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Thread: Why we should cut money on education

  1. #21
    Senior Member tao_jones's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mountainman
    As a teacher, I don't agree with TonyT's idea at ALL because you are basing my pay on the students' will to work and/or learn. A teacher cannot control what the students do.

    Also, how would you measure this "output quality" of teaching based on the things I wrote above ? If you have a good idea for this, it may be worth it. But if you base it on grades or other things like that, it would be an extremely bad idea no matter how you sliced it.

    I am in total agreeance with you...mountainman...I work in sales so I understand that my pay is based off what I sell...you can only motivate people to learn so much...my brother and my best friend are teachers and they definitley arent in it for the money i think the teachers get dis-en-franchised with teaching cause they realize the struggles they face in respect to pay/funding for classes/ and the fact that some parents dont give a damn about the kids education.

    Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it. - JP II

  2. #22
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    Originally posted by mountainman
    As a teacher, I don't agree with TonyT's idea at ALL because you are basing my pay on the students' will to work and/or learn. A teacher cannot control what the students do.

    Also, how would you measure this "output quality" of teaching based on the things I wrote above ? If you have a good idea for this, it may be worth it. But if you base it on grades or other things like that, it would be an extremely bad idea no matter how you sliced it.
    In addition, there will be motivation to force poor student out of a school. This is being done.
    I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer.

  3. #23
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    Re: Re: Re: Why we should cut money on education

    Originally posted by Ghosthunter
    OK let me explain since I really did not explain it well enough on what I think is wrong with education system and why we should not be spending anymore money.

    Now remember I am basing this on the NY Education system, because that is what I know, so things can be different around the country.


    The problem with throwing more money at the system wont fix a single dime. The education system is a big black hole, the more you throw at it, the more it will gladly eat it up but you wont see any return out of it. The reasons being is there are too many people in the system that are not being accounted for what happens to the money.

    Do I think that kids should have old ripped books and buildings falling apart? Of course not, but the problem is no matter how much money you throw at it, they say it is not neigh they need more but never really fix the important issues.


    I agree that the hierarchy and other leeches are drawing funds, however you have yet to prove that none of the money gets to the students, where it matters. Clean house? sure. But you know full well that there are NYC schools that are falling apart with books that since Carter's presidency. Last time I checked, books and building repair costs money.




    The other issue is getting higher quality teachers.

    Now teachers in NYC make a decent salary, some make way over 100K, but they just dont care or are not really great teachers in the first place.

    The other issue is unless parents take an active interest it dont matter how much money is thrown at the system. This is a problem with our society today, people make babies but never take responsibility for when they are growing up, they think they are all cute when they are a baby but get bored of the idea after a few years.


    Last we need to get rid of the political correctness that goes in our schools today. We need to make kids worked harder and feel like they have accomplished not just let them move on the next grade even if they dont meet up to the standards
    The average NY teacher earn less than half of the 100K per annum you suggest. As far as their efficacy might be measured by the tools with which they have to work and the working conditions.

    politically correct
    adj. Abbr. PC
    1. Of, relating to, or supporting broad social, political, and educational change, especially to redress historical injustices in matters such as race, class, gender, and sexual orientation.

    2. Being or perceived as being over concerned with such change, often to the exclusion of other matters.

    The second definition is the over application of PC. Perhaps you are thinking of the term mollycoddle...

    There is that old homily that things can be fixed if someone else just rolls up their sleeves and tries harded.... sigh... naiveté
    How about a lower student to teacher ratio?
    Last edited by nepenthe; 09-17-03 at 03:23 PM.
    I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer.

  4. #24
    Elite Member mountainman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by nepenthe
    In addition, there will be motivation to force poor student out of a school. This is being done.
    They wouldn't "force" poor students out of school because by law they need to be there. What teachers would do (depending on how they are "graded" for pay) is give students higher scores than they earned so they look like they are doing better. There is no way and no one to know how good a teacher is doing besides the teacher themselves. This would become common practice and then EVERYONE is getting cheated.

    Sorry. This just wouldn't work.

  5. #25
    Elite Member mountainman's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Why we should cut money on education

    Originally posted by nepenthe
    How about a lower student to teacher ratio?
    Right now, in the whole USA, the opposite of this is occuring. Schools are cutting back staff, classrooms are being more and more packed of students and everyone is getting less and less personal attention.

    I am really scared of the up and coming teens. They are going to fuc* this country up and do it bad. I'm not kidding at all. When these kids are in charge of us and everything around us, we're all screwed. I could go on and on about why I think this. But, if you know an average teen in the US, you already know what I'm talking about.

    I would advise everyone to buy some property in a foreign country ASAP for when the time comes.


  6. #26
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    mountainman,

    Teachers don't score state mandated proficiency tests. So testing the product (the student) is feasible. We've been doing it for years with the high school proficiency test....students take the test and it goes outside the system.

