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Thread: What will the newly passed Healthcare reform mean?

  1. #41
    Moderator David's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarahnn View Post
    What I meant is that man does not give you those rights. They are yours when you are born, and have to be protected and defended.

    Are you saying that the reason why we decided to become a sovereign nation rather than be under the tyranny of King George is because we owned weapons?

    No one is arguing that. But, even that does not give us the right to oppress others. Even Moses knew that his people should be liberated.
    As an infant you have nothing. To believe otherwise, implies the "evils" of entitlement.

    Without the ability to take our freedom, we would be resigned to continue to live under British auspices.

    The rights you speak of are moral constructs. Although we may preach the constitutional or Judeo-Christian tenants of rights, in practice no small amount of social Darwinism underlies our actions. Might making right, permits the US to dictate our policies upon lesser powers.

    Mind you, I do not approve of it.

    Hell_Yes

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  2. #42
    Moderator David's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyT View Post
    Yes, everybody, at one time or another becomes ill, injured or worse. That's a fact that cannot be avoided. Such is Life. But at any given time, only about 20% of all of us are ill at the same time. And by "ill" I mean actual pgysical illness. This does not include ills such as, "I'm hungry and tired and don't feel like doing my chores."

    Yes, the body indeed does breakdown. After a certain age it breaks down more rapidly too. But general body breakdown can be somewhat controlled with a good diet and exercize. As well as regular needed maintenence of those things we so often tend to neglect. It's the individual's responsibility to maintain his body health.

    Nothing at all bad about deductables or health insurance. The concept is fine. All I'm saying is that health insurance/healthcare cannot be enforced. It won't work if enforced and the system will fail.
    TonyT,

    Past a certain age, many exist on a regimen of medications, the chronically ill. We already understand each other's perspectives with that regard . Sure, some of it is diet. Much is also environment.

    Enforcement..... the wording is what troubles so many.

    Hell_Yes

    Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca

    "Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov

    It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche

  3. #43
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarahnn View Post
    I was referring to three rights mentioned in the Preamble to our Constitution.

    Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, among others.

    Worthy of a discussion by itself. Sad that we've legislated in so many ways what constitutes life.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  4. #44
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David View Post
    TonyT,

    Past a certain age, many exist on a regimen of medications, the chronically ill. We already understand each other's perspectives with that regard . Sure, some of it is diet. Much is also environment.

    Enforcement..... the wording is what troubles so many.
    Enforcement at what level of government? Think of it in terms of federalism. From my many travels abroad, I can say that Pashtun tribal law has more in common with federalism than our current government.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by David View Post
    As an infant you have nothing. To believe otherwise, implies the "evils" of entitlement.
    Maybe to you it does. But to me, I am here to protect and teach that new born to be independent, because I expect that for myself. I'd rather die than to accept bondage just because I was born into it. . It is contrary to the human spirit.

    Without the ability to take our freedom, we would be resigned to continue to live under British auspices.
    True but having the ability to do so is not the reason why we do it.

    The rights you speak of are moral constructs.
    They are bigger than moral constructs. The rights I speak of is in the nature of man to be free. It is the strength of eons of evolution that made man migrators to survive. We have always been free unless we are oppressed. And those who are oppressed do not settle for it. It's not in man's nature.

    Although we may preach the constitutional or Judeo-Christian tenants of rights, in practice no small amount of social Darwinism underlies our actions. Might making right, permits the US to dictate our policies upon lesser powers.
    If you match the power the U.S. has to conquer and destroy to the amount of policies we have dictated to foreign countries, you will see that the gap is so enormous, it makes your statement a total fabrication of a biased mind.

    Mind you, I do not approve of it.
    Obama does.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by JawZ View Post
    Worthy of a discussion by itself. Sad that we've legislated in so many ways what constitutes life.
    Are you referring to the abortion issue?

  7. #47
    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyT View Post
    Phoenetians
    Egyptian
    Greece
    Rome (after falling, was followed by many hundreds of years of little cultural progress)
    are the main civilizations we've had.

    They all fell and decayed for the same reasons, man's inhumanity to man and man's immoral practices. During their last years (spanning about 30-50 years) they all had rising crime, debauchery, crooked politicians, failing edu, war as a solution, promiscuity and worse, criminal leaders.

    Study your history. But don't go by the history books or the courses/propaganda they teach you in schools, go to a library and or read Will Durant. Don't for one minute think that another Dark Ages is not possible, it is, and worse. Atomic weapons and bio weapons would ensure that.

