Re: Fanboi's lament - falling out of love with the iPad

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 31 May 2010 00:12:44 -0700, Michelle Steiner
<michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

>In article <300520102348468822%nospam@nospam.invalid>,
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> i remember people asking me how many columns the original mac screen
>> had. i said there were no columns, the number of characters per line
>> varied because almost all fonts were proportional. it all depends what
>> letters and fonts were used, and what sizes.
>
>Yup, and trying to sell Macs to people who had been told by "experts" that
>they shouldn't buy any computer that didn't have at least an 80-column
>display was just that more difficult. I literally had to let people count
>the characters across the screen.

Yep, but that was when PC's had 12" or 14" screens, and the Mac Plus
had a 9" screen. It was difficult to see 80 columns on such a small
screen. There was also good business reasons for wanting 80x24
(actually 80x25 if you included the status line). Many users were
still logging into remote computers, mainframes, and text based data
services, all of which operated in text mode.

>> if it wasn't 80x24 or 132x24 of a fixed size amber or green letters, it
>> was a toy and they weren't interested.

Well, it was. There were terminal emulators (Versaterm) that did a
good job of dealing with text based terminal emulation, but no matter
how hard they tried, rendering of the characters on the Mac
Plus/SE/Classic display was ugly. The 3270 and 5250 mainframe
emulation was even worse. At the time, if you wanted a "business
machine", it had to be character based.

Apple also didn't seem to consider this a problem. At the time, they
were trying to create some level of product differentiation, which set
them apart from the rest of the market. If the Mac could do the same
things as a commodity PC, why would anyone want to buy a Mac at twice
the price? Apple considered the options and decided to emphasize the
graphics capabilities of the Mac, and let the business application
kinda flounder. Occasionally, there was a diversion into business
apps, such as A/UX and various servers, but basically it was superior
graphics that distinguished the Mac from the rest of the horde.

>Oh yeah, they insisted on amber (first choice) or green (reluctant second
>choice).

Yep. Computer users are VERY conservative and difficult to change. At
the time, there were 3 basic types of word processors. The mouse
driven variety, as exemplified by MacWrite, the function key driven
variety, as in WordPerfect, and the control-key flavor, as found in
Wordstar. I found that I could move a customer from one word
processor to another as long as I stayed within the interface that
they were familiar with using. However, moving from a keyboard
intensive word processor, to a mouse driven flavor, was almost
impossible.

Incidentally, I once found a surplus 9" CRT that was the same size as
the one in a Mac SE. Since I had a Mac SE with a broken tube (I
dropped it with the case off), I decided to try this CRT. When it was
finally running, it lit up green. Oops. So, I spent some time
twiddling with the CRT alignment magnets, cleaned it up, and presented
it to the owner. He liked it because he claimed the green background
was less "harsh" than the white background.

Speaking of conservative, I still use vi to edit my code. I still
can't debug well on the screen. I still print my programs and mark
the mistakes with a felt tip pen. I still use a blue background with
white letters for terminal emulation (IBM standard). It also took my
quite a bit of snarling on my assorted PDA's to stop using a pen, and
learn to use the iPod Touch style of finger poking. Old habits die
hard.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[nospam]

In article <2iq706dj0eehaq7d3jaq9o5le5us6almrd@4ax.com>, Jeff
Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

> Yep. Computer users are VERY conservative and difficult to change. At
> the time, there were 3 basic types of word processors. The mouse
> driven variety, as exemplified by MacWrite, the function key driven
> variety, as in WordPerfect, and the control-key flavor, as found in
> Wordstar. I found that I could move a customer from one word
> processor to another as long as I stayed within the interface that
> they were familiar with using. However, moving from a keyboard
> intensive word processor, to a mouse driven flavor, was almost
> impossible.

things never change. people have problems understanding the transition
from mouse/keyboard interfaces on a mac or pc to touch based interfaces
on an ipad.

mobile devices *will* be the future, whether it's an ipad or something
else.

