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Thread: Why we should cut money on education

  1. #41
    SG DC Team Member Paft's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TonyT
    Output quality can be measured by testing the students ability to apply what he has learned. This is different than current testing. Today's student is not taught how to apply his new found knowledge, but rather he is taught 'how to pass tests'. It is very simple to test for application ability, you simply ask the student 'how could you apply this to an area of life?'. If he cannot tell you how the data is applied to life then he does not know the data or the data learned is actually useless data and should not have been studied to begin with.
    LISTEN TO THIS MAN, FOR HE KNOWS OF WHAT HE SPEAKS!!

    Perfect example: My Biology class. The teacher came out and said on day 1, "If you learn nothing else from this class, learn how to take a test."

    The real problem is that teachers just aren't in it because they love it. I don't care what the statisticians say, what the tests say, what anything says. Kids will and do learn better from a teacher who is doing the job because they love it, because they are the ones who are willing to take the time to make sure that the kids actually understand what they are doing, and aren't just telling them to "plug in the numbers and see what you get".

  2. #42

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why we should cut money on education

    Originally posted by nepenthe
    heresy.... <snicker>
    hearsay.... look it up. (In fairness, I did misspell it the first time)

    The average is under 50K. I would agree that it is not the so much the salaries but the but the learning materials, student to teacher ratio and the conditions for teaching (building and room size). OF course, graft has some people excising their cut at the expense of our children.

    I would add that the thread did not regard teacher salaries but the total money spent per student.

    True when I said 100k that was not neccasirly the norm but after you put your time in

    I know they did not become a teacher and make that right away

    but still 50k is not bad for someone just coming out of school and maybe only 23 years old

  3. #43
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why we should cut money on education

    Originally posted by Ghosthunter
    True when I said 100k that was not neccasirly the norm but after you put your time in

    I know they did not become a teacher and make that right away

    but still 50k is not bad for someone just coming out of school and maybe only 23 years old
    If the average makes 50K, and some actually peak at 100K, I doubt they start at a reasonable rate.
    I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer.

  4. #44
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    Originally posted by Paft
    LISTEN TO THIS MAN, FOR HE KNOWS OF WHAT HE SPEAKS!!
    Perspective.... I agree that the tests do not say much, however it is not the teachers responsiblity if the given too many students, too few tools and a hostile environment in which to teach.
    I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer.

  5. #45
    SG Enthusiast jayyy's Avatar
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    That study is junk. It measures everything in US dollars- by that measure, some countries could spend their entire gross national product on classrooms and still "get better education for less money".
    The US dollar is 6 times as strong as Denmark's currency- and yet, Denmark spends $8000 US to The US's $10,000!

    The irony of this is that when you take that into account, the countries at the top are the ones spending the most on education, exactly as you would expect.

    Ghosthunter- you say more money isn't the answer, and yet you willingly shell out $350 a month so your daughter can go to a private school. If you could afford to send her to one of the best private schools in the country (for more money), I presume you would. So apparently, for you, paying more money is the answer. So why doesn't the same logic apply to public schools?

    The reason american schools are always "whining" for more money is because their budgets have been either cut or frozen almost consistently since the 1970's. Its not that they're not improving despite money going into it, its that they're declining as less money is being spent. You refer to education as a "black hole". Any major financial expenditure can be reffered to as a "black hole". The military is a "black hole". Does that mean you should cut that? Your mortgage is a "black hole". Does that mean you should close it and sell your house?

    The real problem seems to be that you don't like anything to be publically funded, period. And you don't like paying taxes, period. So why not just say so? Why all this mumbo jumbo about how cutting funding to education won't affect its quality?

  6. #46
    Elite Member TonyT's Avatar
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    Perspective.... I agree that the tests do not say much, however it is not the teachers responsiblity if the given too many students, too few tools and a hostile environment in which to teach.
    Agreed that there is too much political bs and too many students per teacher and too few tools and environment is sometimes hostile.

    However, someone HAS to begin taking responsibility instead of playing 'pass the buck'. The teachers blame the admins, the admins blame the edu board, the edu board blames the state board and the state board blames the feds, the unions and teh teachers. No one is taking responsibility, so it MUST begin with the teachers instructing students how to be responsible and in turn the teachers must be responsible. Responsibility WILL trickle upward or downward as soon as someone starts taking responsibility, anyone.

