Un-capping not illegal

[Kip Patterson]

Let's stick with one unit of measure. You said in your initial message that you achieved speeds of:
"This thing now d/l's at 1.2 MB sec and uploads at 500 K sec."

I take that to be bytes. The capacity of the cable channel to which the modem is connected is 27 mbits, shared among all modems on that transmitter in the head end. Each individual user can potentially get 10 megabits, or 1.25 megabytes including overhead. I've never seen a 10 mb ethernet network at anything like 1.2 mbytes.

The upstream channel is 1.536 megabits, again, shared among all modems on that receiver in the head end. That's 191 kbytes.

The upstream channel differs from the downstream channel in that it is polled. All active users are permitted to transmit in rotation, so it is difficult in the face of traffic to get a large percentage of the upstream bandwidth.

The manuals for the system are available at:
http://www.mot.com/MIMS/Multimedia/manuals/index.html

As you will note, the downstream flow is managed actively by the headend, not the modem. You cannot do anything to the modem to overcome the limits set by the head end.

[Violent]

This what you trying to say ?:

CyberSURFR Specifications.
Interfaces:
10BaseT Ethernet Connector
HFC Drop Connector: Female "F" Type

RF Specifications:
Transmitter
Bandwidth: 600 kHz
Data Signaling Rate: 768 kbps
Symbol Rate: 384 ksym/sec
Modulation: pi/4-DQPSK
Transmit Frequency Range: 6 MHz - 42 MHz w/dynamic frequency agility
Input Impedance: 75 Ohms (nominally)
Dynamic Range: 24 - 55 dBmV

Receiver
Bandwidth: 6 MHz
Data Signaling Rate: 30 Mbps
Symbol Rate: 5 Msym/sec
Modulation: 64 QAM
Receive Frequency Range: 65 - 750 MHz w/frequency selectable
Channel Plans: Standard, IRC, HRC
Input Impedance: 75 Ohms (nominally)
Minimum CNR (at receiver): 30 dB
Sensitivity: +5 to -15 dBmV
Group Delay Tolerance: 130 nS

Physical and Environmental
Dimensions: 2 1/2" x 6 5/8" x 9.6"
Weight: 2.8 lbs. (1.3 kgs)
Front Panel LEDs: Power, Test, Cable, PC
Rear Panel Connectors/Controls:
Cable Type F connector
Reset Button
EIA 232 25-pin port - reserved
RJ45 PC/hub connector
Power connection (DIN connector)
Universal Power Supply 100 to 250 VAC, 47 to 63 Hz

Operating Temperature: 0o C to +40o C (+32o F to +104o F)
Safety Specifications: UL 1950; CSA C22.2 No.950; IEC 950; EN 60950; AS/NZS 3260
Emissions: FCC Part 15, Class B; CISPR 22, Class B; EN 55022, Class B; AS/NZ 3548, Class B.
Immunity: EN 50082-1.

I

[jayyy]

I can think of an easier way to resolve whether or not he's telling the truth, Kip -why don't you just have him email you the bloody sniff logs and try it yourself? Or keep tabs on a user here that tries it that you trust?

[Kip Patterson]

Those are the modem specs, for one of the models. There's a newer one, the Cybersurfr wave, which is 37 down 1.53 up.

There are alos manuals for the headend that explain how the caps are implemented, among other things.

[The_Sandman]

Violent send me the logs as well.
DarkChylde19@hotmail.com

[Violent]

check this Kip :
http://www.midsouth.rr.com/rr_new/index.html

click on the "How does it work" link on the left. I thought they had done away with this page but they havent.

hmmm,,,notice near the top of the page:

"The modems are technically capable of throughput speeds of 8 to 27 Mb/s in the downstream path and the upstream path ranges from 1 - 3 Mb/s. "

Road runners own words - not my part of the Road Runner network,,,but this is how they sold it to me. Of course this is the only road runner page I could find with this type of information that is still up after this little fiasco. If ya find more let me know. The original (older type) of the Motorola cable modems were capable of this. I have one of these. The newer ones do not have this capability any more but are limited to 10Mb/s - period - so you were right about the 10 Mb/s but you assumed that I had the same modem everyone else did. I have an older modem, one of the first cybersufr cable modems, the older modems are the ones that are capable of greater then 10 Mb/s - and mine is. This information was also listed in print in the sales literature when the guy showed up at my door to sell me the service while he was canvasing the neighborhood. So doing a little math and using the maximum "technically capable" speeds mentioned on this page:

27 Mb/s = 2.7 Mb/s download (i'm getting 1.2 Mb/s after motorola codes)

3 Mb/s - 300 kb/s upload (but i'm getting 500 K - I dont know why -I just am after motorola codes)

Oh yeah I do not use a 10 Mb Nic like you assumed, I swapped it out for a 100 Mb 3 Com NIC.