    I would also add that teachers salary should be based not only on time in (tenure) but education as well. If you're a teacher that just wants to sit on their ass and coast with a 4 year degree, then don't be surprised that your entry level pay sits on its ass as well. Now if you put forth the effort and attain another degree or a masters, doctorate, etc. or get higher certifications then you should reap the benefits of that. Compacted salary guide that is tied in to education for teachers is the best way to do this imho.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  7. #27
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    Originally posted by mountainman
    They wouldn't "force" poor students out of school because by law they need to be there. What teachers would do (depending on how they are "graded" for pay) is give students higher scores than they earned so they look like they are doing better. There is no way and no one to know how good a teacher is doing besides the teacher themselves. This would become common practice and then EVERYONE is getting cheated.

    Sorry. This just wouldn't work.
    They are doing it. Poor students are being pushed into vocational and trade schools. This is happening here in NJ as well as NY.
    I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer.

  8. #28
    Elite Member mountainman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by UOD
    mountainman,

    Teachers don't score state mandated proficiency tests. So testing the product (the student) is feasible. We've been doing it for years with the high school proficiency test....students take the test and it goes outside the system.

    I would also add that teachers salary should be based not only on time in (tenure) but education as well. If you're a teacher that just wants to sit on their ass and coast with a 4 year degree, then don't be surprised that your entry level pay sits on its ass as well. Now if you put forth the effort and attain another degree or a masters, doctorate, etc. or get higher certifications then you should reap the benefits of that. Compacted salary guide that is tied in to education for teachers is the best way to do this imho.
    I agree that raising the pay for someone who is continuing education is a good thing. But... this is already the norm and is obviously not helping anything.

    As far as state mandated tests, all I have to say is . And to have that test as a measure of how well teachers are doing is absolutely ridiculous. People who think otherwise OBVIOUSLY have never taught. It isn't about how good the student does on a standardized math test... it is about how much progress they are making to becoming a good human being and a contributing member of society. Those standardized tests are a joke.

  9. #29
    Elite Member mountainman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by nepenthe
    They are doing it. Poor students are being pushed into vocational and trade schools. This is happening here in NJ as well as NY.
    You said "being forced out of school". You didn't say forced into a vocational school.

    There is nothing wrong with vocational and trade schools. If no one went there to learn those trades, how would those things get done ? True... everyone has a chance in school, but some students don't want to do the book stuff. They want to do the hands-on stuff that these schools provide.

    They are NOT being "pushed into it" by the schools. It is a voluntary educational option.

  10. #30
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    Originally posted by mountainman
    You said "being forced out of school". You didn't say forced into a vocational school.

    There is nothing wrong with vocational and trade schools. If no one went there to learn those trades, how would those things get done ? True... everyone has a chance in school, but some students don't want to do the book stuff. They want to do the hands-on stuff that these schools provide.

    They are NOT being "pushed into it" by the schools. It is a voluntary educational option.
    Reread teach....... I said, ".... forced out of a school"
    I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer.

  11. #31

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Why we should cut money on education

    Originally posted by nepenthe


    I agree that the hierarchy and other leeches are drawing funds, however you have yet to prove that none of the money gets to the students, where it matters. Clean house? sure. But you know full well that there are NYC schools that are falling apart with books that since Carter's presidency. Last time I checked, books and building repair costs money.






    The average NY teacher earn less than half of the 100K per annum you suggest. As far as their efficacy might be measured by the tools with which they have to work and the working conditions.

    politically correct
    adj. Abbr. PC
    1. Of, relating to, or supporting broad social, political, and educational change, especially to redress historical injustices in matters such as race, class, gender, and sexual orientation.

    2. Being or perceived as being over concerned with such change, often to the exclusion of other matters.

    The second definition is the over application of PC. Perhaps you are thinking of the term mollycoddle...

    There is that old homily that things can be fixed if someone else just rolls up their sleeves and tries harded.... sigh... naiveté
    How about a lower student to teacher ratio? [/B]

    I dsiagree while they might not make 100K right off the bat after several years I think it called tenure I forget they make over 100K

    Only reason I know is my wife friends are teachers and they are doing vey well

  12. #32
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why we should cut money on education

    Originally posted by Ghosthunter
    I dsiagree while they might not make 100K right off the bat after several years I think it called tenure I forget they make over 100K

    Only reason I know is my wife friends are teachers and they are doing vey well
    I googled for the information. You may refer to it as well.
    I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer.

  13. #33
    Elite Member TonyT's Avatar
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    As a teacher, I don't agree with TonyT's idea at ALL because you are basing my pay on the students' will to work and/or learn. A teacher cannot control what the students do.

    Also, how would you measure this "output quality" of teaching based on the things I wrote above ? If you have a good idea for this, it may be worth it. But if you base it on grades or other things like that, it would be an extremely bad idea no matter how you sliced it.
    Ok to disagree me. (see my sig)

    A teacher CAN control what the students do IF the teacher supervises instead of teaches. There is a difference between supervising and teaching. A supervisor gives students a target to meet and sees to it that ant barriers the student faces are handled. The student studies on his own and the supervisor supervises. Trouble is that students are NEVER taught how to properly study, let alone use a dictionary. These study basics of learning are ommitted in grammer schooling.