    The hiostile environment is partially caused by the students' failure to learn in their earlier education. A bright student, one with a grasp of how to study and the purpose of school, will NOT end up in gangs or drugs. These kids turn to gangs and drugs and other activities because they cannot WIN at schooling (among other reasons and causes). They have been led to believe that there is no hope for them anyway because they have been fed bs from their cohorts, parents and teachers such as:
    1. why bother, the system is against you
    2. you have a learning diisorder
    3. you are poor and will never make anything of your life
    4. statistics show that you are destined to do poorly in school (bogus placement tests)
    5. many other such falsehoods.

    There are also other causes of hostile environment, but IF the school environment is made safe for learning then these other causes will have a null effect upon the student and teacher. Metal detectors do not make it safe. Stricter policies do not make it safe. Safety is made by adhering to policies that have been proven to be successful in the past, such as 'if the kid is not here to learn and if he cannot be made to want to be here, and if he intends to disrupt classes, then he does not deserve to be here'. Kick em out. This forces parents to take responsibility or the kid ends up a criminal. What we have today in public schools is:
    1. childcare
    2. kiddie jail
    3. psychiatric based curriculums
    4. feeding pool for treatment of bogus diseases
    5. babysitting
    6. kids off the streets during the day
    7. some learning done by good students
    8. frustrated apathetic teachers
    9. edu based on eligibility for future funding
    10. a lot of other stuff besides schooling and learning.

    The student who has been educated into beleiving that he CAN learn and apply what he has learned does not end up quitting at school or at life. This should be learned in grammar schools, but modern grammar schools are not much more than state run childcare centers. If you want your kid to end up living life at less than his inherent potential, then start out his life in public school!
    No one has any right to force data on you
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  7. #47
    Originally posted by jayyy
    That study is junk. It measures everything in US dollars- by that measure, some countries could spend their entire gross national product on classrooms and still "get better education for less money".
    The US dollar is 6 times as strong as Denmark's currency- and yet, Denmark spends $8000 US to The US's $10,000!

    The irony of this is that when you take that into account, the countries at the top are the ones spending the most on education, exactly as you would expect.

    Ghosthunter- you say more money isn't the answer, and yet you willingly shell out $350 a month so your daughter can go to a private school. If you could afford to send her to one of the best private schools in the country (for more money), I presume you would. So apparently, for you, paying more money is the answer. So why doesn't the same logic apply to public schools?

    The reason american schools are always "whining" for more money is because their budgets have been either cut or frozen almost consistently since the 1970's. Its not that they're not improving despite money going into it, its that they're declining as less money is being spent. You refer to education as a "black hole". Any major financial expenditure can be reffered to as a "black hole". The military is a "black hole". Does that mean you should cut that? Your mortgage is a "black hole". Does that mean you should close it and sell your house?

    The real problem seems to be that you don't like anything to be publically funded, period. And you don't like paying taxes, period. So why not just say so? Why all this mumbo jumbo about how cutting funding to education won't affect its quality?
    I already explained you can throw hundres of millions and nothing will change in fact Bill gates just gave NYC 54 million, think you will see a difference? yeah right...it will go into the black hole

    point is, i dont like city school systems because they dont push my daughter hard enough, it is too politically correct, and most of the kids are not in control, the parenst in teh school dont care, the teahcers while some are good most are not the greatest.

    By sending her to a private school i am giving her an oppurtuninty to be with other kids who parenst care enough to spend the money to send thier child to a private school,

    to not be in a polictically correct school .


    They are very tough, give her lots of homework, have longer days.

    She is being much better prepared for college and the real world. and she is only in the third grade.

  8. #48
    Elite Member TonyT's Avatar
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    Private schooling or home schooling is where it's at man.


    benefits of private schooling:
    My oldest finished school.
    My son is 14 and in 10th grade, doing some 11th grade subjects, he will graduate at 16.

    My youngest girl is 12 and mid 8th grade an don target to gaduate early too.

    Both are avid readers.

    The school they go to requires 85% or above to pass ANY testing and what they miss on tests they must restudy until they can attest to 100% via testing and demonstration. They work at own pace and are sent into next grade as soon as finish the earlier one.

