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Thread: Are we being any better then them?

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehmet
    You still stand by your statement that the root problem is Islam. I know what you edited, and I quoted you above. That is my problem.

    i did say the root problem of Islamic terrorism is Islam..

    but i also said in the same quote...that not all muslims are terrorists, and i edited my original post because i realized people would take it the wrong way so changed it.

  2. #82
    SG Enthusiast Far-N-Wide's Avatar
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    Americans are not all nice people. In the 1800s alone 10s of thousands of American Indians where killed by the US Army to pave the way for settlers. Do we hide this fact from our history books..? No... We also don't like to talk about it much. We are not nice people when we’re at war. Killing folks is not a humane act; it is best left to professional trained armed forces.

    We also resisted kicking and screaming our way against joining Allies in WW I & II. Had we not participated in those Europe adventures, we would most likely would be speaking German today.

    Had we gave in to the cold war with the Soviets and exposed our soft white "pieman under bellies" and said we're wrong for opposing you. Our natural resources and way of life would have never existed as it does today. I am not naive enough to believe that terrorists will leave us alone. And I am glad our governing leadership agrees with me. We Americans have chose to fight terrorist in their backyard on their turf.

    But Pies ok defending Muslims; just because 19 folks crashed two jets into some towers, is not enough for him to see the big picture on how some musilms are evil and misguided.

    This was an act of war BTW, supported by congress after 911. Yes we are evil for wanting to kill Muslims. But we are looking out for the ones with well-documented plans on killing Americans and all Jews living in the Middle East. Pie would prefer we left the Middle East alone… it’s none of our business. That’s his right to speak his mind but dude is he way wrong… and he needs review history books on how chit escalates if you leave unstable regions like the middle east the way they are.

    I am sorry he has no clue about how stable regions of the world are with US service men and women stationed abroad. I mean both economically & security wise. Are we always welcome over seas? Hell no. Do we know how to behave and act in those countries? Not clearly well enough… so nope again. But we are there, propping up foreign economies and providing loads of stability.

    Look at Germany and Japan today. You bump ugly with the bull we kick your azz. Then we fix up your country by giving all your people things like water, schools, electricity for everyone. We also rebuild your industry, your economy. Restore your way of life. We honor your countries traditional way of life. We let you rule your people. Sadam was never this nice… boy were we evil and naughty for doing this.

    Sure there’s a long lag between getting this restoration process going. But largely these countries are better off. We don’t start wars, but we sure end them and just look where Germany and Japan are today. I think we did well.

    Yes there was a cost… folks die in war, some were innocents killed by our troops. Again something we’d don’t hide or are proud of. It happens, we learn from it. We punish folks who F’d up, apologize and move on.

    Having served seven tours of duty in the sand and personally seen 1st hand our work to liberate an oppressed people. Most largely happy to live free and choose their leadership vs. a dictatorship. Wow that just a no brainier, it’s worth it.

    Pie can disagree, that fine. He’ll have his moment of clarity when those so-called harmless muslins kick up more mischief by killing someone he knows and loves, or more 911s happen in his backyard.

    It makes better sense to fight over there, but if he’d rather have the fight in his backyard. That’s his choice. I’m glad he’s not in charge. I have faith that our Intelligence, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Executive staff, Congress and our entire Department of Defense. They are way smarter folks then he gives them credit.

