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Thread: Universal Healthcare: How to git'r done for the US

  1. #81
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David View Post
    UOD,

    Who would you characterize as "rich"?

    6 minute mile, not bad.

    david

    I would consider myself to be rich. If I were to total all of my military benefits alongside of my pay, I make about $74K a year. If I was told I had to pay $100 a month for a universal healthcare fund, I could do that easily.


    I live in a "luxury apartment" in a very well to do area. My rent is $1300 a month. I pay all utilities and I buy my own firewood as I have a fireplace. I don't have any debt. I have an 11 yr old truck....pay about $200 a year in insurance through USAA, I don't buy clothes for myself as everything still fits although I recently went to Target and bought 2 new pairs of shorts and shirts that were $14 each. That was a first for me since year 2000. the rest of my pay goes toward Mackenzie and food.

    I'd say I am rich but I also realize it's relative.

    I will say that I am NOT poor.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  2. #82
    Assistant Admin Ken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David View Post
    1. Selective in comparison? No, just keeping it apples to apples. Indeed much of the world has it worse than we do. Are they begging? Good question. If they were, who would listen.

    2. Said irresponsibility is no stranger to all social strata, however health issurance is less of a problem for the better off.
    What is the difference in a man in Africa or Brazil or a man in France or the USA?

    They both bleed and feel pain, hunger, love... We, the US are choosing to actually cause more harm to our people when in truth, if we actually gave a squat about man, there are many better ways to do it. Our people have become so spoiled, dependent and reliant on others they can't or don't want to do anything for themselves. Just because we were born here in the USA? What if you were born in South Africa?... You don't choose where you are born. And in truth, just being born in the USA makes you far luckier than 90% of the people born elsewhere in the world. Remember, there are far more poor & under developed countries, far more...

    Our media has caused us to put such a high value on life that we forget death is a part of it. OMG, someone died! Unfortunate, but a part of everyday life. And with good reason as our population in the world is already taxing all of it's resources. Yes, I support and fight for cancer, among other things, many other things. However, I realize that it is a part of life, an unfortunate part of life.

    This country is heading for a huge crash or rude awakening. Not as a result of just our President. This has been building for years, many Presidents, many bad decisions. Again, the true effects take years to realize. We have gotten too big for our britches... And that my friend, is exactly the point... We want everything,...for nothing...

    We buy large and unnecessary houses, wasting resources, yet we cry when a tree gets cut down. It is OK if it is for my house, but I have a house so screw everyone else, cut no more trees down!

    We have more cars than we can drive, nice, new with every feature imaginable. Go where we want, when we want. We can get the gas from another area/country, no problem, but lets don't get it from where I can see it or where it may affect me...

    Is that not hypocritical? I'm just curious, perhaps ignorant...

    We are so worried about what society can and will do for us, yet we do nothing really for society. Oh yeah, we can pump our egos and tell ourselves that we care for the environment (ours, not someone else's) and we demand all of the resources that we want, cheap. (don't inconvenience me though) we can petition to save humanity when in truth we are doing nothing more than teaching people to be dependent, yet we can hold our head high feeling like we are good people...

    I won't be cold and go into further depth on who deserves what as I am not God or a judge, but I do have an eye open and see reality, and I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express before...

    Health insurance would not be a problem for lower and middle if they used good judgment and realized that they have to look out for themselves and not expect society to bail them out. Keep in mind that insurance is only needed if you have an accident or get a disease. Much of that is preventable... Again, lets do what we want and if the ch|t hits the fan, someone will bail me out! That's real intelligent. I mean dependant...

    Even the poorest of poor in the US is rich on a world standard...

  3. #83
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tao_jones View Post
    My worry about fed funded healthcare is that it might take the montary incentive out of becoming a doctor..gotta pay those student loans back somehow. While I agree that universal healthcare would be a great benefit to all those in need I wonder if it would "work" in our system.

    One of the obstacles to change is perception. Taking the best of the best systems out there doesn't necessarily equate to a federally funded system. Gains might be found in simple government mandated reforms.

    We need to try....we need to act first to see what works. Right now, all we do is the same...nothing.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    Sadly, the lower and middle classes choose to be irresponsible... They want to live above their means...

    while the rich live above their "needs".



    The truly rich are getting rich at the expense of someone.


    I also want to state that I place ZERO value in Martha Stewart. Think about that statement long and hard.


    and since it hasn't been said....if we hadn't wasted our money in Iraq......

