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Thread: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

  1. #41
    Volker Birk
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    CJ <anothermungjob@home.just.net> wrote:
    > Many have found them useful. Some years ago malware/virus was released on
    > the internet. It was the software firewalls that stopped the malware/virus
    > from spreading. It was not the anti-virus software, or anti-adware, or even
    > the anti-spyware software that protected these boxes. It was only the
    > software firewalls that caught, and stopped the malware/virus. It was also
    > just a few of your firewalls that did the protecting.


    Nice fairy tale.

    Yours,
    VB.
    --
    Bitte beachten Sie auch die Rückseite dieses Schreibens!

  2. #42
    CJ
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    :
    : Maybe to you. Or maybe I just understand that it is just as important to
    : understand the limitations of the user. It's ridiculous to expect that a
    : typical Windows user (or Mac, for that matter) will even attempt to set
    : up a VPN, edit the registry, disable services, etc.

    But ...but they were born with that silver mouse in hand! I mean everyone
    knows this stuff from day one of logging onto the Internet!

    /sarcasm



  3. #43
    DevilsPGD
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    In message <slrngrkd2v.727.BitTwister@wm81.home.test> Bit Twister
    <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> was claimed to have wrote:

    >If you have no services which respond to inbound connections then the
    >firewall is not needed. If running Micro$oft, we know there are a few
    >open services. :)
    >Therefore you need a firewall.


    Luckily, if you've installed a Windows OS or service pack released in
    the last four and a half years, you've got a firewall turned on be
    default that blocks all listening services.

  4. #44
    Volker Birk
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    DevilsPGD <DeathToSpam@crazyhat.net> wrote:
    > Luckily, if you've installed a Windows OS or service pack released in
    > the last four and a half years, you've got a firewall turned on be
    > default that blocks all listening services.


    And like most firewalls, also this one (the Windows firewall) can be
    fooled easily i.e. with simulated FTP code.

    Yours,
    VB.
    --
    Bitte beachten Sie auch die Rückseite dieses Schreibens!

  5. #45
    Volker Birk
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    Geoff Smith <geoff915@yahoo.com> wrote:
    > Are they helpful as an additional layer of protection? For
    > most people, yes.


    You're misunderstanding the military strategy of defense in depth. To
    make a line of defense does not mean "taking measures which are commonly
    useless against the enemy, but offer additional attack vectors for
    them".

    "Multi layer security" is advertizing nonsense of people who want you to
    misunderstand that, because they want you to buy their products, which
    most commonly are useless up to dangerous.

    > Is it possible that they can include bugs that compromise a system? Yes.
    > But you could say that about ANY piece of software.


    And that is the reason, why you should REMOVE software and SWITCH OFF
    software instead of adding even more to make your system more secure.

    Yours,
    VB.
    --
    Bitte beachten Sie auch die Rückseite dieses Schreibens!

  6. #46
    G
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    In article <gph680U9hoL1@news.in-ulm.de>, bumens@dingens.org says...
    >
    > Geoff Smith <geoff915@yahoo.com> wrote:
    > > Are they helpful as an additional layer of protection? For
    > > most people, yes.

    >
    > You're misunderstanding the military strategy of defense in depth. To
    > make a line of defense does not mean "taking measures which are commonly
    > useless against the enemy, but offer additional attack vectors for
    > them".
    >
    > "Multi layer security" is advertizing nonsense of people who want you to
    > misunderstand that, because they want you to buy their products, which
    > most commonly are useless up to dangerous.
    >
    > > Is it possible that they can include bugs that compromise a system? Yes.
    > > But you could say that about ANY piece of software.

    >
    > And that is the reason, why you should REMOVE software and SWITCH OFF
    > software instead of adding even more to make your system more secure.
    >
    > Yours,
    > VB.


    Goodbye all. Enjoy arguing among yourselves. Good luck with your
    crusade.

  7. #47
    Ansgar -59cobalt- Wiechers
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    CJ <anothermungjob@home.just.net> wrote:
    >> If you don't want to use a software firewall, fine. Many people find
    >> them useful. To call them "snakeoil" is to imply that they do
    >> absolutely nothing. And that just isn't true.

    >
    > Many have found them useful. Some years ago malware/virus was
    > released on the internet. It was the software firewalls that stopped
    > the malware/virus from spreading. It was not the anti-virus software,
    > or anti-adware, or even the anti-spyware software that protected these
    > boxes. It was only the software firewalls that caught, and stopped the
    > malware/virus. It was also just a few of your firewalls that did the
    > protecting.