So once again, I dont know how it works or why it works - it just does. I think I will spread the codes around a bit - maybe.

Oh well - I am thru with this subject.

BuhBye

Originally posted by Kip Patterson:
Those are the modem specs, for one of the models. There's a newer one, the Cybersurfr wave, which is 37 down 1.53 up.

There are alos manuals for the headend that explain how the caps are implemented, among other things.

[This message has been edited by Violent (edited 07-11-2000).]

[NeoGuyver]

Ooh, me too Can you send me the logs?
Mega_manx4@hotmail.com

Thank you VERY much

[NeoGuyver]

Ooh, me too Can you send me the logs?
Mega_manx4@hotmail.com

Thank you VERY much

[NeoGuyver]

What the Heck?! I didn't post that twice!

[Bouncer]

I'm curious.

Is this download upload speed local to your cable company, or your throughput from other sites?

Functionally what you did was alter your modem to communicate using a wider data path to the headend equipment. Probably by resetting the modem to default factory settings. I sincerely suspect they will terminate your agreement in the not too distant future. By that I mean your altered device is now interacting with their equipment in a way they did not set it up to do. The possible damage this may cause to their equipment on their end could possibly fall back on you since you have deliberately altered your device to operate in a way different than the specifications they provided to it. You are of course, free to run your own cable, to your own headend and buy your own connections to other places.

In addition, if this throughput rate is from other sites, then you are DEFINATELY affecting devices beyond the headend in their system, and they will likely shut you down.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

------------------
"Yeah Baby, YEAH!!!"



[This message has been edited by Bouncer (edited 07-07-2000).]

[Violent]

Bouncer :
This is up and down speeds from the local cable company. I have on fast FTP sites enjoyed 900 k/s plus , with around 800 - 900 k/s being more of a norm for downloads and with averaging around 400 k/s upload on these sites. One site in particular that I get great speed on is ftp.amoco.com - i use this site for testing and routinely get 900 k/s plus down and 500k/s up from it (after the motorola codes)- but this is only with fast uncrowded sites. Of course you know that when you began to look at the net from outside your own domain or network there is too much stuff you need to go thru - slow servers - multiple routers and the like and of course this has an effect on what speeds you end up with - but alas those thinge we can not control.

Before the motorola codes the down speed wasn't all that bad but the up speed sucked. The biggest change here I guess I would have to say , with the codes,is the upload side.

"...altered your device to operate in a way different than the specifications they provided to it."

Well the specifications they sold me are outlined on one of their web pages (look up a few replies in this thread) and I am well within those specifications - and per the judge - legally as well.

You see in my state the cable company does not really decide what they want to do. We have a Public Service Commission which is very active. The cable company is considered a utility and is regulated by the Public Service Commission which will not allow them to remove service without cause , so they can not just disconnect you for no reason. They also are required by law to provide service on demand. So If the court says that i'm operating legally and the judge ordered them to turn it back on, then there is no cause , unless I do not pay the bill or something like that. Even if they do decide to terminate for some reason or other, I will just re-order it and have it re-installed because the law states that as a utility they must provide service on demand -in other words they can not refuse you service as long as you can pay for it.

[Philip]

Interesting... I'd like to look at those logs too. philip@speedguide.net

[DIDS]

Hi Violent,

If possible can I get a copy of those logs?


Thanks,

DIDS



------------------

It Can't Rain All The Time
- Eric Draven (The Crow)

-------------------------

[DIDS]

My e-mail is dids_m@hotmail.com

[cableman]

hi, i wanted to see those codes too =) my email is: sipsi@goplay.com

[Lex Luthor]

Violent,

You sure are a glutten for punishment, huh?

