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Thread: Auto bailout collapses in Senate

  1. #21
    Ohh Hell yeah.. Sava700's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YeOldeStonecat View Post
    Yup...all sides have to give a bit. We the public are giving with our tax dollars..which is out of our pocket. The UAW needs to stop worrying about keeping their wallets fat.

    Part of me wants to see the big 3 collapse purely to get the UAW where it hurts, if they don't "give" a little. UAW doesn't give in a bit..fine..pull the carpet out from under them..no more auto industry! Go pump gas or wash dishes.

  2. #22
    Senior Member fastchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YARDofSTUF View Post
    The UAW should have made compromises. I think it would have helped this bailout get through the senate.

    Bad things is the UAW isn't used to being told what to do or that they must compromise..this is a whole new situation for those *******s...I mean people.
    .

  3. #23
    Advanced Member tarpoon75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downhill View Post
    Sava, I don't think you are in a postion to explain to anyone about unions. lol

    Roody, who knows if they won't? Union leaders aren't exactly in a postion to just say, "Sure, we'll drop 4 bucks off of the pay of every member." I believe it would have to come down to a vote.

    Agian, it's just typical antiunion tactics by the Republican party. It's not exacly like they get any pac money from unions. lol Payback time.

    There is also this consensus among many Reps in congress that it's not that big a deal if Chrysler and GM claim chapter 11. Some of them think that those two companies will come out a lot leaner and more competitive. Of course that would kill the UAW and insiders think that's exactly what Republican leadership in the Senate is trying to do.

    Despite the fact that thousands and thousands of jobs are at risk.
    In all seriousness can you tell me why you think the UAW is not part of the problem in this whole issue?

    Do we really need the UAW in it's present form in this day and age?
    Now, Hank, touch your throat. That tube you feel is your trachea. Think of it as your handle. That thing your thumb is on is your carotid artery. Think of it as your button. I want you to grab the handle, push the button.
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  4. #24
    Second Most EVIL YARDofSTUF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarpoon75 View Post
    In all seriousness can you tell me why you think the UAW is not part of the problem in this whole issue?

    Do we really need the UAW in it's present form in this day and age?
    A union in that line of work I would say yes, the UAW, no. The UAW is still stuck on old ideas and has a 1 track mind, focused on money.

    A union is needed that understands the industry and that is interested in working with company to help its members getting quality pay and services, while helping the company get teh best out of its workers.

  5. #25
    Senior Member fastchevy's Avatar
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    To contact the UAW International, write us at:
    UAW
    Solidarity House
    8000 East Jefferson Avenue
    Detroit, Michigan 48214

    or call us at: (313) 926-5000
    .

  6. #26
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    From a CNN analyst:

    Zakaria: Actually there are 12 international car companies that have manufacturing operations in the United States. Collectively, they employ 113,000 Americans directly -- even though that is less than the 239,000 at Ford, GM and Chrysler. However, those international car companies sell more cars than the Big Three and their customers love their products. They have millions of American shareholders. They do sophisticated work like research, design and marketing in the United States. All in all, they add jobs and high value to the United States.

    CNN: So what are they doing better than the U.S. car companies?

    Zakaria: It is simple -- better management. Yes, Detroit has problems because of its legacy costs, the cost of paying health care and pensions to its retirees. But many other Americans firms in other industries have had to change their benefit systems or die. Detroit always managed to avoid making the change in part because of government assistance.

    But companies like Toyota, Honda, and BMW are not just skilled at cutting costs -- they make better cars. They have more flexible factories and production systems, and understand what American consumers want.

    For example, Toyota and Honda are years ahead of American carmakers in designing and producing hybrid cars, and as consumer demand moves in that direction, they will reap the rewards.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  7. #27
    SG Enthusiast Think's Avatar
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    union will not make concessions? Wow, they are absolutely crazy

    House will likely be forced to tap funds from the Wall Street bailout to lend them money, two Republican congressional officials told CNN.


    -force concessions
    -GM will backdoor this through GMAC anyway
    -Chrysler? Yuck, let them sink
    -Ford has some cash to survive amongst the three + union, management, CEO concession on salary and benefits coupled with funds from the WS bailout + bring in the European models will help them a great deal.