    I expect more clip and paste of this or that… Supporting stuff he wants to believe. You know stuff he’s not seen 1st hand. It’s ok for him to surf for data that supports what he wants and desires.
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  3. #83
    P/T Pagan God thepieman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Far-N-Wide
    [COLOR=black]
    This was an act of war BTW, supported by congress after 911. Yes we are evil for wanting to kill Muslims. But we are looking out for the ones with well-documented plans on killing Americans and all Jews living in the Middle East. Pie would prefer we left the Middle East alone… it’s none of our business. That’s his right to speak his mind but dude is he way wrong… and he needs review history books on how chit escalates if you leave unstable regions like the middle east the way they are.
    I'd like you to show me an act of war BY WHO??What country attacked us? I'd like you to go to the FBI site itself and look at their wanted list and see if you see Bin Ladens name there as being wanted for even the attack on the WTC or anything to do with 9-11! They don't even have proof as to wether OBL even did it. Sure he said he did it, and before that he denied it.
    As you say you are entitled to speak your opinion...wether you know what you are saying or not. I think you are just happy with the fact that they are just out there killing muslims.
    As far as Israel goes, you can keep your head buried in the sand and continue to think the Israeli government is just a bunch of innocent bystanders in this whole mess, but they are the ones who are putting their citizens in danger by not following UN rules and discontinuing the settlers from building in occupied territories and allowing their citizens as well as their defense forces in the occupied territories to run amuk killing Palestinian civilians and burning houses and factories. You heard radical muslims admitting their guilt but yet you didn't hear why they were admitting their guilt and why they would bring it closer to home for America and Americans. I am not a Neocon waiting for the return of Christ , nor am I a zionist that I'm willing to give up my freedoms in exchange for a government to hold onto a tract of land that could easily be shared among 2 peoples. We are not solving anything by allowing the situation in Israel and Palestine to worsen and on top of it, expand it into other Muslim nations as well by killing other innocent muslims on a daily basis.
    Your solution is to just kill more people and to go after ghosts that may or may not exist. Your solution is expanding the problem. We've been trying your way for several years already and its not getting any better. Its wierd how they don't try the obvious solution and sit both Israel and Palestine down
    and tell them both to get their **** together and to come to an amicable and fair split in the land and to cease attacking each other or face the consequences on BOTH sides.
    You and GH both can continue to try to twist my words around and to insist that Im pro this or anti that, but I'm neither. I have maintained from the beginning that none of them are innocent, none of them are entitled to be in possesion of WMD's and none of them are innocent of endangering the lives of their own people as well as killing innocent civilians. It is YOU and GH and people like you who are one sided and continue to insist that Israel is entitled to have WMD's, that she should be allowed to continue a nuclear program that is not monitored, and that she is just an innocent victim of random attacks. It is you and GH and people like you who make claims that Israel is the victim of threats against her while they routinely threaten neighboring countries with harm, and this is documented and warnings by the UN have gone unheeded. I at least admit that neither side is innocent. You 2 on the other hand will continue to blame one side and act as tho killing people will help. Your way has only brought us into a higher state of security ,and a loss of our freedoms.



    Find a way to seperate the people that want to continue this warring, and the enabling of Israel/Palestine conflict to continue, and the people who want to continue forward with enactments like this Patriot act and domestic wiretapping, from the rest of us "Pieman underbellies" and lets see who has to worry about being attacked by terrorists more. If the piemans get attacked, more then likely it would be by the Far-N-wides dressed as terrorists that want us to fear their government,spit on the constitution,have everyone under surveilance, attack everyones way of life that doesn't conform to theirs and to live like we are in prison camps as they would have everyone who isn't like them be.