Out of curiousity, I went to ftp.amoco.com

Looks like they don't want anyone there! check this out! Yikes! Just from typing ftp.amoco.com, they are going to report me?

FTP root at ftp.amoco.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are connected to Amoco's ftp server
ftp.amoco.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

06/29/2000 12:55AM Directory 05-31-00 11:49AM -= Your IP Addresses have all been LOGGED and your ISPs will be contacted =-


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Bouncer]

Two things you may want to be aware of:

"...altered your device to operate in a way different than the specifications they provided to it."

"Well the specifications they sold me are outlined on one of their web pages (look up a few replies in this thread) and I am well within those specifications - and per the judge - legally as well."

I did look before I asked. It's specifies a 768kbps (96KBps) return path, but you're utilizing 4mbps (500KBps).

If you altered the amplitude settings at all then you definately altered the device in a way that it interacts with the cable headend. Period. No doubt about it. You are using more or a different frequencies then they assigned to your device, and you may (theoretically at least) damage the equipment at their end by doing so. I doubt it's in your service agreement that you're allowed to damage their equipment or interrupt their operations or service to other users.

"You see in my state the cable company does not really decide what they want to do. We have a Public Service Commission which is very active. The cable company is considered a utility and is regulated by the Public Service Commission which will not allow them to remove service without cause"

(rest snipped for brevity)

You better hold onto that, because no offense, the FCC is VERY likely to say it ISN'T a locally regulated utility. It's a nice argument, and I understand your point. You must also understand that at least TWO FEDERAL COURTS have already ruled that local jurisdictions have NO, ZERO, regulatory authority over cable in this regard.

Specifically, the argument applies to the open access mandates, but the point is still that communities cannot treat data access the way they treat cable TV. It is going to be handled more like a telecomm service. Which means local authorities cannot demand open access, but neither can they demand "service on demand", because they can't demand *anything* when it comes to data transmission (as opposed to One way TV transmission).

Be careful not to apply cable TV standards, to DATA access. They are two entirely different things in the eyes of the Federal Courts.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but that's definately the direction things are going in. One wonders what the courts reaction would be if you had open access, and your frequency altering for instance meant you were using upload frequencies sold or leased to OTHER ISPs and their customers. You see the point I'm sure.

To be fair, RR may let you get away with it because it might be easier not to bother. OTOH, they may fight you to the bitter end, because corporations do that too, especially if they think it's something a lot of people can start doing to alter the behaviour of equipment on their end and disrupt service to other users. You cannot not know by this point that your "alterations" are in fact taking more of the available spectrum and thus making the upload or return service unavailable for other folks who did, in fact, ALSO pay for a theoretical maximum which they can no longer EVER reach because of YOUR alterations to YOUR device. So you are now impacting the other users of the service in your area.

Their most likely course of action is to deny service because the modem is "damaged". That is, in their view, it is not operating within the specifications originally programmed into it by them. Therefore it is damaged, just as if it had been struck by come sort of EMI burst, and was using all new frequencies not programmed into it by them. They will of course restore service, but not to a damaged device.

Again, I think you're in for a longer fight for a couple of reasons. They will probably monitor all your usage for a month or two, and then cut you off, and say "See you in court".

Best of Luck,
-Bouncer-

------------------
"Yeah Baby, YEAH!!!"

[ChromaZone]

Hey Violent!

Great arguments!

p.s. Think i can get a peak at those logs also, would be greatly appreciated?

snoopyluke@hotmail.com

Cheers
ChromaZone


[This message has been edited by ChromaZone (edited 07-07-2000).]

[wee96]

wee96@hotmail.com

pass me the pill! heheh, no really I'd like to take a look as well (as everyone else has been wanting to). Sounds very interesting.

[iBringPain]

Violent, nice job standing up for your rights. I am suprised RR attempted to charge you with a felony (what was the dollar figure?) if I read your post correctly for theft of services. I am no legale begale but I would think it would have been a better move to go to civil court for a judgement of loss revenue from your home. I am not questioning anything you wrote I am just trying to understand it better. It is my understanding Most Motorola modems are uncapped up/down to begin with so I do not believe your system will cause any damage to RR system and I bet the tech guys don;t even care what speed you upload at, problably the only persons who care other than the whinners on this site are the attorneys who are billing RR at $400 a hour. Again nice victory....