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Thread: Universal Healthcare: How to git'r done for the US

  1. #101
    ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ downhill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    If that wasn't true, our debt to income ratio wouldn't be were it is, now would it... Look at what has happened to the housing market. Blame Bush because people don't read and understand contracts and what ARM and balloons are? Over extend themselves with out giving it a second thought? The amount Americans save has been dropping for many years. Way before Bush... I know that you would like to blame him, but the facts show that we have been living way above our means for many years, and it's finally catching up to us...
    Our society is vastly living and dependent on credit. Much different than "the good ole days" of old.

    Of course, your parents standard of living was far different than yours, no? I am sure that they enjoyed all of the luxuries that were available then, right? No sacrifices, they bought whatever they wanted, right?

    Sure they sacrificed when needed. So do I and most people I know.

    My parents? My dad died young but he had pretty much everything everyone else did, growing up. He started working in my grandfathers store when he was 10 for nothing. He worked after school and weekends on the premise that my grandfather would put him or at least help put him through collage. When he graduated high school, well, lets just say that didn't happen so he went into the Army during the Koran conflict. This was when the G.I. Bill actually MEANT something. Remember that one? The one that's been pretty much watered down from Reagan to the current admin?

    My Mom? She did fine considering she had to raise four kids on her own so Ken..I know where your headed but for my parents and even my stepdad, they pretty much had all the material things they wanted fairly early in life and even had some money to play around.

    Medical wasn't near as expensive nor was housing vs what people were making at the time. Gas was pretty cheap too, even considering what wages were at the time.

    Let's see..I was making a buck twenty five in 1970 and gas was 30 cents. Minimum wage is what now? $5.85 and a gallon of gas is what? For most people, over 4 bucks a gallon.

    As to blaming Bush for the mess? Who brought him into the conversation? IMHO, it depends on what you're talking about. The national debt? He had something to do with it but so did his Dad and Reagan. Supply side economics is a huge failure.

    As to the housing crunch? Blame Phil Grame. It was his bill that loosened up the purse strings that led to some of the shenanigans in the housing market and also the Enron scandal as well as the part of the reason for the future markets in oil going nuts. His answer? "People whine to much about the economy." As his wife was one of the auditors for Enron and made a killing with them.

    A more unregulated banking is also to blame. Would you loan a thousand bucks to someone you know is probably irresponsible? Banks do it all the time. They love to issue credit to those they know can barely pay a minimum payment. They like it even better if you miss a few. It certianly wasn't like that when I was growing up. In fact I had a hell of a time even getting a credit card I used for traveling only, despite never missing a car payment, a house payment, a rent payment, utility payment etc. etc. They flat get away with being hugely irresponsible.



    I wasn't comparing universal healthcare to communism. Pure communism is basically everyone earning and having the same thing, no separation of classes. You get a potato, I get a potato... This country was build on free enterprise. You work hard, sacrifice, save and you can get somewhere. You screw off, be irresponsible, whatever, no problem, except realize that you "chose" that...


    Actually you did but now that you've explained yourself, yes that's exactly what communism is in a nutshell.


    The difference now is if we don't have what we want soon enough, we leverage credit until we have no more, then holler for help. I suppose Bush is the reason that bankruptcies had risen so high. Oh wait, most of that was before him. Yeah, John, you are right, stating that Americans live above their means is bull doody, until you open your eyes...


    Some do and I said that. I don't and never have. Do you? In fact I know few who do although I do know it's true. Lots did before the great depression, during the 60's I knew a few people who did, same as the 70's and the 80's and the 90's.

    Sorry John, I don't listen to anyones political opinion BS on the radio or tv. IMHO, it is a useless waste of time that I can't spare.
    That wasn't pointed exatly at you my friend but the truth is, a good many Americans do and imho, some of those aren't exactly noted for being a very reliable source for info.

  2. #102
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shagster View Post
    Actually you are very wrong.