    IN THE FUTURE IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT ME , BE A MAN AND TYPE YOUR DAMN MESSAGE IN SOMETHING READABLE. ITS OBVIOUS YOU DO THIS PURPOSEFULLY TO BE A JACKASS, AS YOU HAVE WRITTEN MANY MESSAGES IN NORMAL TEXT COLOR IN THE PAST.
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  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by thepieman
    I'd like you to show me an act of war BY WHO??What country attacked us? I'd like you to go to the FBI site itself and look at their wanted list and see if you see Bin Ladens name there as being wanted for even the attack on the WTC or anything to do with 9-11! They don't even have proof as to wether OBL even did it. Sure he said he did it, and before that he denied it.
    As you say you are entitled to speak your opinion...wether you know what you are saying or not. I think you are just happy with the fact that they are just out there killing muslims.
    As far as Israel goes, you can keep your head buried in the sand and continue to think the Israeli government is just a bunch of innocent bystanders in this whole mess, but they are the ones who are putting their citizens in danger by not following UN rules and discontinuing the settlers from building in occupied territories and allowing their citizens as well as their defense forces in the occupied territories to run amuk killing Palestinian civilians and burning houses and factories. You heard radical muslims admitting their guilt but yet you didn't hear why they were admitting their guilt and why they would bring it closer to home for America and Americans. I am not a Neocon waiting for the return of Christ , nor am I a zionist that I'm willing to give up my freedoms in exchange for a government to hold onto a tract of land that could easily be shared among 2 peoples. We are not solving anything by allowing the situation in Israel and Palestine to worsen and on top of it, expand it into other Muslim nations as well by killing other innocent muslims on a daily basis.
    Your solution is to just kill more people and to go after ghosts that may or may not exist. Your solution is expanding the problem. We've been trying your way for several years already and its not getting any better. Its wierd how they don't try the obvious solution and sit both Israel and Palestine down
    and tell them both to get their **** together and to come to an amicable and fair split in the land and to cease attacking each other or face the consequences on BOTH sides.
    You and GH both can continue to try to twist my words around and to insist that Im pro this or anti that, but I'm neither. I have maintained from the beginning that none of them are innocent, none of them are entitled to be in possesion of WMD's and none of them are innocent of endangering the lives of their own people as well as killing innocent civilians. It is YOU and GH and people like you who are one sided and continue to insist that Israel is entitled to have WMD's, that she should be allowed to continue a nuclear program that is not monitored, and that she is just an innocent victim of random attacks. It is you and GH and people like you who make claims that Israel is the victim of threats against her while they routinely threaten neighboring countries with harm, and this is documented and warnings by the UN have gone unheeded. I at least admit that neither side is innocent. You 2 on the other hand will continue to blame one side and act as tho killing people will help. Your way has only brought us into a higher state of security ,and a loss of our freedoms.



    Find a way to seperate the people that want to continue this warring, and the enabling of Israel/Palestine conflict to continue, and the people who want to continue forward with enactments like this Patriot act and domestic wiretapping, from the rest of us "Pieman underbellies" and lets see who has to worry about being attacked by terrorists more. If the piemans get attacked, more then likely it would be by the Far-N-wides dressed as terrorists that want us to fear their government,spit on the constitution,have everyone under surveilance, attack everyones way of life that doesn't conform to theirs and to live like we are in prison camps as they would have everyone who isn't like them be.




    IN THE FUTURE IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT ME , BE A MAN AND TYPE YOUR DAMN MESSAGE IN SOMETHING READABLE. ITS OBVIOUS YOU DO THIS PURPOSEFULLY TO BE A JACKASS, AS YOU HAVE WRITTEN MANY MESSAGES IN NORMAL TEXT COLOR IN THE PAST.

    So Pie still going to vote for your favirote Mayor Ed Koch for President? LMAO

    You hate Israel so much i am still shocked to see you want him for President.






    If islamic terrorism is becuase of our support of Israel as everyone loves to blame...why were there 17 terrorists plotting to do a big attack in Canada?
    Last edited by Ghosthunter; 06-08-06 at 08:12 AM.

  5. #85
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  6. #86
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosthunter
    root cause is usually within, we all have that free will to do good or evil these terrorists choose to do evil. It simple to me.

    christians have committed similar atrocities right here in America in the form of abortion clinic bombings....so Islam isn't the root cause GH.


    Oppression, perceived or real can lead to radicalism.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by UOD
    christians have committed similar atrocities right here in America in the form of abortion clinic bombings....so Islam isn't the root cause GH.


    Oppression, perceived or real can lead to radicalism.

    we have had very few abortion clinic bombings compared to Islamic terrorism.

    in fact i dont remeber the last time we even seen one. In fact I just looked it up since 1989 there have been 25 murders due to abortion bombings. While I dont agree with bombing clinics I would not call that a major problem or an epidemic, nor would I be extremely worried about it.

    You cannot deny Islamic terrorists are the majority of terrorists who are committing the terrorist attacks on a daily basis esepcially in Africa and Middle East. Their entire religion believes if you kill yourself killing others you will go to heaven.

    Why were 17 islamic terrorists planning on doing a massive attack in Canada? What did Canada have to do with Israel if that is the root cause?

