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Thread: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and not combowifi) ?

  1. #1
    Sum Guy
    Guest

    Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and not combowifi) ?

    I see that there are some really cheap combo cards that do 802.11 B/G
    (not N) and also do Bluetooth. I've read where those cards are
    CPU-intensive (they have a DSP and make the computer's CPU do all the
    work - ??). They also don't use (or are not compatible with) Microsoft's
    Bluetooth stack (what-ever implications or consequences that has - I
    don't know).

    I was wondering if there was a good (high-performance, long-range)
    bluetooth-only PCI card?

    A card that is compatible with an external, high-gain antenna?

    And if I have to get a combo PCI card just to get bluetooth, is there at
    least a card that will do 802.11 N as well as bluetooth?

  2. #2
    LR
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and notcombo wifi) ?

    On 03/06/2009 14:26, Sum Guy wrote:
    > I see that there are some really cheap combo cards that do 802.11 B/G
    > (not N) and also do Bluetooth. I've read where those cards are
    > CPU-intensive (they have a DSP and make the computer's CPU do all the
    > work - ??). They also don't use (or are not compatible with) Microsoft's
    > Bluetooth stack (what-ever implications or consequences that has - I
    > don't know).


    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_stack>
    note:-"The Microsoft Windows Bluetooth stack only supports external or
    integrated Bluetooth dongles attached through USB. It does not support
    Bluetooth radio connections over PCI, IC, serial, PC Card or other
    interfaces."
    >
    > I was wondering if there was a good (high-performance, long-range)
    > bluetooth-only PCI card?


    Class 1 BT PCI cards are available but not cheap.
    <http://www.hantz.com/ASP/NewProducts/Produkte_3.asp?ProduktID=1031&CID=1#preis>
    Larger picture here but their English Translation is not working very well.
    <http://www.blueserial.com/pcicard_e.htm>

    You haven't said which OS you wish to use the device with.

  3. #3
    Sum Guy
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and notcombo wifi) ?

    LR wrote:

    > "The Microsoft Windows Bluetooth stack only supports external or
    > integrated Bluetooth dongles attached through USB. It does not
    > support Bluetooth radio connections over PCI, IC, serial,
    > PC Card or other interfaces."


    Are we talking about the tcp/ip stack here?

    Or is the bluetooth stack something different than the TCP/IP stack?

    And what, exactly, are the consequences of a PCI bluetooth card that
    can't run using Microsoft's bluetooth stack?

    > > I was wondering if there was a good (high-performance,
    > > long-range) bluetooth-only PCI card?

    >
    > Class 1 BT PCI cards are available but not cheap:


    Yea, I came across that exact item before I posted my original question
    here. I was wondering if there weren't more of those, perhaps with
    availability showing at some US retailers.

    > You haven't said which OS you wish to use the device with.


    Win-98 would be ideal, but I'd settle for XP.

  4. #4
    Peter Pan
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and not combo wifi) ?


    "Sum Guy" <Sum@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4A2679ED.6969A3F0@Guy.com...
    >I see that there are some really cheap combo cards that do 802.11 B/G
    > (not N) and also do Bluetooth. I've read where those cards are
    > CPU-intensive (they have a DSP and make the computer's CPU do all the
    > work - ??). They also don't use (or are not compatible with) Microsoft's
    > Bluetooth stack (what-ever implications or consequences that has - I
    > don't know).
    >
    > I was wondering if there was a good (high-performance, long-range)
    > bluetooth-only PCI card?
    >
    > A card that is compatible with an external, high-gain antenna?
    >
    > And if I have to get a combo PCI card just to get bluetooth, is there at
    > least a card that will do 802.11 N as well as bluetooth?


    I have to wonder, why BT via a pci card? (i have a BT usb dongle on the end
    of a usb extension cable/so it can be up higher than my pc, and a metal pie
    plate to block the signal so my next door neighbor can't glom on)

    in another post you mentioned you had win 98, don't think that had a bt
    stack anyway, so you may be stuck with plain old drivers... consider an el
    cheapo usb/pci card, usb exstension cables, and both BT and Wifi dongles...



  5. #5
    Sum Guy
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and notcombo wifi) ?