    "They all fell and decayed for the same reasons, man's inhumanity to man and man's immoral practices. During their last years (spanning about 30-50 years) they all had rising crime, debauchery, crooked politicians, failing edu, war as a solution, promiscuity and worse, criminal leaders.
    "


    War as a solution? That is how many societies endured back then. The society that was best at war was the one that lived and sometimes the internal moral structure had little to nothing to do with, the civilization just fell because it was weaker. Heck sometimes a civilization even thrived or declined due to commerce (such as the discovery of a silver mine). You are over simplifying it, Tony, it is much more complex. Also, morality thousands of years ago had such a radically different meaning then how we would consider it today. Not only that but there would be ethical relative elements considering the specific era and culture.

    Yes, ethics of the culture does play a role, but they lived in such a hostile world, not just in war but as well as plagues and famine. The challenges that Americans face today are greatly different to the challenges they faced back then.

    These are two radically different worlds, Tony, sure you can understand constants in human by looking at history and perhaps learn a few thing, some stuff may be even be completely relevant today. But modern and ancient are vastly different and many things worked differently back then and would not make a proper comparisons, especially in concerns to health-care.
    Last edited by jeremyboycool; 03-26-10 at 03:09 AM.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Stephen Hawking

  8. #48
    Elite Member TonyT's Avatar
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    War as a solution? That is how many societies endured back then. The society that was best at war was the one that lived and sometimes the internal moral structure had little to nothing to do with, the civilization just fell because it was weaker. Heck sometimes a civilization even thrived or declined due to commerce (such as the discovery of a silver mine). You are over simplifying it, Tony, it is much more complex. Also, morality thousands of years ago had such a radically different meaning then how we would consider it today. Not only that but there would be ethical relative elements considering the specific era and culture.
    What do ypu mean "back then"? War is common today too. Morality then and now is pretty much the same. There are certain things that have always been known as detrimental to a society, as I mentioned earliert, and they were known back then as they are known now.
    Yes, ethics of the culture does play a role, but they lived in such a hostile world, not just in war but as well as plagues and famine. The challenges that Americans face today are greatly different to the challenges they faced back then. .

    These are two radically different worlds, Tony, sure you can understand constants in human by looking at history and perhaps learn a few thing, some stuff may be even be completely relevant today. But modern and ancient are vastly different and many things worked differently back then and would not make a proper comparisons, especially in concerns to health-care.
    I think you still need a good history study.

    By civilization is meant "an advanced state of human society, in which a high level of culture, science, industry, and government has been reached. "

    This is a relative term. High levels of the above had been reached, as compared to what existed priorly.

    Yes, Life was harder in earlier civilizations, but man was a whole lot tougher too. The challenges we face today are the same challenges that man has always faced: food, shelter, protection from hostile environments, disease, evils of man himself, ecoonomic hardship, etc.

    The suppressors are the same, the methods of the suppressors have changes slightly. Man no longer need fear being eaten by beast, but today's beasts may be microscopic.

    Man's greatest enemy has always been himself.
    No one has any right to force data on you
    and command you to believe it or else.
    If it is not true for you, it isn't true.

    LRH

  9. #49
    Moderator David's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarahnn View Post
    Maybe to you it does. But to me, I am here to protect and teach that new born to be independent, because I expect that for myself. I'd rather die than to accept bondage just because I was born into it. . It is contrary to the human spirit.
    The newborn is a tabula rasa, it is being taught.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarahnn View Post
    True but having the ability to do so is not the reason why we do it.
    Why we did it....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarahnn View Post
    They are bigger than moral constructs. The rights I speak of is in the nature of man to be free. It is the strength of eons of evolution that made man migrators to survive. We have always been free unless we are oppressed. And those who are oppressed do not settle for it. It's not in man's nature.
    There is in nature, a proclivity for all things to press boundaries. It is through domestication and imprinting that certain tendencies may be ablated.
    The oppressed DO settle into their roles, through force or by subtlety. All too often, we are not mindful of these restrictions... After all, much of it is taught morality...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarahnn View Post
    If you match the power the U.S. has to conquer and destroy to the amount of policies we have dictated to foreign countries, you will see that the gap is so enormous, it makes your statement a total fabrication of a biased mind.
    Would you like a case by case for each country south of the Rio Grande? Our military and financial hegemony, like that of the British not long ago has permitted us to shape the world. No, we did/do not destroy all that oppose us.
    I kindly ask that you curb your ad hominem.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sarahnn View Post
    Obama does.
    Obama has been attempting to keep a campaign promise. One that put him in the White House.
    Last edited by David; 03-26-10 at 07:18 AM.