    Right now there are more conlficts with muslims killing other muslims, in fact muslims are killing themselves moreso then any other external nation. They have no problem with killing muslims if they beleive they do not follow their way. Just look at Sudan or other places like Algeria
    Last edited by Ghosthunter; 06-08-06 at 10:28 AM.

  8. #88
    Elite Member Izzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehmet
    Oh god, I don't even know where to begin. Maybe with all of the things they have taken out of context? maybe of the false Hadiths? Maybe of the picking of random verses without relating the rest of the story? Or maybe I should just shut up because nothing I say will have any effect on you.

    Yeah, Honestly, You're wasting your time....he'll never understand.
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  9. #89
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosthunter
    Their entire religion believes if you kill yourself killing others you will go to heaven.

    Blanket statements like this is why you draw such heat to your posts.

    As for my example on root causes and Israel, it was but one of many. I used Israel because you could relate to it.

    The Koran does not espouse salvation through violence....the Bible doesn't either. So again I ask....what is the root cause of radicalism? Do you really think that some people just wake up and say "let's go nuts and kill people"?

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  10. #90
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosthunter
    Why were 17 islamic terrorists planning on doing a massive attack in Canada? What did Canada have to do with Israel if that is the root cause?

    Same reason why the terrorists completed attacks in Spain and in England....because they are supporters of the US.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by UOD
    Blanket statements like this is why you draw such heat to your posts.

    As for my example on root causes and Israel, it was but one of many. I used Israel because you could relate to it.

    The Koran does not espouse salvation through violence....the Bible doesn't either. So again I ask....what is the root cause of radicalism? Do you really think that some people just wake up and say "let's go nuts and kill people"?
    they dont just wake up they are taught this at such an early age.

    Have you ever sesen the books they use in their schools? the hatred that is taught is inngrained in their head.

    If they truly follow muhammed then you know they will have no problem using violence against those who do not beleive the same thing. For them since muhammed was a warlord who did horrible atrocities why would islamic terrorists think twice?


    In analyzing the 93 school textbooks published by the Saudi Ministry of Education and in circulation between 1999 and 2002, the report reveals the widespread presence of contempt towards Western civilization and followers of other religions. Here are the main findings from our report:

    • Islam is taught as the only true religion and Saudi Arabia is the leader of the Muslim world. Islam is presented as the only true religion, while all other religions are presented as false. Consequently, Muslims are portrayed as superior to followers of all other religions. Islam plays the dominant role in state and society, in the judicial and educational systems, and in everyday life. Saudi Arabia assumes, in turn, a leading role in the Muslim world and sees itself as the champion of Islam.

    • Christians and Jews are denounced as infidels. Christians and Jews are presented as enemies of Islam and of Muslims. Therefore, Muslims may not befriend them nor emulate them in any way, lest that lead to love and friendship, which is forbidden.

    • The West is a decaying society on its way to extinction, and is the source of past and present misfortunes of the Muslim world. Western civilization is presented in a state of cultural and religious decline, the symptoms of which are the absence of spirituality, the practice of adultery, and the large number of suicides in Western society. The West is also blamed for desiring world domination and targeting the Muslim world by aggressively promoting Western practices, ideologies, and lifestyle habits among Muslim society. In addition, Saudi school children are taught to reject all notions of Western democracy.

    • Peace between Muslims and non-Muslims is ostensibly rejected. Saudi Arabian schoolbooks, even grammar books, are full of phrases exalting war, jihad, and martyrdom. And though all forms of terror are rejected by the Saudi Arabian schoolbooks, it appears that such prohibitions do not apply to cases that fall in the categories of jihad and martyrdom.

    • The Jews are a wicked nation, characterized by bribery, slyness, deception, and aggressiveness. According to the Saudi schoolbooks, the present Jewish occupation of Palestine constitutes a danger to the neighboring Muslim countries. Zionism is presented as an evil movement, based on ancient Jewish notions.

    • Israel is not recognized as a sovereign state in Saudi Arabian schoolbooks, and its name does not appear on any map. All maps in Saudi schoolbooks bear only the name Palestine. Palestine is presented as a Muslim country occupied by foreigners who defile its Muslim holy places, especially the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. The occupation of Palestine is portrayed as the most crucial problem of the Arabs and the Muslims, who should all join forces for the total liberation of Palestine.

