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Thread: ˇÿˇ‡ - That hardly needs more of an introduction! Why does it happen?

  1. #1
    ~BD~
    Guest

    ˇÿˇ‡ - That hardly needs more of an introduction! Why does it happen?

    Hi

    In my never ending quest for knowledge, and with a view to helping a
    poster called Aardvark, I saved a photograph to my desktop which I had
    obtained by opening this link (which had been posted in another newsgroup)
    http://media.nj.com/star-ledger/phot...m_665xauto.jpg

    I then opened it using a software App. called Pages, part of the Apple
    iWork addition - basically a text editor. I've done such things many
    times in the past using Microsoft's inbuilt Notepad facility.

    Before all the normal gobbledegook I had expected there was some
    information which seemed to have details of when the photograph was
    taken. The first part of this I 'copied' - and then pasted it into a
    Usenet test group (not the one I call 'mine!). I could see it on my
    screen just as I had expected. I clicked 'send'. Shortly afterwards my
    post appeared in the alt.test newsgroup - but instead of seeing that
    which I had posted, all one can now see is ˇÿˇ‡

    Then I took a screenshot of what I could see in my Pages programme and
    uploaded same to TinyPics.

    There must be someone amongst guys here who recognises the 'characters'
    which may be seen here: http://i46.tinypic.com/153ras9.jpg

    My question:-

    Does anyone know *why* I can copy and paste the info. shown in that
    TinyPic *into* a Usenet newsgroup (Using Thunderbird 3) but the
    *output*, once processed, is reduced to just " ˇÿˇ‡" ?


    --
    Dave (Sometimes man stumbles over the truth ...... Sir Winston Churchill)



  2. #2
    Ant
    Guest

    Re: ?ÿ?? - That hardly needs more of an introduction! Why does it happen?

    "~BD~" wrote:

    > Does anyone know *why* I can copy and paste the info. shown in that
    > TinyPic *into* a Usenet newsgroup (Using Thunderbird 3) but the
    > *output*, once processed, is reduced to just " ?ÿ?? " ?


    When you do something silly like pasting binary data into an app
    (Thunderbird) that expects text you're going to get strange results.
    Don't do it. If you want the textual info from a JPEG use something
    that is capaple of showing you that EXIF or IPTC metadata or copy only
    the ASCII text you see in your text editor.

    The reason why you got truncated output is probably because the
    clipboard stoppped pasting (or Thunderbird stopped accepting) input
    after the first null (zero) byte, expecting that binary data from the
    JPEG to be a null terminated string.

    By the way, the date stamp shown is: 2010:01:14 19:03:47

    What does this have to do with computer security?



  3. #3
    Mike Easter
    Guest

    Re: ˇÿˇ‡ - That hardly needs more of an introduction! Why does it happen?

    a.c.s only

    ~BD~ wrote:

    > I saved a photograph


    > I then opened it using a software App. called Pages, part of the Apple
    > iWork addition - basically a text editor.


    If you are going to be opening/inspecting binary files (the innards),
    you should be doing it with something like a hex editor

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hex_editor

    I'm not familiar with the functionality of various or such mac apps.

    > times in the past using Microsoft's inbuilt Notepad facility.


    Notepad is not a useful hex editor. It is a very simple text editor.

    > details of when the photograph was
    > taken.


    A nice hex editor makes it very simple to find readable ascii in binary
    data. You could also copy and paste more easily.

    > pasted it into a
    > Usenet test group


    Don't be doing that with your newsreader. On some forms of silliness
    you would do better to take a picture/screenshot of something and put it
    somewhere appropriate for binaries and paste a link to it.


    --
    Mike Easter

  4. #4
    Mike Easter
    Guest

    Re: ˇÿˇ‡ - That hardly needs more of an introduction! Why does it happen?

    Mike Easter wrote:
    > ~BD~ wrote:


    > If you are going to be opening/inspecting binary files (the innards),
    > you should be doing it with something like a hex editor


    >> Before all the normal gobbledegook I had expected there was some
    >> information which seemed to have details of when the photograph was
    >> taken.


    The binary had all this ascii embedded:

    Virginia Cary, of Cleveland, Tenn. is comforted by workers as she tries
    to return to the US at the Toussaint Louverture international airport in
    Port-au-Prince, Haiti, Thursday, Jan. 14, 2010. Cary, 81, said she was
    riding in a vehicle that was hit by a falling wall when a 7.0-magnitude
    earthquake struck Haiti Tuesday. Cary was complaining of chest pains.
    (AP Photo/Lynne Sladky) Adobe Photoshop CS3 Macintosh 2010:01:14 19:03:47


    --
    Mike Easter

  5. #5
    ~BD~
    Guest

    Re: ˇÿˇ‡ - That hardly needs more of an introduction! Why does it happen?