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  5. #85
    Assistant Admin Ken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downhill View Post
    Bull pucky that might be true for some but that's a pretty general statement there.

    Secondly, universal health care isn't exactly communism although it might be a bit closer to socialism. Depends on the country you live in. That word is thrown around carelessly to raise the hackles of the John Birchers and those still in the McCarthy era.

    If that wasn't true, our debt to income ratio wouldn't be were it is, now would it... Look at what has happened to the housing market. Blame Bush because people don't read and understand contracts and what ARM and balloons are? Over extend themselves with out giving it a second thought? The amount Americans save has been dropping for many years. Way before Bush... I know that you would like to blame him, but the facts show that we have been living way above our means for many years, and it's finally catching up to us...
    Our society is vastly living and dependent on credit. Much different than "the good ole days" of old.

    Of course, your parents standard of living was far different than yours, no? I am sure that they enjoyed all of the luxuries that were available then, right? No sacrifices, they bought whatever they wanted, right?

    I wasn't comparing universal healthcare to communism. Pure communism is basically everyone earning and having the same thing, no separation of classes. You get a potato, I get a potato... This country was build on free enterprise. You work hard, sacrifice, save and you can get somewhere. You screw off, be irresponsible, whatever, no problem, except realize that you "chose" that...
    The difference now is if we don't have what we want soon enough, we leverage credit until we have no more, then holler for help. I suppose Bush is the reason that bankruptcies had risen so high. Oh wait, most of that was before him. Yeah, John, you are right, stating that Americans live above their means is bull doody, until you open your eyes...

    Sorry John, I don't listen to anyones political opinion BS on the radio or tv. IMHO, it is a useless waste of time that I can't spare.

  6. #86
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    The idea that the rich should pay for the poor is unconstitutional. If you feel well off and want to help others pay for health insurance, then kudos to you. However, the idea that people who have made wealth via exercising capitalism should be responsible for others inability to care for themselves is scary to me.

    The idea that you can make tons of money and not have to share it with anyone unless you choose to is why our nation has become such an industrial powerhouse.

    As much as someone helping pay for my health insurance sounds wonderful, I cannot look past the fact that it is wrong to make my burdens someone elses responsibility. If you are having issues maintaining the lifestyle you feel you require, then work harder and you will reap the benefits. Don't cry and play the 'im a victim of poverty' card.

  7. #87
    Assistant Admin Ken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UOD View Post
    while the rich live above their "needs".



    The truly rich are getting rich at the expense of someone.


    I also want to state that I place ZERO value in Martha Stewart. Think about that statement long and hard.


    and since it hasn't been said....if we hadn't wasted our money in Iraq......
    Hey, this is America. We can do what we want. I came from nothing. Poor farm people. I busted my a$$ and didn't have help from many, nor did I have the balls to ask others for it... If I wanted it, I earned it, or I didn't get it. The same way that your parents did. Instead of worrying about how much I make and how much can be taken from me, the people need to take responsibility and worry about themselves, the same way that I had to do it...

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shagster View Post
    The idea that the rich should pay for the poor is unconstitutional. If you feel well off and want to help others pay for health insurance, then kudos to you. However, the idea that people who have made wealth via exercising capitalism should be responsible for others inability to care for themselves is scary to me.

    The idea that you can make tons of money and not have to share it with anyone unless you choose to is why our nation has become such an industrial powerhouse.

    As much as someone helping pay for my health insurance sounds wonderful, I cannot look past the fact that it is wrong to make my burdens someone elses responsibility. If you are having issues maintaining the lifestyle you feel you require, then work harder and you will reap the benefits. Don't cry and play the 'im a victim of poverty' card.

    If we are such an industrial powerhouse, then why can't we take care of our own health, why is it's quality the last on any list of other industrialized nations and why can't we kick the snot out of guys with AK-47's and IED's?????????????????

    It's all a circle of dominos.


    One last thing.....what is the frequency of illness in this country?

    It would do my heart good Shagster if you'd fully read the NPR stuff I posted because there is some great stuff in there. Like weening people off of unnecessary meds, being more proactive in prevention matters etc.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    Hey, this is America. We can do what we want. I came from nothing. Poor farm people. I busted my a$$ and didn't have help from many, nor did I have the balls to ask others for it... If I wanted it, I earned it, or I didn't get it. The same way that your parents did. Instead of worrying about how much I make and how much can be taken from me, the people need to take responsibility and worry about themselves, the same way that I had to do it...