    People didn't like working in factories for 14 hours a day, six days a week because they were unskilled labor. So they tried to push populism to force the rich to take better care of them. This is when a ridiculous amount of Unions popped up. However, that wasn't enough.

    The constant whiners that cried for the government to take better care of them without earning it drove the interest rates down so they could rack up all the credit they felt they deserved. This is turn caused massive amounts of banks to fail.

    As for you claims of foreign issues, again, wrong. Our government tariffed the **** out of imports (which at the time america didn't have much of a reliance on) in a attempt to stimulate the American economy. Europe didn't give America the shaft, it was the other way around.

    I'm very familiar with American history, and what you are pushing for is not a new movement, its is an old one, that failed.


    Hold on...what did I say? Here it is again.

    Once banking and trade with Europe failed

    So how in the blue hell am I wrong if we're saying the same thing?


    And for the record, again ,it is you that has a very narrow view of the Depression and it's causes.

    It was a worldwide problem....it was not a US issue only. Who taught you that crap that you are spewing? All countries raised import tariff''s and thus created protectionism internally which in turn caused the circle to keep perpetuating itself.

    It was a result of bad economic decisions, each one compounding the other.


    The drought that hit the US....the ones that caused the dustbowls were also one of the largest factors to the Depression.


    Take a gander at this:

    Conclusion

    So the three main factors contributing to the severity of the Great Depression were:

    1. The over-stimulated economic euphoria of the 1920s.
    2. The draconian monetary policy pursued by the Federal Reserve Bank from 1930-1933.
    3. The sudden rise of global protectionism leading to the collapse of world trade. The dramatic rise of income taxes in 1932 may have also prolonged the downturn.

    There were many other factors which made the human experience much worse than it had to be such as the lack of adequate social safety nets like Unemployment Insurance, Social Security, Medicare, and Welfare programs. These programs were mostly implemented in response to the Great Depression and have well served the function of automatic economic stabilizers since. It is morbidly amusing to witness policy debate over such programs by politicians these days who have forgotten the depression. When times are good, those in need are seen as anomalous social groups and social programs become ill funded and pejorative. Perhaps it takes a Great Depression once in a while to remind us that we are all cut from the same cloth. It is just a matter of time.

    From this source:

    http://www.shambhala.org/business/go...n/causdep.html

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  3. #103
    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    What is the difference in a man in Africa or Brazil or a man in France or the USA?

    They both bleed and feel pain, hunger, love... We, the US are choosing to actually cause more harm to our people when in truth, if we actually gave a squat about man, there are many better ways to do it. Our people have become so spoiled, dependent and reliant on others they can't or don't want to do anything for themselves. Just because we were born here in the USA? What if you were born in South Africa?... You don't choose where you are born. And in truth, just being born in the USA makes you far luckier than 90% of the people born elsewhere in the world. Remember, there are far more poor & under developed countries, far more...

    Our media has caused us to put such a high value on life that we forget death is a part of it. OMG, someone died! Unfortunate, but a part of everyday life. And with good reason as our population in the world is already taxing all of it's resources. Yes, I support and fight for cancer, among other things, many other things. However, I realize that it is a part of life, an unfortunate part of life.

    This country is heading for a huge crash or rude awakening. Not as a result of just our President. This has been building for years, many Presidents, many bad decisions. Again, the true effects take years to realize. We have gotten too big for our britches... And that my friend, is exactly the point... We want everything,...for nothing...

    We buy large and unnecessary houses, wasting resources, yet we cry when a tree gets cut down. It is OK if it is for my house, but I have a house so screw everyone else, cut no more trees down!

    We have more cars than we can drive, nice, new with every feature imaginable. Go where we want, when we want. We can get the gas from another area/country, no problem, but lets don't get it from where I can see it or where it may affect me...

    Is that not hypocritical? I'm just curious, perhaps ignorant...