    Pray tell, what mysterious malware/virus might that have been?

    cu
    59cobalt
    --
    "If a software developer ever believes a rootkit is a necessary part of
    their architecture they should go back and re-architect their solution."
    --Mark Russinovich

  8. #48
    DevilsPGD
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    In message <gph5r6U6n6L4@news.in-ulm.de> Volker Birk
    <bumens@dingens.org> was claimed to have wrote:

    >DevilsPGD <DeathToSpam@crazyhat.net> wrote:
    >> Luckily, if you've installed a Windows OS or service pack released in
    >> the last four and a half years, you've got a firewall turned on be
    >> default that blocks all listening services.

    >
    >And like most firewalls, also this one (the Windows firewall) can be
    >fooled easily i.e. with simulated FTP code.


    Fooled by an application running locally? Sure. Or the local
    application could just do whatever malicious thing it wants anyway.

  9. #49
    Root Kit
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:56:54 GMT, "CJ" <anothermungjob@home.just.net>
    wrote:

    >Many have found them useful. Some years ago malware/virus was released on
    >the internet. It was the software firewalls that stopped the malware/virus
    >from spreading. It was not the anti-virus software, or anti-adware, or even
    >the anti-spyware software that protected these boxes. It was only the
    >software firewalls that caught, and stopped the malware/virus. It was also
    >just a few of your firewalls that did the protecting.


    Got any reliable sources to back that up?

  10. #50
    Volker Birk
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    DevilsPGD <DeathToSpam@crazyhat.net> wrote:
    > In message <gph5r6U6n6L4@news.in-ulm.de> Volker Birk
    > <bumens@dingens.org> was claimed to have wrote:
    >>DevilsPGD <DeathToSpam@crazyhat.net> wrote:
    >>> Luckily, if you've installed a Windows OS or service pack released in
    >>> the last four and a half years, you've got a firewall turned on be
    >>> default that blocks all listening services.

    >>And like most firewalls, also this one (the Windows firewall) can be
    >>fooled easily i.e. with simulated FTP code.

    > Fooled by an application running locally? Sure.


    "Local" applications like Flash content on a website.

    > Or the local
    > application could just do whatever malicious thing it wants anyway.


    No.

    Yours,
    VB.
    --
    Bitte beachten Sie auch die Rückseite dieses Schreibens!

  11. #51
    Volker Birk
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    G <geoff915@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >> > Is it possible that they can include bugs that compromise a system? Yes.
    >> > But you could say that about ANY piece of software.

    >> And that is the reason, why you should REMOVE software and SWITCH OFF
    >> software instead of adding even more to make your system more secure.

    > Goodbye all. Enjoy arguing among yourselves. Good luck with your
    > crusade.


    "I'm running out of factual arguments, so I'm switching to ad hominem
    arguments now. To prevent me from being argued any more (perhaps someone
    notices the trick with ad hominem) I'm announcing that I will ignore the
    response."

    Yours,
    VB.
    --
    Bitte beachten Sie auch die Rückseite dieses Schreibens!

  12. #52
    Root Kit
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 19:26:09 GMT, "CJ" <anothermungjob@home.just.net>
    wrote:

    >:
    >: Maybe to you. Or maybe I just understand that it is just as important to
    >: understand the limitations of the user. It's ridiculous to expect that a
    >: typical Windows user (or Mac, for that matter) will even attempt to set
    >: up a VPN, edit the registry, disable services, etc.
    >
    >But ...but they were born with that silver mouse in hand! I mean everyone
    >knows this stuff from day one of logging onto the Internet!
    >
    >/sarcasm
    >


    Another sales man just jumped in to support his colleague.

  13. #53
    Root Kit
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 10:41:30 +0200, G <geoff915@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >Maybe to you. Or maybe I just understand that it is just as important to
    >understand the limitations of the user. It's ridiculous to expect that a
    >typical Windows user (or Mac, for that matter) will even attempt to set
    >up a VPN, edit the registry, disable services, etc.


    It's equally ridiculous to expect a so called typical windows user to
    be able to correctly deal with a PFW (if that was even possible).

    Mr. Average shouldn't have to deal with technical stuff at that level.
    If he doesn't understand how to properly configure his machine, he
    should get help from someone who understands. I know how to drive my
    car. But I don't know much about what goes on under the hood - which
    is why I take it to the local garage now and then.

    Windows firewall requires zero configuration (which is about the
    maximum you can expect from Mr. Average) in order to get started.

  14. #54
    Root Kit
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 23:41:18 +0200, G <geoff915@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >Goodbye all. Enjoy arguing among yourselves. Good luck with your
    >crusade.


    Nice way of letting us know that you've run out of arguments.

  15. #55
    CJ
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?


    "Root Kit" <b__nice@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:n28pr491hj9l8stqij86r6i58qpk2q9l1u@4ax.com...
    : On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:56:54 GMT, "CJ" :

    :Got any reliable sources to back that up?