[Michelle Steiner]

In article <2iq706dj0eehaq7d3jaq9o5le5us6almrd@4ax.com>,
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

> >Yup, and trying to sell Macs to people who had been told by "experts"
> >that they shouldn't buy any computer that didn't have at least an
> >80-column display was just that more difficult. I literally had to let
> >people count the characters across the screen.
>
> Yep, but that was when PC's had 12" or 14" screens, and the Mac Plus had
> a 9" screen. It was difficult to see 80 columns on such a small screen.
> There was also good business reasons for wanting 80x24 (actually 80x25
> if you included the status line). Many users were still logging into
> remote computers, mainframes, and text based data services, all of which
> operated in text mode.

Not the users I was selling to in a retail storefront.

> >> if it wasn't 80x24 or 132x24 of a fixed size amber or green letters,
> >> it was a toy and they weren't interested.
>
> Well, it was. There were terminal emulators (Versaterm) that did a good
> job of dealing with text based terminal emulation, but no matter how
> hard they tried, rendering of the characters on the Mac Plus/SE/Classic
> display was ugly. The 3270 and 5250 mainframe emulation was even worse.
> At the time, if you wanted a "business machine", it had to be character
> based.
>
> Apple also didn't seem to consider this a problem.

That's because that wasn't Apple's target market for the Macintosh.

> >Oh yeah, they insisted on amber (first choice) or green (reluctant
> >second choice).
>
> Yep. Computer users are VERY conservative and difficult to change.

Most of them were first-time buyers who had been told what to look for by
self-proclaimed "experts" or by computer magazines that published those
criteria before the Mac was introduced.

> At the time, there were 3 basic types of word processors. The mouse
> driven variety, as exemplified by MacWrite, the function key driven
> variety, as in WordPerfect, and the control-key flavor, as found in
> Wordstar.

And very few people know about the mouse to begin with. We had a display
that introduced the Mac; I can't tell you how many people picked up the
mouse, turned it over, and tried to use it as a trackball, even though the
monitor showed them how to use a mouse.

--
Check out the Hot Cocoa Party
<http://www.hotcocoaparty.info>

[nospam]

In article <michelle-D47B08.11394531052010@news.eternal-september.org>,
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> And very few people know about the mouse to begin with. We had a display
> that introduced the Mac; I can't tell you how many people picked up the
> mouse, turned it over, and tried to use it as a trackball, even though the
> monitor showed them how to use a mouse.

there were a bunch of studies where first time users held the mouse
with the cord coming out the back, by their wrist. it makes sense
keeping the cord less visible and out of the way, but it didn't work
very well.

[Thomas R. Kettler]

In article <michelle-D47B08.11394531052010@news.eternal-september.org>,
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> And very few people know about the mouse to begin with. We had a display
> that introduced the Mac; I can't tell you how many people picked up the
> mouse, turned it over, and tried to use it as a trackball, even though the
> monitor showed them how to use a mouse.

Did you see anyone try to use it as a foot treadle? I remember reading
that one but always wondered if it was just an urban myth.
--
Remove blown from email address to reply.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 31 May 2010 15:37:10 -0400, Kimmy Boyer <KimaBoyer@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I have a 3090 in my garage. No ****. Water cooled and all. No ****.

<http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP3090.html>
2 or 4 CPU's. 64/128 MBytes of local storage. 1/2" tape drives for
virtual memory. I couldn't find the total power consumption but it
must be plenty high. OK, I'm impressed.

Do your neighbors know that you keep dinosaurs in your garage? Why do
you keep this computing nightmare?



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Michelle Steiner]

In article
<tkettler-337192.16380531052010@reserved-multicast-range-not-delegated.exam
ple.com>,
"Thomas R. Kettler" <tkettler@blownfuse.net> wrote:

> > And very few people know about the mouse to begin with. We had a
> > display that introduced the Mac; I can't tell you how many people
> > picked up the mouse, turned it over, and tried to use it as a
> > trackball, even though the monitor showed them how to use a mouse.
>
> Did you see anyone try to use it as a foot treadle?

Nope; the cable wasn't long enough to reach the floor.

--
Check out the Hot Cocoa Party
<http://www.hotcocoaparty.info>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 31 May 2010 16:38:06 -0400, "Thomas R. Kettler"
<tkettler@blownfuse.net> wrote:

>In article <michelle-D47B08.11394531052010@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>
>> And very few people know about the mouse to begin with. We had a display
>> that introduced the Mac; I can't tell you how many people picked up the
>> mouse, turned it over, and tried to use it as a trackball, even though the
>> monitor showed them how to use a mouse.