    We are so worried about what society can and will do for us, yet we do nothing really for society. Oh yeah, we can pump our egos and tell ourselves that we care for the environment (ours, not someone else's) and we demand all of the resources that we want, cheap. (don't inconvenience me though) we can petition to save humanity when in truth we are doing nothing more than teaching people to be dependent, yet we can hold our head high feeling like we are good people...

    I won't be cold and go into further depth on who deserves what as I am not God or a judge, but I do have an eye open and see reality, and I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express before...

    Health insurance would not be a problem for lower and middle if they used good judgment and realized that they have to look out for themselves and not expect society to bail them out. Keep in mind that insurance is only needed if you have an accident or get a disease. Much of that is preventable... Again, lets do what we want and if the ch|t hits the fan, someone will bail me out! That's real intelligent. I mean dependant...

    Even the poorest of poor in the US is rich on a world standard...
    O get off your high horse. Let's talk about America instead of those people over there and those people over there. What can we do for Americans? Would you want a weaker military simply because some other county can't defend themselves? No of course not and we should not have a lesser health care system simply because some other country is worst off the us. It makes not sense to say well those people over there have it way bad so I guess it's ok for us not to improve on what we have. How about instead of saying well we are going to die anyways so who gives a rats butt about health care we use our brains a little. I mean come on get real. Also this talk about how the poor can get the health care they need is BS. Sure they get health care but nothing that should be acceptable for the greatest nation on earth. In fact it's nothing but a weak gesture to easy the minds of people like you.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Stephen Hawking

  4. #104
    ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ downhill's Avatar
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    Jeremy, let's be a bit more respectful here. No insulting, please.

  5. #105
    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downhill View Post
    Jeremy, let's be a bit more respectful here. No insulting, please.

    You should have seen it before the edit. But I am not apologizing not after what my family and I have been trough. I am done being sweet about these things. As a mod do what you have to do I will understand.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Stephen Hawking

  6. #106
    TypicalWhitePerson JC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyboycool View Post
    You should have seen it before the edit. But I am not apologizing not after what my family and I have been trough. I am done being sweet about these things. As a mod do what you have to do I will understand.
    Talk about a kick in the Nads!
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  7. #107
    TypicalWhitePerson JC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyboycool View Post
    You should have seen it before the edit. But I am not apologizing not after what my family and I have been trough. I am done being sweet about these things. As a mod do what you have to do I will understand.
    Explain what you and your family have been through.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
    Explain what you and your family have been through.
    Ignore that, Jeremy. You don't have to appease anyone here to have an opinion.

    I'm still asking though, that you be resonable in your posts. No insulting. You can easily get your message across without insulting.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by downhill View Post
    Boy is that a myopic view of what led to the great depression. Got a text book I can read with that pov?
    You have a pov of your own or do you just insult people and that is good enough?

  10. #110
    TypicalWhitePerson JC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downhill View Post
    Ignore that, Jeremy. You don't have to appease anyone here to have an opinion.

    I'm still asking though, that you be resonable in your posts. No insulting. You can easily get your message across without insulting.

    WTF!!!! Ignore that
    Why not just delete the damn post! If you don't like it.

    He stated something about his situation, and I wanted more info.
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  11. #111
    TypicalWhitePerson JC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shagster View Post
    You have a pov of your own or do you just insult people and that is good enough?

    Hey now, this has been settled, DH does not insult people according to DH.
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  12. #112
    TypicalWhitePerson JC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downhill View Post
    Ignore that, Jeremy. You don't have to appease anyone here to have an opinion.

    I'm still asking though, that you be resonable in your posts. No insulting. You can easily get your message across without insulting.

    Who's posting for you these days, Mouse?
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  13. #113
    Forum Techie A_old's Avatar
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    keep it civil guys, come on. the fact is no matter who gets elected, the same ****'s going to happen: broken promises

  14. #114
    ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ downhill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
    Hey now, this has been settled, DH does not insult people according to DH.

    I don't and that wasn't an insult. I'm curious as to where that specific info came from.