    Peter Pan wrote:

    > > I was wondering if there was a good (high-performance, long-range)
    > > bluetooth-only PCI card?
    > >
    > > A card that is compatible with an external, high-gain antenna?
    > >
    > > And if I have to get a combo PCI card just to get bluetooth, is
    > > there at least a card that will do 802.11 N as well as bluetooth?

    >
    > I have to wonder, why BT via a pci card?


    Because I want a long-range solution. I mentioned I wanted to use an
    external antenna to maximize the range. Are there any bluetooth usb
    dongles or transceivers that have external antenna jacks?

    I want to see how far I can receive signals from one (or more) very
    small bluetooth-capable GPS loggers.

    > in another post you mentioned you had win 98, don't think
    > that had a bt stack anyway,


    Yes, there are (or were) bluetooth drivers for win-98 for the bluetooth
    hardware that came in some laptops in 2004 (and probably for other
    years).

    The German-made PCI bluetooth card mention in the previous post has
    win-98 drivers (according to the specs).

  6. #6
    Peter Pan
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and not combo wifi) ?


    "Sum Guy" <Sum@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4A285339.172FB8B1@Guy.com...
    > Peter Pan wrote:
    >
    >> > I was wondering if there was a good (high-performance, long-range)
    >> > bluetooth-only PCI card?
    >> >
    >> > A card that is compatible with an external, high-gain antenna?
    >> >
    >> > And if I have to get a combo PCI card just to get bluetooth, is
    >> > there at least a card that will do 802.11 N as well as bluetooth?

    >>
    >> I have to wonder, why BT via a pci card?

    >
    > Because I want a long-range solution. I mentioned I wanted to use an
    > external antenna to maximize the range. Are there any bluetooth usb
    > dongles or transceivers that have external antenna jacks?
    >


    thats what doesn't make any sense, bt has limited range 30 or 100 meters) no
    matter what antenna you use (timing in the electronics limits how far a
    signal can travel before it's ignored, switches between xmit and receive),
    so if you want a long range solution why even consider bt in the first
    place?
    > I want to see how far I can receive signals from one (or more) very
    > small bluetooth-capable GPS loggers.


    >
    >> in another post you mentioned you had win 98, don't think
    >> that had a bt stack anyway,

    >
    > Yes, there are (or were) bluetooth drivers for win-98 for the bluetooth
    > hardware that came in some laptops in 2004 (and probably for other
    > years).
    >


    yes, bt stacks and drivers are two different things.... needed drivers for
    earlier windows, now the bt stack is built in, but some devices still
    have/use drivers...


    > The German-made PCI bluetooth card mention in the previous post has
    > win-98 drivers (according to the specs).


    there are some long range blutooth devices out there
    (http://longrangebluetooth.net/) but they are not cheap (strike 1), don't
    have win 98 drivers (strike 2), and are usb devices/not pci cards(strike
    3)...


  7. #7
    Sum Guy
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and notcombo wifi) ?

    Peter Pan wrote:

    > thats what doesn't make any sense, bt has limited range 30 or 100
    > meters) no matter what antenna you use (timing in the electronics
    > limits how far a signal can travel before it's ignored, switches
    > between xmit and receive), so if you want a long range solution
    > why even consider bt in the first place?
    >
    > there are some long range blutooth devices out there
    > (http://longrangebluetooth.net/) but they are not cheap (strike 1)


    $129 isin't bad

    > don't have win 98 drivers (strike 2)


    It's not uncommon for a device to state that it's not compatible with
    win-9x, but burried deep somewhere on it's driver CD will be a win-9x
    directory. But ok, maybe no win-98 driver.

    > and are usb devices/not pci cards(strike 3)...


    In this case, because it's larger than the tip of your thumb, and
    because it's designed to act like a long-range base station using a
    large external antenna, the fact that it's usb doesn't matter.

    But answer this. If Bluetooth is designed to *not* have a range
    exceeding 100 meters, then how can the above-mentioned device exist and
    function as advertized - with a range of at least a mile?

  8. #8
    Peter Pan
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and not combo wifi) ?