    Hell_Yes

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    "Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov

    It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche

  10. #50
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    Clearly, we see things very differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by David View Post
    The newborn is a tabula rasa, it is being taught.
    The tabla rasa theory has never been proven. It is only one theory on the table. We are learning new things every day about the brain and how it may not be the only part of what makes cognizance, but relies on other parts of the body to function. I used to accept the blank slate theory. It made perfect sense to me. Now I'm not so sure.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sarahnn View Post
    They are bigger than moral constructs. The rights I speak of is in the nature of man to be free. It is the strength of eons of evolution that made man migrators to survive. We have always been free unless we are oppressed. And those who are oppressed do not settle for it. It's not in man's nature.
    There is in nature, a proclivity for all things to press boundaries.
    Not for the sake of pressing boundries. There is no reward in that.
    It is through domestication and imprinting that certain tendencies may be ablated.
    We are a product of our cultures but have not lost our natural urges. In fact, all cultures reflect man's most basic needs, fears and drives. We aren't that domestic, in my opinion, simply subliminal.


    The oppressed DO settle into their roles, through force or by subtlety. All too often, we are not mindful of these restrictions... After all, much of it is taught morality...
    I just can't agree with that. The oppressed tolerate their roles. But when they know there is something better for them and their children, their tolerance becomes patience and there is hope within them to break free of oppression.



    Would you like a case by case for each country south of the Rio Grande?
    The geographic location means nothing. It would be the culture that has the influence. So, no.

    I kindly ask that you curb your ad hominem.
    That you are biased? You said, Might making right, permits the US to dictate our policies upon lesser powers.

    Why would you single out the United States, in this global community as a country that dictates its policies on other countries? It's just not true. America's greatest allies exemplify our ideology.

    Obama has been attempting to keep a campaign promise. One that put him in the White House.
    So was Bush.
    Last edited by Sarahnn; 03-26-10 at 07:42 AM.

  11. #51
    Moderator David's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarahnn View Post
    Clearly, we see things very differently.
    Perhaps. We also have many more important things in common.

    Be well,
    david

    Hell_Yes

    Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca

    "Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov

    It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche

  12. #52
    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyT View Post
    What do ypu mean "back then"? War is common today too. Morality then and now is pretty much the same. There are certain things that have always been known as detrimental to a society, as I mentioned earliert, and they were known back then as they are known now.


    I think you still need a good history study.

    By civilization is meant "an advanced state of human society, in which a high level of culture, science, industry, and government has been reached. "

    This is a relative term. High levels of the above had been reached, as compared to what existed priorly.

    Yes, Life was harder in earlier civilizations, but man was a whole lot tougher too. The challenges we face today are the same challenges that man has always faced: food, shelter, protection from hostile environments, disease, evils of man himself, ecoonomic hardship, etc.

    The suppressors are the same, the methods of the suppressors have changes slightly. Man no longer need fear being eaten by beast, but today's beasts may be microscopic.

    Man's greatest enemy has always been himself.
    "War is common today too."

    Yes, war is common today but the type of war we face is not the same as ancient war. Maybe some of the smaller nations in the current more hostile parts of the world but certainly not Americans. Nobody is going to come running through America and kill every male, burn all the the buildings and sell all the women and children into slavery. The logistics of it are just not the same, Tony.

    "Morality then and now is pretty much the same."

    Yes, we also like to throw deformed babies off a cliff because they'll only slow us down. There are universals in morality but a good part of it is relative.


    "By civilization is meant "an advanced state of human society, in which a high level of culture, science, industry, and government has been reached. "

    This is a relative term. High levels of the above had been reached, as compared to what existed priorly."


    Yes, civilizations of today are different then the ones in the ancient world. Which of course was part of my point.


    "Yes, Life was harder in earlier civilizations, but man was a whole lot tougher too. The challenges we face today are the same challenges that man has always faced: food, shelter, protection from hostile environments, disease, evils of man himself, ecoonomic hardship, etc"

    I have never had much problems with food, shelter, protection from hostile environments or disease. Modern technology goes a long way in making this much easier.

    As far as evil, well so far we have not had the ruling class run through my village killing peasants because our number are growing to threatening levels. Now, by American standards I may be poor but that does not mean I face economic hardship like even some people in the world today face. The common class of America lives in a much higher state of luxury then the common class of the ancient world. Not to mention, most of us don't have to work from sunrise to sunset just to make a simple living.

    Yes, all these are central to our concerns as it was to people in the ancient world, but things are much, much different today.
    Last edited by jeremyboycool; 03-26-10 at 12:26 PM.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Stephen Hawking

  13. #53
    Elite Member TonyT's Avatar
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    As far as evil, well so far we have not had the ruling class run through my village killing peasants because our number are growing to threatening levels. Now, by American standards I may be poor but that does not mean I face economic hardship like even some people in the world today face. The common class of America lives in a much higher state of luxury then the common class of the ancient world. Not to mention, most of us don't have to work from sunrise to sunset just to make a simple living.

    Yes, all these are central to our concerns as it was to people in the ancient world, but things are much, much different today.
    Yes, there's less threat in the USA of attack by foreign forces, but we live with a small threat daily. In EU, people live with that threat every day, not knowing if the bus they are on will blow up, or a storefront explode as you walk by it.