    When was the last time you were in West Virginia?


    Some folks can't take care of anything and it's not because they don't want to. My friends in WV built their own houses, hunt for their own food, drill wellls for their own water, etc.


    The child that you help now may be the future doctor that saves your eyesight.


    I'm kind of surprised by your attitude on this actually because I could say the same thing but in different terms. For example, when jihad comes to the streets of America, don't ask me to protect you or to provide for your safety and security...you need to take responsibility and worry about themselves, the same way that I had to do it...


    And no, having guns in your home doesn't mean jack....more than likely, you'd wind up a casualty and then we'd also have to provide for your healthcare.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  10. #90
    TypicalWhitePerson JC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UOD View Post
    If we are such an industrial powerhouse, then why can't we take care of our own health, why is it's quality the last on any list of other industrialized nations and why can't we kick the snot out of guys with AK-47's and IED's?????????????????

    It's all a circle of dominos.


    One last thing.....what is the frequency of illness in this country?

    It would do my heart good Shagster if you'd fully read the NPR stuff I posted because there is some great stuff in there. Like weening people off of unnecessary meds, being more proactive in prevention matters etc.

    Once again show me in the constitution where it's the governments responsability ?
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  11. #91
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    Before you go too crazy with this idea, read up on Populism, which is actually what you are describing.

    Populism was one of the factors that led our nation into the great depression.

  12. #92
    Assistant Admin Ken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UOD View Post
    When was the last time you were in West Virginia?


    Some folks can't take care of anything and it's not because they don't want to. My friends in WV built their own houses, hunt for their own food, drill wellls for their own water, etc.


    The child that you help now may be the future doctor that saves your eyesight.


    I'm kind of surprised by your attitude on this actually because I could say the same thing but in different terms. For example, when jihad comes to the streets of America, don't ask me to protect you or to provide for your safety and security...you need to take responsibility and worry about themselves, the same way that I had to do it...


    And no, having guns in your home doesn't mean jack....more than likely, you'd wind up a casualty and then we'd also have to provide for your healthcare.
    Sorry, Evan, that logic doesn't fly with me. I pay my taxes and support my country...

    I just don't see it as a positive giving more when all it does is increase dependency and decrease motivation... In a system and country that is far abused already...

    I am not saying let them die in the streets, don't ad lib. Although, in MOST countries, that is the way it is... You, of all people on this board, should know this.

    People that can't afford healthcare do have the opportunity to have it provided for them. I have been watching this for the past year and a half. And you know what, the same people that didn't have to pay, had new clothes and shoes and jewelery. You have money to buy gold, but you can't pay your doctor bill, explain that please...

    Let me help, it's called a lack of responsibility, beating, and abusing the system, bad financial management. Don't stand there telling me how poor you are while you drive up with an aftermarket stereo with music so loud that it's annoying to everyone, playing with your gold chains, cell phones, new clothes and shoes. You see Evan, if you can't afford healthcare, how do you afford those luxury and unnecessary items? This is not the exception, it has become the rule... To the point that it was pissing me off watching them get away with it.

    Also, keep in mind that your credit can't be ruined if you make an attempt to pay your bill. That means that you can pay $10 a month forever, no problem. Make your point...

    Kudos to your friends from WV as that is the way this country has done for centuries. Why is it different now? Are we too good to do what our ancestors did? Just asking...

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shagster View Post
    Before you go too crazy with this idea, read up on Populism, which is actually what you are describing.

    Populism was one of the factors that led our nation into the great depression.

    LOL, and what lead to our current state of affairs????????????

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  14. #94
    Assistant Admin Ken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UOD View Post
    LOL, and what lead to our current state of affairs????????????
    Entertainment and lack of reponsibility, ...next!

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    Sorry, Evan, that logic doesn't fly with me. I pay my taxes and support my country...

    I just don't see it as a positive giving more when all it does is increase dependency and decrease motivation... In a system and country that is far abused already...

    I am not saying let them die in the streets, don't ad lib. Although, in MOST countries, that is the way it is... You, of all people on this board, should know this.

    People that can't afford healthcare do have the opportunity to have it provided for them. I have been watching this for the past year and a half. And you know what, the same people that didn't have to pay, had new clothes and shoes and jewelery. You have money to buy gold, but you can't pay your doctor bill, explain that please...