    "Sum Guy" <Sum@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4A291098.849F9DFF@Guy.com...
    > Peter Pan wrote:
    >
    >> thats what doesn't make any sense, bt has limited range 30 or 100
    >> meters) no matter what antenna you use (timing in the electronics
    >> limits how far a signal can travel before it's ignored, switches
    >> between xmit and receive), so if you want a long range solution
    >> why even consider bt in the first place?
    >>
    >> there are some long range blutooth devices out there
    >> (http://longrangebluetooth.net/) but they are not cheap (strike 1)

    >
    > $129 isin't bad
    >
    >> don't have win 98 drivers (strike 2)

    >
    > It's not uncommon for a device to state that it's not compatible with
    > win-9x, but burried deep somewhere on it's driver CD will be a win-9x
    > directory. But ok, maybe no win-98 driver.
    >
    >> and are usb devices/not pci cards(strike 3)...

    >
    > In this case, because it's larger than the tip of your thumb, and
    > because it's designed to act like a long-range base station using a
    > large external antenna, the fact that it's usb doesn't matter.
    >
    > But answer this. If Bluetooth is designed to *not* have a range
    > exceeding 100 meters, then how can the above-mentioned device exist and
    > function as advertized - with a range of at least a mile?


    it (bt) isn't a computer thing only.... bt ON/IN a computer is limited, not
    standalone bt stuff...
    as far as I can tell, it's actually a separate thing, the older model had a
    serial interface to bt, and the newer a usb to serial to bt.... at any rate,
    not a computer card/device, but a standalone device and not subject to
    limitations of computer cards (standard computer/personal stuff is
    designed/limited to 10 or 100 meters, designed for pan/headsets/speakers/etc
    ie personal things so doesn't need long range)

    you had asked about pci cards (see subject), that means they are (usually)
    internal, and subject to limitations for internal computer cards, once you
    get external boxes, the skys the limit



  9. #9
    Sum Guy
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and notcombo wifi) ?

    Peter Pan wrote:

    > it (bt) isn't a computer thing only.... bt ON/IN a computer is
    > limited, not standalone bt stuff...


    Your understanding is not correct.

    Blue tooth is a digital radio communication protocal. It doesn't matter
    if the electronics that is performing the radio communication is
    embedded in an external box, or on a PCI card, a thumb-sized USB stick,
    a pair of wireless headphones or a cell phone.

    It also doesn't matter how the radio transciever part of the device
    receives data, be it serial port, usb port, or PCI motherboard
    interface.

  10. #10
    TBerk
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and notcombo wifi) ?



    I'm jumping in here but the design for consumer products is Bluetooth
    = short range.

    It seems you want; bluetooth, long range, internal (pci), & cheap. I
    really don't think there is such a ting made.


    berk


  11. #11
    Sum Guy
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and notcombo wifi) ?

    TBerk wrote:

    > I'm jumping in here but the design for consumer products is
    > Bluetooth = short range.


    If I had two walkie-talkies, and they both had the same small antenna
    and the same low-power transmit circuit, then they'd have a short range.

    But if I took one of them and boosted the transmit power, AND gave it a
    huge antenna, then in theory I'd be able to extend the range even if one
    of them still had it's small antenna and weak transmitter.

    Same applies here to this bluetooth situation. If the PC's bluetooth
    radio had a strong transmit circuit, and if it had a large, high gain
    antenna, then it's transmit range and it's receive sensitivity would
    enable the communication range to be extended to typical, standard
    low-range bluetooth devices.

    > It seems you want; bluetooth, long range, internal (pci),
    > & cheap. I really don't think there is such a ting made.


    I only specified PCI because I didn't believe there was a USB solution
    that had an external antenna capability.

    But clearly since Microsoft's BT stack only supports USB, then that
    creates a preference for a USB solution over PCI from a software POV.
    Given that preference, one result is the high-power, long-range BT
    transceiver mentioned in the previous post
    (http://longrangebluetooth.net).

    $129 isin't so expensive if it means extending BT range from an anemic
    few dozen feet to potentially a few thousand feet.

  12. #12
    alexd
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and not combo wifi) ?

    Sum Guy wrote:

    > $129 isin't so expensive if it means extending BT range from an anemic
    > few dozen feet to potentially a few thousand feet.

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I think you're dreaming.

    --
    <http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEsNpEaTm@ale.cx)
    10:55:50 up 30 days, 15:13, 1 user, load average: 0.16, 0.15, 0.16
    A few flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction



  13. #13
    floffy
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and not combo wifi) ?