>Did you see anyone try to use it as a foot treadle? I remember reading
>that one but always wondered if it was just an urban myth.

None of my customers did that, but some were tempted due to alleged
carpal tunnel syndrome and hand-eye coordination difficulties. The
ones that failed to use a mouse efficiently were the same ones that
had to look at their hands in order to type and in order to use a
mouse. It's not like this is unusual. Try going down a flight of
stairs with your eyes closed or NOT looking at your feet, for a
personalized example.

<http://www.footmouse.com>
<http://www.bilila.com/foot_mouse_slipper_mouse>

I was never plagued by first time computer users. I would usually
pickup customers that had done battle with their machines for a while,
run into problems, and got nowhere with their dealer. As always there
were horror stories, nonsense, and idiocy:
<http://www.LearnByDestroying.com/nooze/support.txt>
This from 1982 to about 1994. Lots of fond memories of nightmares
long past.

Incidentally, my favorite pointing device is a small lawn bowling ball
size (4.5" dia) trackball, as used by the military, FAA radar, and
Atari coin-op games. Almost infinite resolution and plenty of inertia
to spin the ball in the general direction, and then grab it when it's
close.

I also have several Prohance PowerMouse 100 conglomerations of a
keyboard and mouse.
<http://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/issue113/p08_reviews6_BUILDING_A_BETTER_MOUSE.php>
If you think 3 buttons is a bit much, try orchestrating 40 buttons.
(The bad news is that this mouse can't be used with anything later
than Win 3.1 due to the lack of a suitable driver).

Incidentally, I got a bit of a surprise when I plugged a 3 button PC
mouse into my antique Mac Cube running OS/X 10.4.xx. The right button
worked as expected (show options) as did the roller (scroll up/down).
This was a pleasant surprise after living with only one button for so
long. I know the new Apple Magic Mouse will act as a two button mouse
bit it's still nice to have the mouse act the same in both OS/X and
Windoze.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Dennis Ferguson]

On 2010-05-31, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 31 May 2010 15:37:10 -0400, Kimmy Boyer <KimaBoyer@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I have a 3090 in my garage. No ****. Water cooled and all. No ****.
>
><http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP3090.html>
> 2 or 4 CPU's. 64/128 MBytes of local storage. 1/2" tape drives for
> virtual memory. I couldn't find the total power consumption but it
> must be plenty high. OK, I'm impressed.

If I'm remembering correctly the IBM 3081 drew over 20 kW and required
just one of the 3089 motor generators. If that's right then the
2 or 4 3089s required for a 3090 might dim the lights a bit.

Dennis Ferguson

[Michelle Steiner]

In article <kk9806lb0pqmfkh6a3brvhfmf94js0inje@4ax.com>,
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

> Incidentally, I got a bit of a surprise when I plugged a 3 button PC
> mouse into my antique Mac Cube running OS/X 10.4.xx. The right button
> worked as expected (show options) as did the roller (scroll up/down).
> This was a pleasant surprise after living with only one button for so
> long.

Mac OS X has always supported two-button mice. Some earlier versions of
Mac OS also supported them as well.

--
Check out the Hot Cocoa Party
<http://www.hotcocoaparty.info>

[nospam]

In article <kk9806lb0pqmfkh6a3brvhfmf94js0inje@4ax.com>, Jeff
Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

> Incidentally, I got a bit of a surprise when I plugged a 3 button PC
> mouse into my antique Mac Cube running OS/X 10.4.xx. The right button
> worked as expected (show options) as did the roller (scroll up/down).
> This was a pleasant surprise after living with only one button for so
> long. I know the new Apple Magic Mouse will act as a two button mouse
> bit it's still nice to have the mouse act the same in both OS/X and
> Windoze.

multiple buttons have been supported by mac os since the early 1990s,
and contextual menus since the late 1980s. with usb, it's a non-issue.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 31 May 2010 15:21:08 -0700, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>In article <kk9806lb0pqmfkh6a3brvhfmf94js0inje@4ax.com>, Jeff
>Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>
>> Incidentally, I got a bit of a surprise when I plugged a 3 button PC
>> mouse into my antique Mac Cube running OS/X 10.4.xx. The right button
>> worked as expected (show options) as did the roller (scroll up/down).
>> This was a pleasant surprise after living with only one button for so
>> long. I know the new Apple Magic Mouse will act as a two button mouse
>> bit it's still nice to have the mouse act the same in both OS/X and
>> Windoze.

