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Thread: Auto bailout collapses in Senate

  1. #41
    ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ downhill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    true, but that is the amount GM pays for all the union extras and health care, retirement benefits, ect.
    or am i off base here ?

    as Honda pays about $47 per hour or so ?
    Yes that's true but like Doc said, it's a fully loaded cost. Those figures also include health costs for retired workers.

    It's disingenuous for the news to keep reporting that big three auto workers and since the cost was from a GM paper, to say they are making 73 bucks an hour.

    Now if Toyota was in business half as long in this country as say, GM, their fully loaded costs would be very close to GM's.

    You want that cost to go away? Provide universal heath care.

  2. #42
    Moderator YeOldeStonecat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainman View Post
    $73/hour..... ?!?!?!
    Cost to the company, per employee.
    You have your before tax wages to the employee
    You have your retirement plan that the company pays into to the employee
    You have your benefits such as dental and medical care, which the company usually pays the larger percentage of
    Life Insurance
    Disability
    Unemployment
    Other "things" you're given when you're hired...uniform? Supplies? Tools? Desk? Training?
    A percentage of the human resource staff time.
    You have your sick time, holidays...the employee still gets paid...

    When a company hires someone...there is a "cost to the company" substantially more than just the hourly or salaried wage the employee takes home each week.

    A month or so ago in an older thread about the US auto crisis...I either read it or saw it on TV or something....some numbers comparing these "cost per employee" differences between the US Big 3, versus other offshore brands.

    If I recall correctly...for Detroit, it was $75-ish. On the other end of the scale, Hyundai was used as an example...it was somewhere around $30.00 (give or take a couple) . Now, this was US plants....so we're not talking about the cost of a factory in some 3rd world country using slave labor for 8 cents an hour. It was a Hyundai plant in Texas if I recall, and the workers there were fairly competitive in wages against Detroit....lower..a little..but not much. Many of the workers at this plant were prior workers in Detroit..they quit Detroit big 3 to move to work down at the Hyundai plant. So something must have been attractive, no?

    It just makes you wonder...what accounts for the gross differences in "cost per employee". When the employees (the majority of blue collar workers) make roughly the same. Factor in fat Detroit CEO and management salaries/bonuses I'm sure. The blue collar workers, even though their hourly wage is a little lower than Detroit....they probably "take home" more..since they don't have to pay

    //edit....wow, I was looking up UAW costs/dues at some UAW website...and it was hijacked by a trojan that tried to install a variant rogue antivirus on my system, "Antivirus 360".

    Was going to look into comparing
    *Slightly lower wages of working at a plant like Hyundai, but take home more because you don't have to pay UAW dues
    *versus making higher money, but having to pay UAW dues. I don't know what % of your pay they take.
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  3. #43
    Ohh Hell yeah.. Sava700's Avatar
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  4. #44
    Second Most EVIL YARDofSTUF's Avatar
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    Should be a chain connecting the Big 3 boat to the UAW one.

  5. #45
    TypicalWhitePerson JC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YARDofSTUF View Post
    Should be a chain connecting the Big 3 boat to the UAW one.

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  6. #46
    Ohh Hell yeah.. Sava700's Avatar
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    LMFAO!! Now GM and Ford are asking another country for help... This is including the assistance they want from the US.

    http://forexdaily.org.ru/Dow_Jones/page.htm?id=357212

    what joke...

  7. #47
    Second Most EVIL YARDofSTUF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sava700 View Post
    LMFAO!! Now GM and Ford are asking another country for help... This is including the assistance they want from the US.

    http://forexdaily.org.ru/Dow_Jones/page.htm?id=357212

    what joke...
    Its nothing new, in Australia and Canada and I think Germany as well theres discussions of help too. been going on for a while for the divisions over there.

  8. #48
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sava700 View Post
    LMFAO!! Now GM and Ford are asking another country for help... This is including the assistance they want from the US.

    http://forexdaily.org.ru/Dow_Jones/page.htm?id=357212

    what joke...

    I wouldn't say they are asking for help....Both Saab and Volvo have said that their brands will carry on with aid from their respective countries no matter what happens to GM and Ford.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  9. #49
    Senior Member fastchevy's Avatar
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    DH, do you have any personal experience with the UAW, or is it all by reading that you are basing your opinion on?
    .

  10. #50
    Ohh Hell yeah.. Sava700's Avatar
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    Another reason to let them fail.. I mean how beyond stupid is this:

    If gas prices stay low, Chrysler factories will produce more gasoline powered models. If gas prices rise, factories can start rapidly turning out more electric cars since the models are essentially the same.
    http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/15/auto...ion=2008121513

    Give them money to keep on making Gas engines when they have the ability to produce Electric instead.... If they for some odd stupid reason get that money they should be forced to abandon gas engines and only build the electric to get us off the oil addiction.