    On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:56:21 +0100, alexd <troffasky@hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    >Sum Guy wrote:
    >
    >> $129 isin't so expensive if it means extending BT range from an anemic
    >> few dozen feet to potentially a few thousand feet.

    > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    >I think you're dreaming.



  14. #14
    Sum Guy
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and notcombo wifi) ?

    alexd wrote:

    > > $129 isin't so expensive if it means extending BT range from
    > > an anemic few dozen feet to potentially a few thousand feet.

    > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    > I think you're dreaming.


    Tell me who's dreaming:

    =================================

    http://longrangebluetooth.net/

    AIRcable Host XR

    The only long-range (10 km-class) Bluetooth USB "Dongle"

    The AIRcable Host XR, equipped with an extremely-powerful,
    highly-sensitive Bluetooth transmitter, can achieve an unparalleled
    range of up to 30 km! With a 9 dBi omni-directional antenna, the
    extended range is up to 2 km, and with the 18 dBi directional antenna,
    it is up to 10 km.

    Additionally, given its high sensitivity, it can extend the range of
    weaker Bluetooth devices like cell phones and headsets by hundreds of
    meters. With most other devices only capable of obtaining a range of 10
    meters or less, no other Bluetooth device comes even close. Plus, this
    long-range Bluetooth transmitter connects to any computer with a
    Bluetooth connection and can handle virtually any Bluetooth profile
    available.

    Uses include standard data, streaming data, headsets communication (like
    Skype calls), and stereo headphone communication, amongst others.

    With the AIRcable Host XR you can extend the range of communication from
    your PC to other Bluetooth devices.

    The AIRcable Host XR's Bluetooth radio receiver is many times more
    sensitive than the average Bluetooth device. You can expect about a 10
    times more range than with other standard Bluetooth dongles.

  15. #15
    TBerk
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and notcombo wifi) ?

    On Jun 6, 6:07*am, Sum Guy <S...@Guy.com> wrote:

    <snip>
    >
    > The AIRcable Host XR's Bluetooth radio receiver is many times more
    > sensitive than the average Bluetooth device. You can expect about a 10
    > times more range than with other standard Bluetooth dongles.


    huh.

    OK, I'll look a little more into this to satisfy my own curiosity,
    good luck w/ that.


    berk

  16. #16
    alexd
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and not combo wifi) ?

    Sum Guy wrote:

    > alexd wrote:
    >
    >> > $129 isin't so expensive if it means extending BT range from
    >> > an anemic few dozen feet to potentially a few thousand feet.

    >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    >> I think you're dreaming.

    >
    > Tell me who's dreaming:


    <snip marketing material>

    You. You aren't going to get two orders of magnitude improvement in signal
    strength [or distance covered] by merely changing your Bluetooth dongle and
    antenna.

    --
    <http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEsNpEaTm@ale.cx)
    11:26:34 up 31 days, 15:48, 1 user, load average: 0.35, 0.22, 0.19
    A few flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction



  17. #17
    Sum Guy
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and notcombo wifi) ?

    alexd wrote:

    > >> I think you're dreaming.

    > >
    > > Tell me who's dreaming:

    >
    > http://longrangebluetooth.net/
    >
    > You. You aren't going to get two orders of magnitude improvement
    > in signal strength [or distance covered] by merely changing your
    > Bluetooth dongle and antenna.


    So you are disputing the engineering concept that the size and placement
    of an antenna can affect radiated signal strength, pattern and
    transmission / reception range?

    You are basically saying that the antenna that's built into the small
    USB dongles are just as effective as large, externally-mounted antennas.

    You are also disputing the concept that when given the luxury of more
    PC-board real estate for a device, that you can frequently build a
    device with more features or better performance if you aren't restricted
    by the size of the device envelope.

    It's clear that either you don't understand basic engineering
    principles, or you're also dreaming.

    You seem to be saying that the extended-range bluetooth tranceiver being
    sold AIRcable is a complete fabrication - that it's range specifications
    are completely bogus.

    Perhaps you can tell us what your credentials are, what your argument
    is, that enables you to put forward a convincing argument to support
    your statement above?

  18. #18
    Jeff Liebermann
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and not combo wifi) ?