>multiple buttons have been supported by mac os since the early 1990s,
>and contextual menus since the late 1980s. with usb, it's a non-issue.

Ok, so why duz Apple continue to ship one button mice and laptops with
one button touchpads? Here's one theory:
<http://www.gearlive.com/index.php/news/article/why-apple-makes-a-one-buttoned-mouse-01280820/>

I've lost count of how many times some great idea gets shot down by
"The users don't need that feature. It will only confuse them". Of
course there's no consideration to the discovery that they're already
confused.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[nospam]

In article <j9h806psss6da5ltdgu40r4v8g309e1rm6@4ax.com>, Jeff
Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

> >multiple buttons have been supported by mac os since the early 1990s,
> >and contextual menus since the late 1980s. with usb, it's a non-issue.
>
> Ok, so why duz Apple continue to ship one button mice and laptops with
> one button touchpads?

they ship multi-button mice and trackpads, although they can be
considered zero button. :)

the mighty mouse (now called apple mouse) has four buttons and the
magic mouse has two and a touchpad with gestures. the laptop trackpads
are multitouch and you can set up an area for secondary click, or just
use the control key with *any* mouse (and that goes back for over a
decade, maybe even two). some apps used to use the command key to get a
contextual menu, long, long ago.

> Here's one theory:
>
> <http://www.gearlive.com/index.php/ne...-one-buttoned-
> mouse-01280820/>
>
> I've lost count of how many times some great idea gets shot down by
> "The users don't need that feature. It will only confuse them". Of
> course there's no consideration to the discovery that they're already
> confused.

most people (not geeks) find multi-button mice confusing. even when
multi-button mice were available in the 90s, few people bothered.

plus, how many buttons are best? some like two, some want a wheel and
others hate the wheel. some want 4-5 buttons or even more. apple ships
a functional mouse and the user can decide to replace it if they want.

mac os has always been designed around one button. there is no need for
a second (or third) button as there is with other operating systems.
it's a convenience (sometimes).

[Michelle Steiner]

In article <j9h806psss6da5ltdgu40r4v8g309e1rm6@4ax.com>,
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

> Ok, so why duz Apple continue to ship one button mice and laptops with
> one button touchpads?

Apple hasn't shipped a one-button mouse five years.

Apple's touch pad doesn't have any buttons; the touch pad itself acts as a
button. One finger for the left button; two fingers for the right. For
that matter, it can sense up to five fingers.

> Here's one theory:

That article is almost five years old; it has been overtaken by reality.

--
Check out the Hot Cocoa Party
<http://www.hotcocoaparty.info>

[Jolly Roger]

In article <j9h806psss6da5ltdgu40r4v8g309e1rm6@4ax.com>,
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 31 May 2010 15:21:08 -0700, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <kk9806lb0pqmfkh6a3brvhfmf94js0inje@4ax.com>, Jeff
> >Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Incidentally, I got a bit of a surprise when I plugged a 3 button PC
> >> mouse into my antique Mac Cube running OS/X 10.4.xx. The right button
> >> worked as expected (show options) as did the roller (scroll up/down).
> >> This was a pleasant surprise after living with only one button for so
> >> long. I know the new Apple Magic Mouse will act as a two button mouse
> >> bit it's still nice to have the mouse act the same in both OS/X and
> >> Windoze.
>
> >multiple buttons have been supported by mac os since the early 1990s,
> >and contextual menus since the late 1980s. with usb, it's a non-issue.
>
> Ok, so why duz Apple continue to ship one button mice and laptops with
> one button touchpads? Here's one theory:
> <http://www.gearlive.com/index.php/ne...a-one-buttoned
> -mouse-01280820/>
>
> I've lost count of how many times some great idea gets shot down by
> "The users don't need that feature. It will only confuse them". Of
> course there's no consideration to the discovery that they're already
> confused.

Apple hasn't shipped a single-button mouse for a long time. And Mac OS
has supported right-click functionality for ages.