  11. #51
    Second Most EVIL YARDofSTUF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sava700 View Post
    Another reason to let them fail.. I mean how beyond stupid is this:
    It makes sense becasue if prices stay low more people are going to be willing to by less efficient cars.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by YARDofSTUF View Post
    It makes sense becasue if prices stay low more people are going to be willing to by less efficient cars.
    it fails in the aspect of them wanting money to help save them yet most likely the Govt won't force them into these changes they claim they can make on such a quick setup. If they can do it..they need to do it cause prices will go up sooner or later not to mention the repair parts costs dropping over the years..as it stands now its almost impossible to find someone to even work on a Hybrid around here let alone attempt to find parts to repair them without getting really ripped from a over priced warranty.

  13. #53
    ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ downhill's Avatar
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    With what the house passed, yes change in the auto industry would come. It was part of the bailout the Senate didn't pass.

    So if the bailout comes by way of the Whitehouse, then yes, you would be correct in that I think the ties would have to be the same as what was offered to the big lending institutions. Which was really very little.

    Time will tell, but I'd agree with you that given that gas stays cheap, a good many people won't buy a hybrid for 4 to 5 thousand more over a gas model.

  14. #54
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    Chrysler Shuts Doors, Opens Talks With GM

    Chrysler LLC and General Motors, two of America's premier auto manufacturers, have reopened merger talks as the industry further spirals downward, The Wall Street Journal reported Thursday.

    A day earlier, Chrysler announced it would close all its North American manufacturing plants for at least a month, the starkest move taken by U.S. automakers as they anxiously await word about government loans.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...pStoryHeadline

    This is something they should do.. merge, then you will see GM/Chrysler merge with Ford and perhaps you might see better vehicles. Merging with Bankruptcy is a good idea since they can also get out of greedy contracts and start profiting like the airlines did!

  15. #55
    Second Most EVIL YARDofSTUF's Avatar
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    Ford doesn't want a merger, they arent in as bad a spot as GM and Chrysler.

    GM and Honda are also closing plants for a while to cut their production numbers.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by YARDofSTUF View Post
    Ford doesn't want a merger, they arent in as bad a spot as GM and Chrysler.

    GM and Honda are also closing plants for a while to cut their production numbers.
    Ford may not want a merger but them using their not so bad spot for a take over of the two combined other companies might be a good idea since they will be broke and/or bankrupt.

    Ford and the others are shutting down plants for 3weeks or more starting next week which is usually normal.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sava700 View Post
    Ford may not want a merger but them using their not so bad spot for a take over of the two combined other companies might be a good idea since they will be broke and/or bankrupt.

    Ford and the others are shutting down plants for 3weeks or more starting next week which is usually normal.
    Ford would nto gain anything by merging with GM and/or Chrysler. Ford has been preparing itself for a turnaround on its own, why would they want to take on more debt and product overlap? Ford has said they only need help if GM and Chrysler get a bailout or file chapter 11, otherwise they'll be fine.

    GM and honda are doing it to cut production by a good bit, and shutting down for longer than usual.

  18. #58
    Ohh Hell yeah.. Sava700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YARDofSTUF View Post
    Ford would nto gain anything by merging with GM and/or Chrysler. Ford has been preparing itself for a turnaround on its own, why would they want to take on more debt and product overlap? Ford has said they only need help if GM and Chrysler get a bailout or file chapter 11, otherwise they'll be fine.

    GM and honda are doing it to cut production by a good bit, and shutting down for longer than usual.
    Ford may not gain anything but the other two as a whole will...thats the best solution for the Big 3 to become the Big 1... the same ole comment about who would buy a car from a bankrupt company is nonsense when you had millions of people still flying on airlines that were bankrupt...which came out to profit years later after restructure and removal of greedy contracts.

  19. #59
    Imperial Impotentate brembo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sava700 View Post
    the same ole comment about who would buy a car from a bankrupt company is nonsense when you had millions of people still flying on airlines that were bankrupt....

    Huge difference Sava. The airlines provide a service that's essentially a "one time" thing. Not like passengers are expected to maintain the planes. You get on the plane, ride for awhile and get off. No more to expect.

    Buying a 30k hunk of steel from a company that might not exist in 3 months is another ball of wax. You need that company around for parts and expert assistance with problems.
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  20. #60
    Second Most EVIL YARDofSTUF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sava700 View Post
    Ford may not gain anything but the other two as a whole will...thats the best solution for the Big 3 to become the Big 1... the same ole comment about who would buy a car from a bankrupt company is nonsense when you had millions of people still flying on airlines that were bankrupt...which came out to profit years later after restructure and removal of greedy contracts.
    The big 3 merging into 1 would send them all out of business, so thats very bad for Ford.

    Filing chapter 11 could work out, but all of them merging into 1 company is beyond retarded.

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