all that money because of the rowdy protesters and union thugs. Oh wait

    http://www.cityofmadison.com/news/view.cfm?news_id=2526

    A press release, commending the protestors for "voicing disagreement over proposed legislation without violence". And that $7.5M figure for "damage" to the capitol? yeah, those numbers were not based in reality.

    http://www.wkow.com/Global/story.asp?S=14186737

    and even that number could go down. Curse those protestors for using non-damaging tape! how dare they respect their own capitol. You'll note that the repairs include landscaping fees. Yeah, I guess standing peacefully for days at a time could hurt the grass.
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    Moderator Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sava700 View Post

    That's pretty much all I'm going to add to this conversation.
    It would be nice to get you to explain your views on things when questions are asked as opposed to you making a statement and then running away.

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    TypicalWhitePerson JC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwijib0 View Post
    The Wisconsin public employees were already contributing 100% of their pension-- none of the pension fund came from taxpayers, it's all deferred compensation. In fact, public employees earn 4.8 percent less than their equally-educated private sector counterparts, retirement and benefits included. The story of one or two people gaming overtime to make an absurd hourly wage is a red herring.

    You [and this is the royal you, everyone reading this thread] should not be asking "why do those public employees get better healthcare and retirement options?" You should be asking "why don't I?" It really is a shame to see everyone who is clamoring to strip these public servants of whatever they can to drag them down a notch because they've been screwed by the private sector.

    Lets look at the difference between Government teacher pay vs Private teacher pay.

    I personally dislike unions, but public sector unions need to go and go fast!
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    NYC Newbie Slayer Prey521's Avatar
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    When unions were first created, they were done so out of a need to protect employees from the company. Now that they've served their purpose, the unions have become something that is a problem. Just like anything else that got involved in politics, the unions are, for the most part I believe, now corrupt and cause more problems than they solve.

    People who needed unions? Coal miners and their families.

    People who never should have needed them? Teachers, firefighters, and police.

    If government was the answer to everything, these government-affiliated jobs wouldn't need a union.
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    Flip Chip Qwijib0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBrazen View Post
    When unions were first created, they were done so out of a need to protect employees from the company. Now that they've served their purpose, the unions have become something that is a problem. Just like anything else that got involved in politics, the unions are, for the most part I believe, now corrupt and cause more problems than they solve.
    Corporations are also corrupt. Should they be un-incorporated? In the last 30 years, middle class wages have stayed stagnant while corporate and executive profits have grown substantially. There seems to be a pervasive thought that corporations are going to look after their workers, and reward them for hard work without any pressure. Fact: corporations care about profits, not employee well-being. If the reverse were true, wages for the rest of us would have grown along with company profits. They haven't. Pension plans would still exist. They don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBrazen View Post
    People who needed unions? Coal miners and their families.

    People who never should have needed them? Teachers, firefighters, and police.

    If government was the answer to everything, these government-affiliated jobs wouldn't need a union.
    Public sector unions exist for the same reason private-sector unions exist, to prevent a race to the bottom. Public sector employees deserve the same wage and working condition protections that any other wage-earner deserves. I believe that police and fire personnel should be able to bargain for and protect safety regulations. Teachers should be able to bargain for class sizes. And they all have the right to a living wage. Clearly public unions are overpowered with their below-average pay, and willingness to concede compensation when asked. Yes, sometimes poor employees get protected by union policies. The fact that sometimes the mechanism fails does not mean it is worthless.

    And once again, I remind you that the discussion we're having is the wrong one. This is really about political posturing. The last big democratic donors are unions. Bust them, and the only money left for campaigns comes from republican donors and corporations. It's much easier to go after public unions first, so they're doing that.
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    Flip Chip Qwijib0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
    Lets look at the difference between Government teacher pay vs Private teacher pay.

    I personally dislike unions, but public sector unions need to go and go fast!
    The only data available compares teacher pay with private sector employes with similar levels of education, the 4.8% less I linked earlier. The only real assumption we can make from this is that since private sector teachers fall in the "private sector employees" bucket, logically they make more than public sector teachers.

    If they make less, it's most likely because they don't have the same level of education as their public-school counterparts. Walker's 'fiscal repair' bill removes some requirements for private school teachers, the result of which will increase the applicant pool to include poorer-qualified educators who will work for less. A race to the bottom in an industry whose purpose is supposed to be education, but will soon turn to profit.
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    TypicalWhitePerson JC's Avatar
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    Companies are in business for one reason PROFIT! No one is in business to make everyone equal. If an employee doesn't like his pay..... QUIT, and find something else. If some employee wants more, why not start your own company? They will soon realize it's not as easy as it seems.

    With that said F&*K Unions!!!!!
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