    On 16/01/2010 20:52, Mike Easter wrote:
    > Mike Easter wrote:
    >> ~BD~ wrote:

    >
    >> If you are going to be opening/inspecting binary files (the innards),
    >> you should be doing it with something like a hex editor

    >
    >>> Before all the normal gobbledegook I had expected there was some
    >>> information which seemed to have details of when the photograph was
    >>> taken.

    >
    > The binary had all this ascii embedded:
    >
    > Virginia Cary, of Cleveland, Tenn. is comforted by workers as she
    > tries to return to the US at the Toussaint Louverture international
    > airport in Port-au-Prince, Haiti, Thursday, Jan. 14, 2010. Cary, 81,
    > said she was riding in a vehicle that was hit by a falling wall when a
    > 7.0-magnitude earthquake struck Haiti Tuesday. Cary was complaining of
    > chest pains. (AP Photo/Lynne Sladky) Adobe Photoshop CS3 Macintosh
    > 2010:01:14 19:03:47
    >
    >

    You are a first class sleuth are you not, Mike! Well done!

    You no doubt looked at the screenshot which I *did* take :
    http://i46.tinypic.com/153ras9.jpg

    Are you able to tell me what the significance is of the small square
    boxes, within which are numbers and a few letters too?

    --
    Dave (Sometimes man stumbles over the truth ...... Sir Winston Churchill)

  6. #6
    Mike Easter
    Guest

    Re: ˇÿˇ‡ - That hardly needs more of an introduction! Why does it happen?

    ~BD~ wrote:
    > Mike Easter wrote:


    >>> If you are going to be opening/inspecting binary files (the innards),
    >>> you should be doing it with something like a hex editor


    Notice what it says up here. Hex editor.

    > You no doubt looked at the screenshot which I *did* take :
    > http://i46.tinypic.com/153ras9.jpg


    That is not a useful display, except that you can see the ascii.
    Research what the mac has available for you for freeware hex viewer or
    editor.

    > Are you able to tell me what the significance is of the small square
    > boxes, within which are numbers and a few letters too?


    You are trying to drive a nail with a screwdriver. There is very little
    you can do with your text editor and a binary file. The viewer you are
    using is not designed to give you useful information about the hex.

    A binary file cannot be 'interpreted' accurately with a text editor;
    that is, your text editor doesn't know what to do with the display of
    the values not in its character set. In addition, when you try to paste
    something, you are using your clipboard's questionable ability and then
    when you ask your newsreader, you are trying out its questionable
    ability, and then next you have the situation about what your newsreader
    and the newsserer are going to be doing with 7 bit vs 8 bit (non)
    characters.

    <If you are going to play with this issue at all> Do what I told you.
    Read about hex editors in the wiki article. Then get some kind of hex
    editor, even a very simple one. I use a clunky hex editor in IrfanView
    sometimes to see some things, but I've used better.

    I actually extracted that ascii not with a hex editor; but if you want
    to tinker with the inside of binaries -- this is the 2nd time you have
    tried to extract something crazy and paste it into a newsgroup -- it
    would be better to get a 'accurate' feeling for what goes on inside the
    binary file -- and what you are seeing isn't the 'reality' of the
    binary. The hex is closer to the reality.


    --
    Mike Easter

  7. #7
    ~BD~
    Guest

    Re: Ë?ÿË?â?¡ - That hardly needs more of an introduction! Why does it happen?

    On 16/01/2010 14:57, Ant wrote:
    > "~BD~" wrote:
    >
    >
    >> Does anyone know *why* I can copy and paste the info. shown in that
    >> TinyPic *into* a Usenet newsgroup (Using Thunderbird 3) but the
    >> *output*, once processed, is reduced to just " Ë?ÿË?â?¡ " ?
    >>

    > When you do something silly like pasting binary data into an app
    > (Thunderbird) that expects text you're going to get strange results.
    > Don't do it. If you want the textual info from a JPEG use something
    > that is capaple of showing you that EXIF or IPTC metadata or copy only
    > the ASCII text you see in your text editor.
    >


    Thanks for your comments, Ant

    > The reason why you got truncated output is probably because the
    > clipboard stoppped pasting (or Thunderbird stopped accepting) input
    > after the first null (zero) byte, expecting that binary data from the
    > JPEG to be a null terminated string.
    >


    Maybe I didn't make myself sufficiently clear. I copied onto my
    clipboard all the info shown in the
    TinyPic to which I linked. I went to 'alt.test' and pasted it into the
    message window and it 'took' correctly.
    On screen it looked as I had expected. It was only after *sending* the
    post that there was a (perceived)
    error. All that can be seen in the message window when the post was
    downloaded is ˇÿˇ‡ (not Ë?ÿË?â?¡)
    as showing *your* post!!!
    > By the way, the date stamp shown is: 2010:01:14 19:03:47
    >


    Correct, thank you.