    Let me help, it's called a lack of responsibility, beating, and abusing the system, bad financial management. Don't stand there telling me how poor you are while you drive up with an aftermarket stereo with music so loud that it's annoying to everyone, playing with your gold chains, cell phones, new clothes and shoes. You see Evan, if you can't afford healthcare, how do you afford those luxury and unnecessary items? This is not the exception, it has become the rule... To the point that it was pissing me off watching them get away with it.

    Also, keep in mind that your credit can't be ruined if you make an attempt to pay your bill. That means that you can pay $10 a month forever, no problem. Make your point...

    Kudos to your friends from WV that is the way this country has done for centuries. Why is it different now? Are we too good to do what our ancestors did? Just asking...


    Ken, who said that you would absolutley have to give more? If reforms are made and if leaders are elected that can find efficiencies within our bureaucracy, you might...just might have to pay LESS.

    Look, abuse is one factor that needs to be addressed...but it is part of the circle of failure in this country.

    Health should NOT ever be a partisan issue. It currently is because of ignorance and because it takes away money from other less deserving partisan programs.


    I see healthcare as the catalyst for real change across the board.
    Last edited by JawZ; 07-28-08 at 06:25 PM.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  16. #96
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shagster View Post
    Before you go too crazy with this idea, read up on Populism, which is actually what you are describing.

    Populism was one of the factors that led our nation into the great depression.

    Ok, now that someone answered for you, I'll continue.


    No, the Great Depression wasn't caused by an ideology. Again, it was a circle of failures that depended on the other for a progression of failures. Once banking and trade with Europe failed, people stopped buying, and once the drought hit, it just kept the circle going. It was global as well.

    What the Great Depression enabled was the populist movement in Germany to take hold and give rise to Fascism. I would think you'd be familiar with that since you sit so close to the right.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
    Once again show me in the constitution where it's the governments responsability ?

    Show me in the dictionary what "responsability" is then I'll be able to answer. We can play games all day JC. Now I've been told that I'm picking on you and making you emo and wanting to cut yourself. So before you go off the deep end and bring harm to yourself, know this:

    911 is the number you should dial in the event of an emergency.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by UOD View Post
    No, the Great Depression wasn't caused by an ideology. Again, it was a circle of failures that depended on the other for a progression of failures. Once banking and trade with Europe failed, people stopped buying, and once the drought hit, it just kept the circle going. It was global as well.
    Actually you are very wrong.

    People didn't like working in factories for 14 hours a day, six days a week because they were unskilled labor. So they tried to push populism to force the rich to take better care of them. This is when a ridiculous amount of Unions popped up. However, that wasn't enough.

    The constant whiners that cried for the government to take better care of them without earning it drove the interest rates down so they could rack up all the credit they felt they deserved. This is turn caused massive amounts of banks to fail.

    As for you claims of foreign issues, again, wrong. Our government tariffed the **** out of imports (which at the time america didn't have much of a reliance on) in a attempt to stimulate the American economy. Europe didn't give America the shaft, it was the other way around.

    I'm very familiar with American history, and what you are pushing for is not a new movement, its is an old one, that failed.

  19. #99
    TypicalWhitePerson JC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UOD View Post
    Show me in the dictionary what "responsability" is then I'll be able to answer. We can play games all day JC. Now I've been told that I'm picking on you and making you emo and wanting to cut yourself. So before you go off the deep end and bring harm to yourself, know this:

    911 is the number you should dial in the event of an emergency.
    I'm sorry responsibility.
    Picking on me Who told you that?
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  20. #100
    ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ downhill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shagster View Post
    Actually you are very wrong.

    People didn't like working in factories for 14 hours a day, six days a week because they were unskilled labor. So they tried to push populism to force the rich to take better care of them. This is when a ridiculous amount of Unions popped up. However, that wasn't enough.

    The constant whiners that cried for the government to take better care of them without earning it drove the interest rates down so they could rack up all the credit they felt they deserved. This is turn caused massive amounts of banks to fail.

    As for you claims of foreign issues, again, wrong. Our government tariffed the **** out of imports (which at the time america didn't have much of a reliance on) in a attempt to stimulate the American economy. Europe didn't give America the shaft, it was the other way around.

    I'm very familiar with American history, and what you are pushing for is not a new movement, its is an old one, that failed.
    Boy is that a myopic view of what led to the great depression. Got a text book I can read with that pov?

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