    It use to be on the ZA forum. I tried to find it, and could not find it.
    There is a chance I am slightly off a tad. It could of been a vulnerability
    with the Windows OS, and the firewalls blocked it from the time it was
    discovered. Maybe I should of looked further before stating that. Sorry
    folks. I will continue to look for it though. But so far I have not found
    it.



  16. #56
    Ansgar -59cobalt- Wiechers
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    CJ <anothermungjob@home.just.net> wrote:
    > "Root Kit" <b__nice@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >> Got any reliable sources to back that up?

    >
    > It use to be on the ZA forum. I tried to find it, and could not find
    > it. There is a chance I am slightly off a tad. It could of been a
    > vulnerability with the Windows OS, and the firewalls blocked it from
    > the time it was discovered.


    You're probably talking about W32/Blaster [1], which is a worm not a
    virus. It exploited a vulnerability in Windows' RPC service. However,
    aside from filtering access to the service with a firewall, the attack
    would have been thwarted as well by:

    - installing the patch to actually fix the vulnerability, which was
    released a month before [2,3].
    - configuring the system to not run the service on the external
    interface in the first place [4].

    > Maybe I should of looked further before stating that.


    Yes, you should.

    [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaster_(computer_worm)
    [2] http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sec.../MS03-026.mspx
    [3] http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sec.../MS03-039.mspx
    [4] http://www.ntsvcfg.de/ntsvcfg_eng.html

    cu
    59cobalt
    --
    "If a software developer ever believes a rootkit is a necessary part of
    their architecture they should go back and re-architect their solution."
    --Mark Russinovich

  17. #57
    Ansgar -59cobalt- Wiechers
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    Root Kit <b__nice@hotmail.com> wrote:
    > Windows firewall requires zero configuration (which is about the
    > maximum you can expect from Mr. Average) in order to get started.


    Unfortunately it still could use some fine tuning here and there,
    though. Like, disallowing UPnP (IIRC that's allowed by default), and
    allowing some ICMP types.

    cu
    59cobalt
    --
    "If a software developer ever believes a rootkit is a necessary part of
    their architecture they should go back and re-architect their solution."
    --Mark Russinovich

  18. #58
    goarilla
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how shouldit be done?

    On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:56:54 +0000, CJ wrote:

    > : If you don't want to use a software firewall, fine. Many people find :
    > them useful. To call them "snakeoil" is to imply that they do absolutely
    > : nothing. And that just isn't true.
    >
    > Many have found them useful. Some years ago malware/virus was released
    > on the internet. It was the software firewalls that stopped the
    > malware/virus from spreading. It was not the anti-virus software, or
    > anti-adware, or even the anti-spyware software that protected these
    > boxes. It was only the software firewalls that caught, and stopped the
    > malware/virus. It was also just a few of your firewalls that did the
    > protecting.


    wow your folklore is really technical, our urban myths usually include some
    very odd usages of mammal cadavres.

  19. #59
    Moe Trin
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    On Sat, 14 Mar 2009, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.security.firewalls, in article
    <RrTul.620$cW.570@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, CJ wrote:

    >And you better know what you are doing because if you don't you could
    >have several back doors open. Plus, the first time a new user logs on
    >to the net, they are suppose to already know which of the security
    >websites are legit, and have valuable information, and which are bogus.


    Have the initial O/S install set the firewall to only allow connections
    to the "legitimate" website until the computer has been completely
    brought up-to-date, and then let that website alter the firewall to
    permit "normal" use.

    Require that the company/individual who _delivers_ the computer to the
    end-user update it completely when the system is delivered, not after.

    >Thus they are still suppose to have been born with that silver mouse
    >in hand.


    You know - you are making a good case for not allowing the clueless to
    have access to a computer until they learn how to use one safely.
    Unfortunately, you'd loose because it would make things harder for
    those who think they have a natural legal _right_ to be st00pid.

    >: This is why I'm saying, that Microsoft should deliver hardened
    >: systems, of course. The catastrophic spread of botnets is their
    >: fault.
    >
    >Didn't Microsoft want to harden down Vista and the anti software
    >vendors, and firewall vendors cried foul?


    Please cite _ANY_ creditable source for that fairy-tale statement.

    Old guy

  20. #60
    Root Kit
    Guest

    Re: It seems every firewall is slagged as snake oil. So how should it be done?

    On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 12:11:23 +0100 (CET), Ansgar -59cobalt- Wiechers
    <usenet-2009@planetcobalt.net> wrote:

    >Root Kit <b__nice@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >> Windows firewall requires zero configuration (which is about the
    >> maximum you can expect from Mr. Average) in order to get started.

    >
    >Unfortunately it still could use some fine tuning here and there,
    >though. Like, disallowing UPnP (IIRC that's allowed by default), and
    >allowing some ICMP types.


    Sure. But that's a little beyond the point.

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