    > What does this have to do with computer security?
    >


    Hopefully nothing, but I'm always looking for the 'unusual' since once I
    saw what, to me, looked like 'live'
    links (showing in blue) inside a jpg 'screenshot' file. The links
    'worked' and took me to URL's promoting
    Viagra and health products - typical SPAM. (I've been told that's
    impossible - yet I've seen it!)

    --
    Dave (Sometimes man stumbles over the truth ...... Sir Winston Churchill)


  8. #8
    ~BD~
    Guest

    Re: ˇÿˇ‡ - That hardly needs more of an introduction! Why does it happen?

    On 16/01/2010 20:14, Mike Easter wrote:
    > a.c.s only
    >
    > ~BD~ wrote:
    >
    >> I saved a photograph

    >
    >> I then opened it using a software App. called Pages, part of the
    >> Apple iWork addition - basically a text editor.


    I'm afraid I made a mistake. Although I did, indeed, try to open the
    photograph with Pages it was 'greyed out' and I couldn't do it.

    I actually used an inbuilt 'App' call TextEdit, and that's from whence
    the screenshot came! Sorry 'bout that!

    >
    > If you are going to be opening/inspecting binary files (the innards),
    > you should be doing it with something like a hex editor
    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hex_editor


    Hmmm! That takes me back a bit! My memory suitably refreshed. Thanks.

    >
    > I'm not familiar with the functionality of various or such mac apps.


    <nods head> Nor am I! ;) It's a big learning curve but I'm enjoying
    it! The local Apple shop does run training courses if I get too fed up,
    but I just *love* experimenting!

    My wife asked me the other day if I had a chemistry set as a child. Of
    course I did! By the time I was 15 I had a mini laboratory in our cellar!!

    >> times in the past using Microsoft's inbuilt Notepad facility.

    >
    > Notepad is not a useful hex editor. It is a very simple text editor.


    Agreed but it serves the purpose after a fashion. Try opening a
    photograph with it!

    >> details of when the photograph was taken.

    >
    > A nice hex editor makes it very simple to find readable ascii in
    > binary data. You could also copy and paste more easily.
    >
    >> pasted it into a Usenet test group

    >
    > Don't be doing that with your newsreader. On some forms of silliness
    > you would do better to take a picture/screenshot of something and put
    > it somewhere appropriate for binaries and paste a link to it.


    I'm getting better at doing screenshots - I suspect there is a more
    simple way than I'm tackling at present, but TinyPic seems to work quite
    well.

    Thank you again for bothering to comment!


    --
    Dave (Sometimes man stumbles over the truth ...... Sir Winston Churchill)

  9. #9
    Ant
    Guest

    Re: <?f¿<?â?¡ - That hardly needs more of an introduction! Why does it happen?

    "~BD~" wrote:

    > Ant wrote:
    >> The reason why you got truncated output is probably because the
    >> clipboard stoppped pasting (or Thunderbird stopped accepting) input
    >> after the first null (zero) byte, expecting that binary data from the
    >> JPEG to be a null terminated string.


    > Maybe I didn't make myself sufficiently clear.


    Clear enough that I understand what's going on.

    > I copied onto my clipboard all the info shown in the
    > TinyPic to which I linked. I went to 'alt.test' and pasted it into the
    > message window and it 'took' correctly.
    > On screen it looked as I had expected. It was only after *sending* the
    > post that there was a (perceived) error.


    What you saw in the message window was obviously not what got posted.
    Thunderbird would have to process that binary data to create a text
    message. As I implied, it's very likely that it stopped trying to make
    sense of it as characters after the first binary null (or pair of
    nulls since your reader seems to be interpreting them as unicode).

    > All that can be seen in the message window when the post was downloaded
    > is [junk characters] (not [different junk] as showing *your* post!!!


    I should have snipped/replaced those strings because they are not
    ASCII, so how your newsreader interprets them depends on the code
    page it's using.



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