  12. #92
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosthunter
    they dont just wake up they are taught this at such an early age.

    Have you ever sesen the books they use in their schools? the hatred that is taught is inngrained in their head.

    If they truly follow muhammed then you know they will have no problem using violence against those who do not beleive the same thing. For them since muhammed was a warlord who did horrible atrocities why would islamic terrorists think twice?


    Ok, now we are getting somewhere. So why are they taught and conditioned to hate?

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  13. #93
    P/T Pagan God thepieman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosthunter
    Why were 17 islamic terrorists planning on doing a massive attack in Canada? What did Canada have to do with Israel if that is the root cause?

    Right now there are more conlficts with muslims killing other muslims, in fact muslims are killing themselves moreso then any other external nation. They have no problem with killing muslims if they beleive they do not follow their way. Just look at Sudan or other places like Algeria
    You can play dumb but you already know thos guys in Canada were not Al Queda related but like I said its spreading and expanding. We are now just randomly killing people. Its in the news everyday unless you forgot to put on your glasses for the past couple of years.

    I know brothers that fight all the time between themselves but you know what, if someone messes with either one of them they both will come after you.

    I don't like Israels government. So friggin what? Is that supposed to be like a statement that I should be ashamed of when you try to imply that I hate Jews because I hate the government? Its not America. I don't like Syria, I don't like the Lebanese government and Im not too keen on organized religion either...so what about it? Your problem is that you admire their government so much that you don't mind at all if we begin to model ourselves on the way they run things over there and live as their citizens do.
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  14. #94
    Mac Master Mehmet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosthunter
    If they truly follow muhammed then you know they will have no problem using violence against those who do not beleive the same thing. For them since muhammed was a warlord who did horrible atrocities why would islamic terrorists think twice?
    Ghost, I would really start to close your mouth about subjects you know nothing about. Give me your address and I will send you the biography of Muhammad by Martin Lings, the biography that is used in most if not all college-level courses about Islam. In fact, I will send it to you for free, only on the condition that you actually read it instead of going to random internet sites getting your 'facts.'

    To tell you the truth, I really despise the way the middle east runs. The governments are all corrupt, human rights are stepped upon everyday and there isn't one person in the arab world that is willing to reform the place into the incredibly amazing place it was many centuries ago. But yet, I still believe that the way we went upon this 'war on terror' or 'operation <insert middle eastern country here> freedom' was absolutely horrible. We went in for the wrong reasons, at the wrong time, without support. There is no excuse for what we have done, and the only way to fix the damage is to admit what we've done wrong in the recent past, and even before 9/11.
    Last edited by Mehmet; 06-08-06 at 12:46 PM.
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  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by UOD
    Ok, now we are getting somewhere. So why are they taught and conditioned to hate?
    Our own hypocrisies have much to do with it indeed. Couple that with the Koran's teachings and it isn't a mystery.

    Say: 'Obey Allah and the Apostle.' If they pay no heed, then, surely, God does not love the unbelievers." Sura 3:32

    Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers. Sura 5:51


    Christians believe that God loves everyone, but hates sin. Islam believes that God does not love unbelievers.

    Both religions believe that sin is wrong, homosexuality, murder, adultry, etc.. but we by our own doings insist on practicing many abominations and flaunting it as never before. I am not justifying radical Islamist activity by any means, but rather being honest in the fact that we are a sick nation. It isn't just our politicians, businessmen and others that we like to blame it on. It's the ordinary Joe that has little or a twisted view of morailty. We are paying for our sins as a nation.

    There are certainly those Muslims that hate just because, but I'm sure there are also Muslims that believe we are indeed led by Satan. We are setting a horrible example of a nation under God. Look at our TV, entertainment, sexual immorality, hypocrisy, abortion & crime.

    It may sound corny, but it's up to each individual to police their own life before we can expect to be any better than anyone. For those that know my opinions, it may seem like a deviation from the norm, but I'm tired of people blaming everything on the Whitehouse when it starts in your own house.
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  16. #96
    P/T Pagan God thepieman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosthunter
    they dont just wake up they are taught this at such an early age.