    It's time for change.
    got old



  8. #28
    ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ downhill's Avatar
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    I keep laughing at this, "unions won't accept change". The UAW already did accept some consessions.

    Read some more, will you people? It's not like the UAW can just say "Sure, we'd be willing to drop wage consessions 5 bucks an hour and we won't even let membership vote on it."

    Come on now, quit reading what you want into all of this. Tell me, was there a single one of you who wondered why the UAW's view point was never given? It's pretty simple really. People generally go with their first instincts and have a hard time changing their minds about issues.

    However you all know me very well by now or should. I don't mind showing you the other side of the coin.

    Here's a little tidbit for you.

    Gettelfigner took aim at criticism over UAW wages and demands that compensation be made the same as foreign auto companies’ U.S. plants. He pointed to research that showed Toyota workers at a plant in Kentucky were making, with bonuses, $30 an hour, compared to the $28.12 an hour paid to UAW workers at the Detroit automakers.

    Wow, so by McConnell' reckoning. , The big three need to up the average from 28 bucks to 30 bucks.....




    “This was just simply subterfuge on the part of the minority in the Republican party who wanted to tear down any agreement that we came up with,” Gettelfinger said.



    Ok so this sounds like typical spin. I mean to say the UAW is now under attack for the failures of the big three. LOL Still there IS some truth to it.


    Gettelfinger said he told U.S. Sen. Bob Corker, a Republican from Tennessee, that if Toyota was going to be used as the benchmark for wages, the union leader was willing to send a team of his researchers to Toyota to study the automaker’s entire wage structure.

    “In addition to that, if we were going to use them as a benchmark, we should be permitted to see how they pay their management,” Gettelfinger said. “If we did that, we should also see their dealer contracts and as well as their supplier contracts. That would only make sense to me instead of somebody saying, ‘Here’s the wage — that’s what you have to agree to.’ ”

    Gettelfinger blamed some Southern Republican who are antiunion and who represent communities that are home to foreign automakers. He said it was a “two-fer” by piercing “the heart of organized labor while representing the foreign brands.”
    Well the last paragraph makes very good sense given what some of those southern states have giving to overseas car companies to get them to build in there respective states.

    Still, autoworkers remain angry with the senators who tried to negotiate wage and benefit concessions from the union, then scuttled the House-passed bill that would have granted the loans and set up a "car czar" to oversee the nearly insolvent companies and get concessions from the union and creditors. Their top targets were Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky.; Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., who led negotiations on a compromise; and Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., who has been a vocal critic of the loans.

    Kentucky, Tennessee and Alabama all house auto assembly plants from foreign automakers, and union officials contend the senators want to drive UAW wages down so there would be no reason for workers at the foreign plants to join the union.

    "They thought perhaps they could have a twofer here maybe: Pierce the heart of organized labor while representing the foreign brands," UAW President Ron Gettelfinger said at a Friday morning news conference in Detroit.
    Interesting....and really there is probably some truth to this in that Dems would push for a national act to allow unionizing in states that are harder than a petrified pickle to get a union going.

    Still....once again, it's not exactly the unions fault this measure failed. Things like a wage cut take time to vote on.

  9. #29
    ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ downhill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarpoon75 View Post
    In all seriousness can you tell me why you think the UAW is not part of the problem in this whole issue?

    Do we really need the UAW in it's present form in this day and age?
    I agree with Yardy...yes we do need some kind of collective bargaining. Tell me exactly why you think we don't.

    I've never said that the UAW didn't have a part in this mess. Quite the opposite. However I believe it's a lot less than the companies they work for.

  10. #30
    TypicalWhitePerson JC's Avatar
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    Gettelfigner took aim at criticism over UAW wages and demands that compensation be made the same as foreign auto companies’ U.S. plants. He pointed to research that showed Toyota workers at a plant in Kentucky were making, with bonuses, $30 an hour, compared to the $28.12 an hour paid to UAW workers at the Detroit automakers.

    Wow, so by McConnell' reckoning. , The big three need to up the average from 28 bucks to 30 bucks.....
    $30 per hour also included cash bonuses for performance. When you look at total compensation ie benefits etc, that's where the $ 40 an hour vs $ 73 comes in.