    Output quality can be measured by testing the students ability to apply what he has learned. This is different than current testing. Today's student is not taught how to apply his new found knowledge, but rather he is taught 'how to pass tests'. It is very simple to test for application ability, you simply ask the student 'how could you apply this to an area of life?'. If he cannot tell you how the data is applied to life then he does not know the data or the data learned is actually useless data and should not have been studied to begin with.

    The teacher/supervisor should keep statistics, just like any other occupation where one gets rewarded based upon one's production and production record. Teaching stats that work are:
    1. # of course completions (can be broke down into textbook chapters)
    2. Total Student Points - students keep own stas based upon a point system, e.g points for # of pages read, books completed, chapters finished, practical work, new words learned, demonstrations, lab work, etc etc etc, anything a student does that results in learning can be assigned points.

    If any of above teacher stats are downtrending, then students are learning less

    It is really unfair to use teh pay system that is in use today for teachers, because not all teachers are the same, some are better than others and some are not worth a grain of salt and some are just average. In any other profession, one's pay is directly proportional to one's skill and ability. There would be absolutely no need for a teacher's union IF teachers had the right attitude to begin with and adhered to their original purposes for become a teacher initially, "to educate and help others learn, thereby changings conditions of this world for the better". But unions have got teachers all wrapped up in $, hours worked, excuses why some students don't learn, psychiatric mumbo-jumbo bullsh** learning disorders niot based in any scientific medical facts, and other stuff.

    It is difficult to get agreement on the points I've mentioned because there is so much existing agreement in the current edu system. So much red tape and politics. So much untruth. Yet the stats of our edu system have plummeted sharply in last 40 yrs. Some current stats are false because:
    1. students are taught how to pass state tests so schools do not lose their grannts and funding.
    2. SATs and other similar tests are easier than they used to be and are graded on a state or natl curve.
    3. Declining stats are not promoted by edu system.

    This is NOT a bash on all teachers. Some teachers want the system to change but are too afraid tom speak up or to do anything about it because they are being supressed by the union, piers, own self-importance, etc etc.
    No one has any right to force data on you
    and command you to believe it or else.
    If it is not true for you, it isn't true.

    LRH

  14. #34

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why we should cut money on education

    Originally posted by nepenthe
    I googled for the information. You may refer to it as well.

    google what and where is the link


    me confused? Lol

  15. #35
    Senior Member tao_jones's Avatar
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    i have never heard of a teacher in public schools making 100k a year no matter where you live

    Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it. - JP II

  16. #36
    Originally posted by tao_jones
    i have never heard of a teacher in public schools making 100k a year no matter where you live

    really yeah these two people who are married are both teachers and work fulltime

    they have a much nicer house then I do and own like 3 cars


    dont get me worng they worked hard to get where they are and they deserve it


    i jsut think the media makes it that teachers make a horrible salary and that is why the schools are not good

  17. #37
    Senior Member tao_jones's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ghosthunter
    really yeah these two people who are married are both teachers and work fulltime

    they have a much nicer house then I do and own like 3 cars


    dont get me worng they worked hard to get where they are and they deserve it


    i jsut think the media makes it that teachers make a horrible salary and that is why the schools are not good

    The thing about that is youve got to ask yourself are the in debt to get that type of stuff or did they have money already

    It really depends on what state you live in....my brother almost moved to michigan to make more $$$ because TN doesnt pay *****...his other problem is that because hes taught for a long time school systems have to pay him X-amount and they dont want to do that when they can hire a young kid out of school and not pay them as much

    Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it. - JP II

  18. #38
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why we should cut money on education

    Originally posted by Ghosthunter
    google what and where is the link


    me confused? Lol
    Rather than using a piece of hearsay from a single individual who is doing well, Google "New York teacher salaries"
    Last edited by nepenthe; 09-17-03 at 09:02 PM.
    I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer.

  19. #39

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why we should cut money on education

    Originally posted by nepenthe
    Rather than using a piece of heresay from a single individual who is doing well, Google "New York teacher salaries"

    it not heresy

    i know them persoanlly and know tehy are not lieing


    maybe not everyone makes 100k but a lot do


    but this sort of getting away from the original thread IMO

    you can pay teachers 2 mil it woulndt matter

    because problem dont lie just with the teachers and their salaryy
    Last edited by Ghosthunter; 09-17-03 at 08:52 PM.

  20. #40
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why we should cut money on education

    Originally posted by Ghosthunter
    it not heresy

    i know them persoanlly and know tehy are not lieing


    maybe not everyone makes 100k but a lot do


    but this sort of getting away from the original thread IMO

    you can pay teachers 2 mil it woulndt matter

    because problem dont lie just with the teachers and their salaryy
    heresy.... <snicker>
    hearsay.... look it up. (In fairness, I did misspell it the first time)

    The average is under 50K. I would agree that it is not the so much the salaries but the but the learning materials, student to teacher ratio and the conditions for teaching (building and room size). OF course, graft has some people excising their cut at the expense of our children.

    I would add that the thread did not regard teacher salaries but the total money spent per student.
    I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer.

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