    Have you ever sesen the books they use in their schools? the hatred that is taught is inngrained in their head.

    If they truly follow muhammed then you know they will have no problem using violence against those who do not beleive the same thing. For them since muhammed was a warlord who did horrible atrocities why would islamic terrorists think twice?
    You can continue to try and spew your one sided hate and try to confuse and convince people that you are being honest and truthful but your just in reality a liar and pitiful person. You know just about as much of the Muslim religion as I do, which is not much. You keep trying to say everyone is after the poor jews and that the muslims are taught to hate the jews when the jews learn the same thing about arabs and muslims. I was searching for this pic I found writtin in both hebrew and english that said KILL ALL ARABS and came upon this little gem. You will of course come up with some BS and say its some form of Hebraic show of love towards arabs by the people of Israel.

    http://s023.dyndns.org/kawther/video...eInHebron1.wmv
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  17. #97
    P/T Pagan God thepieman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmo66
    Our own hypocrisies have much to do with it indeed. Couple that with the Koran's teachings and it isn't a mystery.

    [B][I]Say: 'Obey Allah and the Apostle.' If they pay no heed, then, surely, God does not love the unbelievers." Sura 3:32
    And this is your proof of their hate? LOL Its an accurate statement even from someone back in the 2nd century! The Christians actually believe that they need their all important 150,000 Jews for Jesus to come back and think that everyone thats not saved will burn in hell. The Jews all think that they are the chosen people and will be the only ones to be going to heaven, so are you trying to say that the Muslims are any different or any less because they have a special feeling about their religion too?

    Your statement is nonsense and it doesn't prove anything about hatred. The Bible and Old testament all have messages of hatred and death in them too. Even the murder of ones own children...so what. This is what happens when you all abide by something that was written for a people of a different time.
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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepieman
    And this is your proof of their hate? LOL Its an accurate statement even from someone back in the 2nd century! The Christians actually believe that they need their all important 150,000 Jews for Jesus to come back and think that everyone thats not saved will burn in hell. The Jews all think that they are the chosen people and will be the only ones to be going to heaven, so are you trying to say that the Muslims are any different or any less because they have a special feeling about their religion too?
    A friend of mine wrote a nice little thing about Christian Zionism and why it is anti-semitic, check it out:

    http://yamansalahi.livejournal.com/23045.html
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  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by thepieman
    The Jews all think that they are the chosen people and will be the only ones to be going to heaven

    that not true at all..we are chosen by G-d to peform 613 commandments...trust me you don't want to be Jewish, it not easy be Jewish at all, but i am still proud of being Jewish. In fact all non-jews will still have a place in world to come as long as they follow 7 noachide laws, which are basically the 10 comamndments for most part.

    Judaism believes in tolerance and diversity of other religions such as christianity and muslim...in fact that is the reason why I believe radical terrorists cannot stand the west and Israel, because we allow for people to practice what they want. In fact we do not want people to convert to Judaism at all. We prefer not to.
    Last edited by Ghosthunter; 06-08-06 at 01:49 PM.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehmet
    Ghost, I would really start to close your mouth about subjects you know nothing about. Give me your address and I will send you the biography of Muhammad by Martin Lings, the biography that is used in most if not all college-level courses about Islam. In fact, I will send it to you for free, only on the condition that you actually read it instead of going to random internet sites getting your 'facts.'

    To tell you the truth, I really despise the way the middle east runs. The governments are all corrupt, human rights are stepped upon everyday and there isn't one person in the arab world that is willing to reform the place into the incredibly amazing place it was many centuries ago. But yet, I still believe that the way we went upon this 'war on terror' or 'operation <insert middle eastern country here> freedom' was absolutely horrible. We went in for the wrong reasons, at the wrong time, without support. There is no excuse for what we have done, and the only way to fix the damage is to admit what we've done wrong in the recent past, and even before 9/11.
    muhammed turned on the Jews once they rejected his teachings and either forced them to convert or kill them. I would not call that peace and that was only the start of it.
    Last edited by Ghosthunter; 06-08-06 at 01:43 PM.

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