    Gettelfigner talking about "benchmarks" based on Toyota is interesting considering the auto companies are in washington with their hats in their hands wanting tax payer money that we don't even have.


    As I have said before, The unions and it's members have forgotten who they work for. I 'll give them a hint..... It's not the union.
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  11. #31
    ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ downhill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
    $30 per hour also included cash bonuses for performance. When you look at total compensation ie benefits etc, that's where the $ 40 an hour vs $ 73 comes in.

    Gettelfigner talking about "benchmarks" based on Toyota is interesting considering the auto companies are in washington with their hats in their hands.
    Oh I know full well where those differences were, JC.

    You really don't think that Gettlefigner has a point? Look the UAW has never had a say in the direction the big three take their companies. They don't get to see contracts with dealers, suppliers ect. He has a point that to know what those other companies are doing, may save the big three.

    Or, it may show a lot of graft from a few southern states who in some ways, have been actually helping, foreign car companies at the tax payer expense.

  12. #32
    TypicalWhitePerson JC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downhill View Post
    Oh I know full well where those differences were, JC.

    You really don't think that Gettlefigner has a point? Look the UAW has never had a say in the direction the big three take their companies. They don't get to see contracts with dealers, suppliers ect. He has a point that to know what those other companies are doing, may save the big three.
    I don't know. Since when do the employees dictate how a company runs and how they do business. With that said, I have never worked for a union so....

    Quote Originally Posted by downhill View Post
    Or, it may show a lot of graft from a few southern states who in some ways, have been actually helping, foreign car companies at the tax payer expense.
    True, but that is more on a state level I think, and with state tax payers money. I don't think they normally "give" money to them. Instead the offer lower taxes etc for them to build and employ in the area.
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  13. #33
    Advanced Member tarpoon75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downhill View Post
    I agree with Yardy...yes we do need some kind of collective bargaining. Tell me exactly why you think we don't.

    I've never said that the UAW didn't have a part in this mess. Quite the opposite. However I believe it's a lot less than the companies they work for.
    Quote Originally Posted by downhill View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tarpoon75 View Post
    I say tell the UAW to go f@#k themselves

    Educate yourself on the current problems of the big three then come back and post your findings.

    Thank you very much.
    What was this comment about then?

    If I'm wrong then I'm wrong and apologize.
    Now, Hank, touch your throat. That tube you feel is your trachea. Think of it as your handle. That thing your thumb is on is your carotid artery. Think of it as your button. I want you to grab the handle, push the button.
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  14. #34
    TypicalWhitePerson JC's Avatar
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    I'm just thinking here. Maybe part of the problem with the US auto manufactures is an image issue. Maybe this could start some kind of uniformity. Uniforms might be the answer, I don't know. Have a certain level of professionalism about them, not that they are not professionals but at least look that way as well.
    Disclaimer** (I come from a military background and like things uniform and "dress right dress")
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  15. #35
    Junior Member MadDoctor's Avatar
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    People will forget what you said... and people will forget what you did... but people will never forget how you made them feel.

  16. #36
    Elite Member mountainman's Avatar
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    $73/hour..... ?!?!?!

    I wish I hadn't gone to college out of high school and just gotten a job at GM. Damn!! That's almost $152k per year. I made $26k my first year out of college with the chance to top out around $53k after 10 or 15 years and a masters degree.

    Incredible.

  17. #37
    ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ downhill's Avatar
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    *sigh*


    No they don't make 73 bucks an hour.

  18. #38
    resident plumber Mark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downhill View Post
    *sigh*


    No they don't make 73 bucks an hour.
    true, but that is the amount GM pays for all the union extras and health care, retirement benefits, ect.
    or am i off base here ?

    as Honda pays about $47 per hour or so ?

  19. #39
    Junior Member MadDoctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    the amount GM pays for all the union extras and health care, retirement benefits,
    That's called the "fully loaded" cost of an employee. It varies quite a bit from company to company.

    Some poor contractor works for me. He sees $18/hour. I pay his company $32/hour for the pleasure of having him at my beckoning call. $32 is the fully loaded cost.
    People will forget what you said... and people will forget what you did... but people will never forget how you made them feel.

  20. #40
    TypicalWhitePerson JC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadDoctor View Post

    LOL, not quite.
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