    As to the other issue, I'd say it's none of our business.

    Now lets talk about insulting posts here, JC. You seem to have stepped it up a bit since Prey left, no?

  15. #115
    Junior Member MadDoctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
    Explain what you and your family have been through.
    Do you care what he's been through or are you positioning for a kill? Some (not me of course) would say that regardless of what he and his family have been through, you will find cause to shoot him in the gut.

    As far as the thread topic goes, I have not the intelligence or life experiences to have an opinion.
    People will forget what you said... and people will forget what you did... but people will never forget how you made them feel.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadDoctor View Post
    Do you care what he's been through or are you positioning for a kill? Some (not me of course) would say that regardless of what he and his family have been through, you will find cause to shoot him in the gut.

    As far as the thread topic goes, I have not the intelligence or life experiences to have an opinion.
    National healthcare won't cover sheep.

  17. #117
    Junior Member MadDoctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shagster View Post
    National healthcare won't cover sheep.
    Well crap. Thanks for compressing an endless discussion (that has been going on for years and years) down to the important line item.

    *damn*
    People will forget what you said... and people will forget what you did... but people will never forget how you made them feel.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by UOD View Post
    Hold on...what did I say? Here it is again.

    So how in the blue hell am I wrong if we're saying the same thing?

    And for the record, again ,it is you that has a very narrow view of the Depression and it's causes.

    It was a worldwide problem....it was not a US issue only. Who taught you that crap that you are spewing? All countries raised import tariff''s and thus created protectionism internally which in turn caused the circle to keep perpetuating itself.

    It was a result of bad economic decisions, each one compounding the other.

    The drought that hit the US....the ones that caused the dustbowls were also one of the largest factors to the Depression.

    Take a gander at this:

    From this source:

    http://www.shambhala.org/business/go...n/causdep.html
    Nothing bank wise failed with Europe, and we blatantly ended trade with them. Nothing 'failed' short of our congresses attempt to help the depressions by halting trade with foreign competitors.

    And of course I gave you a simple description of its causes. Its called hitting the major points. I'm not gonna write a history book to prove a point.

    Income tax was NOT a major factor as only around 1 million americans paid it at the time. What did I just say? Poor people didn't pay tax and the system still took a ****? OMG. It wasn't until after WW2 that income tax became a major factor in US revenue. As for your other two points from your source, they confirm my statements.

    But at least you told me im an idiot and included some 'counter' info rather that just call me an idiot like another poster.

    However, it seems to me that you just wanna drag this forum to a new low by insulting people who don't agree with you rather than have a half decent debate over an issue. None of the forum here are worth reading anymore, so I'm jsut gonna drag the little speedguide forums buttom of my links. Sorry I insulted your ego by offering a professional counter argument.

  19. #119
    Freedom Fighter jeremyboycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downhill View Post
    Ignore that, Jeremy. You don't have to appease anyone here to have an opinion.

    I'm still asking though, that you be resonable in your posts. No insulting. You can easily get your message across without insulting.
    Sorry Downhill for my outburst and Ken I am also sorry for being a jackass. It's a touchy subject for. I'll do better to keep my emotions in check.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Stephen Hawking

  20. #120
    Junior Member MadDoctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shagster View Post
    I'm jsut gonna drag the little speedguide forums buttom of my links. Sorry I insulted your ego by offering a professional counter argument.
    That's one way to go.

    Another way to go is to stay. Don't stay for the win. Don't leave because you might loose. Stay because some people here make you laugh in what can be a very hurtful world. No one can inflict personal damage with words if you don't allow it.

    There are a few people here I don't care for (I know. What a shocker). Those few can call my mother a *****, my wife a dick sucking slut and call me a gutless hunk of crap and I could care less. They don't have my respect so what they say is null.

    Your call. Live your life the way you must but don't leave a fight because of the odds.
    People will forget what you said... and people will forget what you did... but people will never forget how you made them feel.

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