    On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 09:26:05 -0400, Sum Guy <Sum@Guy.com> wrote:

    >I see that there are some really cheap combo cards that do 802.11 B/G
    >(not N) and also do Bluetooth.


    Careful there. They use a single chip that can do either BT or Wi-Fi,
    but not simultaneously. If you're trying to use one to talk on a BT
    headset, while using Skype over a Wi-Fi connection, you might have
    problems.

    >I've read where those cards are
    >CPU-intensive (they have a DSP and make the computer's CPU do all the
    >work - ??).


    Nope. Most chipsets do all their own processing. I'm not too
    familiar with the current offerings but can find them with Google.
    Need references or direction?

    >They also don't use (or are not compatible with) Microsoft's
    >Bluetooth stack (what-ever implications or consequences that has - I
    >don't know).


    Some companies don't want to spend the money to obtain Microsoft
    hardware and driver WHQL approval.
    <http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/winlogo/>
    For new products that were recently released, Microsoft no longer
    approves hardware and drivers for XP (only Vista and Windoze 9).

    >I was wondering if there was a good (high-performance, long-range)
    >bluetooth-only PCI card?


    Nope. One way is to take the available PCMCIA card and cram it into a
    PCMCIA/CardBus to PCI adapter card such as:
    <http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-CardBus-PCMCIA-Adapter-Card/dp/B00068YUPM>

    Another way is to use a combo BT/Wi-Fi card in Mini-PCI format, and
    just insert it into a PCI adapter card:
    <http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815158098>
    What's really nice about this arrangement is that the software
    interface from Mini-PCI and PCI are identical, so you don't have to
    deal with the PCMCIA/CardBus drivers.

    >A card that is compatible with an external, high-gain antenna?


    All Mini-PCI cards have MAIN and AUX connectors, usually using U.FL
    connectors. You can buy adapter cables to RP-SMA. The above Mini-PCI
    to PCI adapter includes solder pads for adding your own right angle
    RP-SMA connector.

    >And if I have to get a combo PCI card just to get bluetooth, is there at
    >least a card that will do 802.11 N as well as bluetooth?


    Dunno. Why would you want 802.11n? All it does is provide more
    speed, not range. At extreme range, it falls back to 802.11g speeds
    and protocols. 802.11g is good enough for most applications (except
    perhaps video).



    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
    150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
    Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

  19. #19
    Sum Guy
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and notcombo wifi) ?

    Jeff Liebermann wrote:

    > > I was wondering if there was a good (high-performance,
    > > long-range) bluetooth-only PCI card?

    >
    > Nope.


    You should probably read more recent posts in a thread before responding
    to an early post. There are PCI bluetooth cards (at least one) as
    mentioned in a later post. See here:

    http://www.blueserial.com/pcicard_e.htm

  20. #20
    Jeff Liebermann
    Guest

    Re: Is there a Bluetooth PCI card that is *just* bluetooth (and not combo wifi) ?

    On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 12:56:43 -0400, Sum Guy <Sum@Guy.com> wrote:

    >Jeff Liebermann wrote:
    >
    >> > I was wondering if there was a good (high-performance,
    >> > long-range) bluetooth-only PCI card?

    >>
    >> Nope.

    >
    >You should probably read more recent posts in a thread before responding
    >to an early post.


    I should, but I'm lazy. I'll just write some more, and maybe later
    see how close I guessed.

    >There are PCI bluetooth cards (at least one) as
    >mentioned in a later post. See here:
    >
    >http://www.blueserial.com/pcicard_e.htm


    Good find. Digging deeper... Data sheet and user manual in English:
    <http://www.gw-instruments.de/picopci.html>
    BT 1.1 only (not 2.0). The Windoze driver emulates a dialup modem
    (PICO Modem) at 144Kbits/sec. Good selection of BT profiles (see user
    manual). Two versions (class 2 and class 1 power levels). $92 and
    $130 respectively.

    As for long range, I tried to find the current holder of the distance
    record.

    1.08 miles for Bluejacking to a cell phone:
    <http://bluetooth.weblogsinc.com/2004/08/06/bluetooth-researchers-keep-breaking-records>

    There was some BT distance testing done at various Defcon events in
    the past, but I couldn't find any results.

    Instead of PCI, why not use a common USB Bluetooth dongle?


    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
    150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
    Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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