    And today all it takes is the push of a button, so to speak, to obliterate the entire world. Not to mention bio weapons.

    The real difference today is that the color bar & class system has been eradicated in most of the world. No more royals and serfs, but that concept still lives on in newer names.

    We have a larger middle class today. Most of the people who belong to it are asleep at the wheel, too frightened to rock the boat.

    But I assure you that our lives today are being managed by a ruling class, they just don't call themselves kings and queens.

    In our world today it's easy to forget about the threats we live with. Take a llok at any newspaper or news rag. It's filled with nothing but crime, war, threats, immorality, non-survival activites, etc.

    These things just don't randomly occur, they are caused. By who? By people, that's who. Take a trip to a few impoverished nations and you'll see that things are far worse than the media lets on. My friend, this society is on it's way out unless man as a whole wakes up from his complacent sleep.
    No one has any right to force data on you
    and command you to believe it or else.
    If it is not true for you, it isn't true.

    LRH

  14. #54
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarahnn View Post
    Are you referring to the abortion issue?

    No. I thought your post would be a good discussion as a whole. It's a good topic.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  15. #55
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Health Reform Subsidy Calculator -- Premium Assistance for Coverage in Exchanges/Gateways

    http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  16. #56
    Insomniac Mutch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarahnn View Post
    He calls it health care, but there is nothing caring about what Obama just did to the American people. He confiscated our means to take care of ourselves without government intervention.

    When the government has the power to determine how you will fight illness; and when the government tells you under which conditions they will help you, or fine you, your life is in the governments hands.

    A government that controls it's people's health will have to make life and death decisions whether you think so or not.

    Our Preamble to the Declaration of Independence may say we have the right to Life, but the government will now decide when, where and how through beaurocratic red tape and fines.

    Who are these 32 million people who would want this?
    One funny thing I got out of this post.

    The whole government speal about how they help you to control your illness.. Have you ever looked at a Paramedic scope of practice, or ALS, BLS standards?

    Of course your government controls it.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutch View Post
    One funny thing I got out of this post.

    The whole government speal about how they help you to control your illness.. Have you ever looked at a Paramedic scope of practice, or ALS, BLS standards?

    Of course your government controls it.
    I'm not sure what you are saying here.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by David View Post
    Perhaps. We also have many more important things in common.

    Be well,
    david
    Thanks, David. You too.

  19. #59
    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyT View Post
    Yes, there's less threat in the USA of attack by foreign forces, but we live with a small threat daily. In EU, people live with that threat every day, not knowing if the bus they are on will blow up, or a storefront explode as you walk by it.

    And today all it takes is the push of a button, so to speak, to obliterate the entire world. Not to mention bio weapons.

    The real difference today is that the color bar & class system has been eradicated in most of the world. No more royals and serfs, but that concept still lives on in newer names.

    We have a larger middle class today. Most of the people who belong to it are asleep at the wheel, too frightened to rock the boat.

    But I assure you that our lives today are being managed by a ruling class, they just don't call themselves kings and queens.

    In our world today it's easy to forget about the threats we live with. Take a llok at any newspaper or news rag. It's filled with nothing but crime, war, threats, immorality, non-survival activites, etc.

    These things just don't randomly occur, they are caused. By who? By people, that's who. Take a trip to a few impoverished nations and you'll see that things are far worse than the media lets on. My friend, this society is on it's way out unless man as a whole wakes up from his complacent sleep.
    "Take a llok at any newspaper or news rag. It's filled with nothing but crime, war, threats, immorality, non-survival activites, etc."

    I know they are and that is why I don't pay them much mind. What the papers offer is only a superficial glance; in order to penetrate deeply and come to an actual understanding it requires study of various different topics.

    "These things just don't randomly occur, they are caused. By who? By people, that's who. "

    Yes, Tony, I know human actions comes from people.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Stephen Hawking

  20. #60
    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David View Post
    As an infant you have nothing. To believe otherwise, implies the "evils" of entitlement.

    Without the ability to take our freedom, we would be resigned to continue to live under British auspices.

    The rights you speak of are moral constructs. Although we may preach the constitutional or Judeo-Christian tenants of rights, in practice no small amount of social Darwinism underlies our actions. Might making right, permits the US to dictate our policies upon lesser powers.

    Mind you, I do not approve of it.
    "The rights you speak of are moral constructs."

    And if not from the human soul where did these moral constructs come from? Humans are naturally moral by simply being intelligent and compassionate. Also we are clearly innately social or else we have never formed societies.

    Everyone is born with power and the freedom to do that which is in their power to do. Might is not the only thing that gives you power, the mind can do that as well.
    Last edited by jeremyboycool; 03-27-10 at 12:52 PM.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Stephen Hawking

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