    Yeah, not everybody can afford private schools for their kids, but it is very easy to organize a group of parents and set up one's own home school system. I urge all parents to do so rather than have their kids in public schools.
    No one has any right to force data on you
    and command you to believe it or else.
    If it is not true for you, it isn't true.

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  9. #49
    SG Enthusiast jayyy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ghosthunter
    I already explained you can throw hundres of millions and nothing will change in fact Bill gates just gave NYC 54 million, think you will see a difference? yeah right...it will go into the black hole.
    There are gross inequities in both preparation for and access to college, particularly for historically underserved young people. Years of education reform have largely neglected America's high schools and the result is graduation rates that hover around 70 percent, and are closer to 55 percent for African American and Hispanic youth. For those who make it to college, fewer than half complete their degree.

    The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation focuses its education investments in two primary areas both aimed at addressing this inequity: creating more small high schools and reducing financial barriers to higher education. The foundation is helping large, troubled high schools transform themselves into smaller, more personalized learning environments, while at the same time funding the replication of successful small school models. And to increase the number of talented low-income students who attend and graduate from college, the foundation funds scholarship programs that are helping thousands of students attend college each year.

    .
    And they've donated over 350 million total to help make it happen. You're right. He's wasting his time with these charitable causes, with the black hole of education. All that money won't make any difference

    It sounds like a good school for your daughter. But what if they told you they were going to cut the budget there by a third? How would you feel about that?

  10. #50
    Maneater JawZ's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TonyT
    Private schooling or home schooling is where it's at man.


    benefits of private schooling:
    My oldest finished school.
    My son is 14 and in 10th grade, doing some 11th grade subjects, he will graduate at 16.

    My youngest girl is 12 and mid 8th grade an don target to gaduate early too.

    Both are avid readers.

    The school they go to requires 85% or above to pass ANY testing and what they miss on tests they must restudy until they can attest to 100% via testing and demonstration. They work at own pace and are sent into next grade as soon as finish the earlier one.

    Yeah, not everybody can afford private schools for their kids, but it is very easy to organize a group of parents and set up one's own home school system. I urge all parents to do so rather than have their kids in public schools.

    Some drawbacks to ponder TonyT. First is the peer group. They don't get a chance to interact fully with their peer group. Part of school is learning how to be a citizen, learning how one individual is part of a greater whole. What about proms and dances and school plays and all that extra curricular stuff? What about the arts? You can't teach them to play an instrument and be part of a band or orchestra...you can't teach them a sport AND cheer them on as part of a team. I like home schooling...don't get me wrong. I just aint in love with it.

    How do home schooled children get into college without the depth of the whole person concept?

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  11. #51
    Originally posted by UOD
    Some drawbacks to ponder TonyT. First is the peer group. They don't get a chance to interact fully with their peer group. Part of school is learning how to be a citizen, learning how one individual is part of a greater whole. What about proms and dances and school plays and all that extra curricular stuff? What about the arts? You can't teach them to play an instrument and be part of a band or orchestra...you can't teach them a sport AND cheer them on as part of a team. I like home schooling...don't get me wrong. I just aint in love with it.

    How do home schooled children get into college without the depth of the whole person concept?
    I agree totally that is whY I opted for private school best of both worlds.

  12. #52
    Senior Member Blisster's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why we should cut money on education

    Originally posted by Ghosthunter
    I dsiagree while they might not make 100K right off the bat after several years I think it called tenure I forget they make over 100K

    Only reason I know is my wife friends are teachers and they are doing vey well

    Show me ONE public school teacher at the grammar through high-school level that makes 100k. no ****in way. PHd University professors make ~$120,000, not public school teachers, anywhere.


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  13. #53

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why we should cut money on education

    Originally posted by Blisster
    Show me ONE public school teacher at the grammar through high-school level that makes 100k. no ****in way. PHd University professors make ~$120,000, not public school teachers, anywhere.
    well maybe they are taking it from the money coming in..I have no clue..LOL

  14. #54
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why we should cut money on education

    Originally posted by Blisster
    Show me ONE public school teacher at the grammar through high-school level that makes 100k. no ****in way. PHd University professors make ~$120,000, not public school teachers, anywhere.