--
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JR

[Elmo P. Shagnasty]

In article <j9h806psss6da5ltdgu40r4v8g309e1rm6@4ax.com>,
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

> >multiple buttons have been supported by mac os since the early 1990s,
> >and contextual menus since the late 1980s. with usb, it's a non-issue.
>
> Ok, so why duz Apple continue to ship one button mice and laptops with
> one button touchpads? Here's one theory:
> <http://www.gearlive.com/index.php/ne...a-one-buttoned
> -mouse-01280820/>

a) they don't ship ANY one button mice anymore;

b) their touchpads are far superior to anything else on the market; once
you've done it their way, you wonder how Dell gets away with the crap
they sell. Putting down two fingers and clicking, or two fingers and
scrolling, is incredibly natural--and the way Apple's trackpads are
built, nothing else compares.

[Your Name]

In article <michelle-FA0D59.15112831052010@news.eternal-september.org>,
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <kk9806lb0pqmfkh6a3brvhfmf94js0inje@4ax.com>,
> Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>
> > Incidentally, I got a bit of a surprise when I plugged a 3 button PC
> > mouse into my antique Mac Cube running OS/X 10.4.xx. The right button
> > worked as expected (show options) as did the roller (scroll up/down).
> > This was a pleasant surprise after living with only one button for so
> > long.
>
> Mac OS X has always supported two-button mice. Some earlier versions of
> Mac OS also supported them as well.

Any Mac could probably support a two / multi-button mouse if the company
selling the device wanted to write driver software ... but the point is
that the Mac doesn't need a two button mouse. Personally I very rarely had
any need for more than one button.

[nospam]

In article
<your.name-0106101357580001@203-109-168-122.dial.dyn.ihug.co.nz>, Your
Name <your.name@isp.com> wrote:

> Any Mac could probably support a two / multi-button mouse if the company
> selling the device wanted to write driver software ... but the point is
> that the Mac doesn't need a two button mouse. Personally I very rarely had
> any need for more than one button.

no drivers are needed with any usb standard mouse.

it's the mice with zillions of buttons that require a driver, and there
are at least two third party mac drivers already (not from any mouse
maker), which support pretty much anything that exists, including all
sorts of custom functions that even the manufacturers don't offer.

[Your Name]

In article <j9h806psss6da5ltdgu40r4v8g309e1rm6@4ax.com>, Jeff Liebermann
<jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 31 May 2010 15:21:08 -0700, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <kk9806lb0pqmfkh6a3brvhfmf94js0inje@4ax.com>, Jeff
> >Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Incidentally, I got a bit of a surprise when I plugged a 3 button PC
> >> mouse into my antique Mac Cube running OS/X 10.4.xx. The right button
> >> worked as expected (show options) as did the roller (scroll up/down).
> >> This was a pleasant surprise after living with only one button for so
> >> long. I know the new Apple Magic Mouse will act as a two button mouse
> >> bit it's still nice to have the mouse act the same in both OS/X and
> >> Windoze.
>
> >multiple buttons have been supported by mac os since the early 1990s,
> >and contextual menus since the late 1980s. with usb, it's a non-issue.
>
> Ok, so why duz Apple continue to ship one button mice and laptops with
> one button touchpads? Here's one theory:
>
<http://www.gearlive.com/index.php/news/article/why-apple-makes-a-one-buttoned-mouse-01280820/>
>
> I've lost count of how many times some great idea gets shot down by
> "The users don't need that feature. It will only confuse them". Of
> course there's no consideration to the discovery that they're already
> confused.

Apple started shipping a multi-button mouse with the Mighty Mouse and now
the Magic Mouse ... but the Mac doesn't actually NEED a multi-button
mouse, unlike Windows where some functions can only be accessed via
contextual menus.

[nospam]

In article
<your.name-0106101402460001@203-109-168-122.dial.dyn.ihug.co.nz>, Your
Name <your.name@isp.com> wrote:

> Not only that, but the multi-button mice can be {beep}ingly annoying. The
> first thing I do when setting up any new Mac is turn off the extra
> buttons. Personally I find the "squeeze" button of the Mighty Mouse
> especially annoying, continually "going off" when I don't want it to just
> because I'm moviing the mouse around.

one thing they did right on the magic mouse is remove the side buttons.
those falsed all the time. unfortunately, the shape of the magic mouse
is not very comfortable, at least for me.