    Blisster, in my hometown, population 17,000...Pennsville, NJ, we had quite a few tenured teachers making in excess of 100K. We paid our Superintendent 180K and he was worth every penny. His name was Dr. Ronald Capasso. I know this to be true because I was elected to my hometown's Board of Education when I was a senior in High School. Dr. Capasso was a graduate of Columbia. He was a genius. But.....our school system was one if not the best in all of south Jersey. Of course this fact was one of the reasons why we eventually went to a compacted salary guide because there were too many teachers making that kind of money that didn't really deserve it. They felt that time in service was reason enough. I agree that experience plays a big role in the teaching profession but it sure as hell aint everything. Our first year teachers made in excess of 50K. We have an outstanding school system and this is why the townspeople accept such high salaries. We also have one of the highest paid police departments in the state....and we have zero crime. In fact, our only murder in our town was due to the serial killer Andrew Cunanan. We haven't had a murder or shooting since.

    ...formerly the omnipotent UOD

  15. #55
    SG Enthusiast jayyy's Avatar
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    I checked it. If you have your education degree, and a masters degree, after 22 years of service new york state will pay as much as 80,000 for a teacher. But keep in mind, those teachers are on the verge of retirement at that point, and about to be replaced by someone starting around 39,000. And by that point credential-wise and experience-wise they're as good as teachers get.

    http://www.teachny.com/salary_new/Sa...20Teachers.htm

  16. #56
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why we should cut money on education

    Originally posted by Blisster
    Show me ONE public school teacher at the grammar through high-school level that makes 100k. no ****in way. PHd University professors make ~$120,000, not public school teachers, anywhere.
    Yeah, really. And in the states government subsidies have been cut to private universities so much that a degree is going to wind up costing something like $100,000. There's a REAL black hole for you.


    In canada even the best universities are $3000 a year, because of subsidies. The government appreciates its in the economy's interest to have an educated workforce.

    With the rising cost of education in the states, there's a prediction that there'll be a major shortage of skilled labor in twenty years. Even with those massive crippling loans, a good education just won't be affordable for most people. (In contrast thats one reason the EU is so strong right now, because its workforce is so well-educated. Even without the UK buying into it, the euro is already at 95% the value of the dollar and going)

    One option is letting graduates from other countries into the US to fill those jobs. You already see a lot of that. Micrsoft has been hassling the government to let in more immigrant programmers.

    The other possibility is that big corporations, which currently just use the third world for sweatshops, simple labor, etc, will start moving skilled labor overseas

  17. #57
    ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ ♫♪ downhill's Avatar
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    The other possibility is that big corporations, which currently just use the third world for sweatshops, simple labor, etc, will start moving skilled labor overseas
    It's already being done......HP, Micron, Dell.....India is hungry and has a highly skilled workforce that wouldn't mind eating daily..
    The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, and prejudices to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejudices can kill and suspicion can destroy and a thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all of its own for the children and the children yet unborn and the pity of it is that these things cannot be confined to the Twilight Zone.

  18. #58
    SG Enthusiast jayyy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by downhill
    It's already being done......HP, Micron, Dell.....India is hungry and has a highly skilled workforce that wouldn't mind eating daily..
    Its sad, because the US government has shaped most of its policy in the past twenty years for the benefit of the owners of those corporations, the argument being that the wealth would "trickle down" to the average guy. But now those corporations have sprouted wings and become international. They could wind up leaving the domestic US in the same shape as poorer countries.

    While theres massively more wealth around, the US has cut social programs to the point where theres this huge rich-poor gap, its basically approaching a mega-rich third-world pattern. Its feasible the rich "head" could detach from the body of the riff-raff, and leave the US a place like arkansas, a texas without the oil (no offense to arkansans, but you've got to admit you don't have the best quality of living)

    Why wouldn't that happen? Conservatives basically admit its best if government works for the corporate sector. No-one holds them accountable for lay-offs or downsizing, its always a matter of curing the economy as a whole with lower interest rates and (of course) tax-cuts.

    But with these guys being as self-interested as they admittedly are, what would stop them from just moving the whole shop overseas if it was in their economic interest to do so? And if Europe and other countries are putting all this money into public education and university subsidies so that they have more skilled workforces, eventually it will be.

  19. #59
    SG MVP Lefty's Avatar
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    Only on election day does someone raise up a 15 year old thread. Time for me to buy some new underwear.

  20. #60
    Moderator David's Avatar
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    The thread does make for a great read. Certainly, SG had some gems

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